The Matter of Authority (LDS)

[FireOfTheCovenant]

There were the "three witnesses" who saw both the Angel and the Plates.
There were many other events of Angels and Revelations in which others were involved in.

What makes the Churches claims even stronger is that about half of the witnesses to various events even left the Church, though most eventually came back, some however didn't. Yet NOT A SINGLE ONE ever denied any of their experiences related to the Restoration.

The witnesses later explained that they had a vision or viewed the plates through the eye of faith.

 

[ananda]

You are confused.... I would recommend you read what was said more carefully.
It doesn't say the "temple" will be dedicated by the "hand of Joseph Smith", it states that the "land" or the "temple lot" will be dedicated by him.

It was....

When and where was the city and temple dedicated at the hand of Joseph Smith?

 

[A New Dawn]

The actual "date" wasn't recorded, but there are plenty of "story's" of the event etc. occurring. Would recommend you study the FULL history of the matter, instead of the version of our enemy's.

Real historians don't take sides.

Perhaps you should check out the real history via the MHA or JWHA. You'll find members from both churches on the boards of both institutions and articles written by members of both churches as well as articles written by people who are not members of either church.

So much for a non-biased answer.

 

[ananda]

People who are visited privately don't claim that that knowledge was meant for anyone but themselves.

 

[cupid dave]

Forget using the Bible, just read LDS history. That's all the evidence you could ever need

Is there anything in the BOM that specifies the sexual promiscuity that was practiced by Smith and those men who came into power with amd after him?

I believe the mormons today are prundent and practice sexuaal restrain, evidence good moral conduct and do mnot condine nor support promiscuity.

Was Smith et al inventing "spiritual" sex as if it was different from libidinal osychic impulses behind all sex totally as a fabrication without BOM support>
Or does BOM contradict the New Testament???

 

[A New Dawn]

<edit>

All of Israel knew that God "lived" on that mountain.

The thing is, the "private visitations" you speak of in the Bible did not encourage people to move away from the established truth. They did try to bring them back to the revealed truth, not go off on a new set of "truths".

 

[Conor B]

There were no witnesses to Joseph Smith's original alleged encounter with God the Father and the Son.

Here is a transcription of the handwritten account of Joseph Smith's First Vision. I made a mistake in my earlier post on the topic. Several accounts of the first vision claim that he saw an angel, Joseph's handwritten account has him seeing "The Lord". I should know better than to cite anything from memory alone. Sorry.

You can see a scanned copy of the original at http://www.utlm.org/images/firstvisionjosephsmith1832large.jpg

Here is the typescript of the pertinent portion of his vision including typo's and crossouts:

marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath thewise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could reioice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart about that time my mother and but after many days

 

[ananda]

To further cloud the issue there are roughly eight different accounts of this "First Vision" all of which vary wildly from the "Official" first vision the church uses. I have a scanned copy of the first known account of Joseph's vision in his own handwriting which does not mention seeing either the Father or the Son but an angel instead. This handwritten recollection of his first vision matches the early recollections of his family, friends, and earliest LDS history. I'm sure I'll be viciously attacked or slandered by LDS apologists for mentioning this but such is life on Unorthodox Theology.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[Conor B]

Forget using the Bible, just read LDS history. That's all the evidence you could ever need

That's for sure!!!

Even reading Histories of the church written by upstanding church members such as B.H. Roberts six volume history of the Church or Richard Lyman Bushman's "Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling" are enough to demonstrate to any thinking person that this LDS tree produces some pretty rotten fruit indeed.

 

[Conor B]

Here is the earliest known attempt at an &#8216;official&#8217; recounting of the &#8216;First Vision, from History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook 1, pp.2,3, in the handwriting of Joseph Smith:

1832 Joseph Smith History, Page 1

The pertinent portion of the transcription follows:

&#8230; thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the situation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind my mind become exceedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that <mankind> did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ &#8230;
marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath the wise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart &#8230;

As you can see young Joseph's accounts definitely do not agree with what is today's official version of the "First Vision". Even a cursory study of LDS history shows that Joseph Smith's stories flip fasted than even Mitt Romney's political positions.

If you cannot even trust the founder or a religion to keep his story straight how can you trust his successors or even the religion itself?

 

[ldsfaqs]

What exactly did he "flip" on.....?

Omitting information from a story is not the same thing as "flipping".
I tell story's all the time from my past of serious things that occurred, and depending on the audience or person I'm speaking to, I only "emphasis" certain parts, and don't mention others.

That doesn't make Joseph a liar or a flipfloper, or making things up.

From the very beginning it was know he saw the Father and the Son by those around him. Certain audiences yes, he didn't reveal that fully, but for good reason. Claiming you've seen the Father and the Son is a serious thing, especially back then.

There are no actual contradictions in Joseph's tellings. And they are no more false than the Bible is false for there being missing information from the Gospels and tellings of Biblical events.

Again, more Double Standards!

 

[ldsfaqs]

Also, why are you going to IRR....?

Our enemy's use a little truth to tell great lies about us, thus why are you following such low class people?
They don't tell the full truth at all on issues concerning us, and they omit important facts to make their slanderous judgments.

Do you go to Fanatical Islam for the "truth" about the Jews???

You should know better to not go to bigots and liars for the truth about a people or group.
Even the Jewish Anti-Defamation Leagues have condemned the works and acts of our enemy's.
Thus, why do you go to the wicked who even your own people condemn?

 

[Son of Zadok]

Very well, I accept that there were individuals who claimed to be first-hand witnesses. However, this is only the first test which YHVH Elohim taught us to identify false prophets.

Secondly, did this following prophecy come to pass? Was a LDS city & temple built in Missouri when Joseph Smith was alive (D&C 84:1-5), and was it dedicated by Joseph Smith's hand?

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. 2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
​

Does the above testimony fulfill the requirements of YHVH Elohim as He stated in Deu 18:22?

&#1488;&#1513;&#1512; &#1497;&#1491;&#1489;&#1512; &#1492;&#1504;&#1489;&#1497;&#1488; &#1489;&#1513;&#1501; &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; &#1493;&#1500;&#1488;&#1470;&#1497;&#1492;&#1497;&#1492; &#1492;&#1491;&#1489;&#1512; &#1493;&#1500;&#1488; &#1497;&#1489;&#1493;&#1488; &#1492;&#1493;&#1488; &#1492;&#1491;&#1489;&#1512; &#1488;&#1513;&#1512; &#1500;&#1488;&#1470;&#1491;&#1489;&#1512;&#1493; &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; &#1489;&#1494;&#1491;&#1493;&#1503; &#1491;&#1489;&#1512;&#1493; &#1492;&#1504;&#1489;&#1497;&#1488; &#1500;&#1488; &#1514;&#1490;&#1493;&#1512; &#1502;&#1502;&#1504;&#1493;&#1475; &#1505;

When a prophet speaketh in the Name of YHVH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which YHVH hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
​

Scripture supports the idea that all new doctrine must conform to the authority of the Torah: (Isa 8:20)

&#1500;&#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1492; &#1493;&#1500;&#1514;&#1506;&#1493;&#1491;&#1492; &#1488;&#1501;&#1470;&#1500;&#1488; &#1497;&#1488;&#1502;&#1512;&#1493; &#1499;&#1491;&#1489;&#1512; &#1492;&#1494;&#1492; &#1488;&#1513;&#1512; &#1488;&#1497;&#1503;&#1470;&#1500;&#1493; &#1513;&#1495;&#1512;&#1475;

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
​

What ever reason you have to believe in Jesus when he spoke Matt 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, til all these things be fulfilled." Trust that same understanding to believe Joseph Smith.

Son of Zadok

 

[Son of Zadok]

Here is the earliest known attempt at an &#8216;official&#8217; recounting of the &#8216;First Vision, from History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook 1, pp.2,3, in the handwriting of Joseph Smith:

1832 Joseph Smith History, Page 1

The pertinent portion of the transcription follows:

&#8230; thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the situation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind my mind become exceedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that <mankind> did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ &#8230;
marvilous even in the likeness of him who created him (them) and when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed well hath the wise man said the (it is a) fool (that) saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity and when I considered all these things and that (that) being seeketh such to worship him as worship him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in (the) attitude of calling upon the Lord (in the 16th year of my age) a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the (Lord) opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph (my son) thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy (way) walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life (behold) the world lieth in sin and at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned asside from the gospel and keep not (my) commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to th[e]ir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which (hath) been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud (clothed) in the glory of my Father and my soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me but could find none that would believe the hevnly vision nevertheless I pondered these things in my heart &#8230;

As you can see young Joseph's accounts definitely do not agree with what is today's official version of the "First Vision". Even a cursory study of LDS history shows that Joseph Smith's stories flip fasted than even Mitt Romney's political positions.

If you cannot even trust the founder or a religion to keep his story straight how can you trust his successors or even the religion itself?

Would you say that current versions of the Bible do not have any similar disagreements with ancient documents? If you hold the Bible to the same standard then I think you have a point - if not - would you define your understanding of hypocrite for me?

Son of Zadok

 

[Son of Zadok]

That's for sure!!!

Even reading Histories of the church written by upstanding church members such as B.H. Roberts six volume history of the Church or Richard Lyman Bushman's "Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling" are enough to demonstrate to any thinking person that this LDS tree produces some pretty rotten fruit indeed.

With what historical Christian movement are you making your comparisons?

Son of Zadok

 

[FireOfTheCovenant]

Also, why are you going to IRR....?

Our enemy's use a little truth to tell great lies about us, thus why are you following such low class people?
They don't tell the full truth at all on issues concerning us, and they omit important facts to make their slanderous judgments.

Do you go to Fanatical Islam for the "truth" about the Jews???

You should know better to not go to bigots and liars for the truth about a people or group.
Even the Jewish Anti-Defamation Leagues have condemned the works and acts of our enemy's.
Thus, why do you go to the wicked who even your own people condemn?

There's no problem with the sites that were cited. Each one shows a scanned copy of Joseph Smith's writing. I don't see how that could be "omit[ing] important facts".

I love the 'would you go to McDonald's to learn about Burger King, etc' straw man. Of course I would! And I would go to Wendy's, Subway, Carl's Jr. as well! Any logical person would consider all sources when making a big decision like "eternal truth". Going to the LDS church to learn about LDS is only going to give you glowing praise about it. Maybe it's time to rethink that little argument.

re - Joseph Smith's many first vision accounts. I believe the handwritten 1832 account is in JS's journal. The fact that he didn't even write the "official" account in his own diary speaks volumes to me.

 

[ananda]

What ever reason you have to believe in Jesus when he spoke Matt 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, til all these things be fulfilled." Trust that same understanding to believe Joseph Smith.

Son of Zadok

There is a big difference between what Messiah said, and what Joseph Smith claimed. In Mt 24:22, Messiah stated that "those days shall be shortened," identifying the time when the "end of the age" (24:3) will arrive. That was the generation identified when He stated "this generation" in 24:34. Note that He did not say "your generation."

On the other hand, Joseph Smith claimed that a city & temple will be built in Missouri dedicated with his own hand. Since his hand was required to dedicate it, D&C 84:4,5 was referring to his generation. Obviously the city & temple was not built in his generation; this prophecy failed marvelously.

 

[A New Dawn]

What exactly did he "flip" on.....?

Omitting information from a story is not the same thing as "flipping".
I tell story's all the time from my past of serious things that occurred, and depending on the audience or person I'm speaking to, I only "emphasis" certain parts, and don't mention others.

That doesn't make Joseph a liar or a flipfloper, or making things up.

From the very beginning it was know he saw the Father and the Son by those around him. Certain audiences yes, he didn't reveal that fully, but for good reason. Claiming you've seen the Father and the Son is a serious thing, especially back then.

There are no actual contradictions in Joseph's tellings. And they are no more false than the Bible is false for there being missing information from the Gospels and tellings of Biblical events.

Again, more Double Standards!

This is all a cop-out. I'm sorry, but if someone saw God, why would he leave him out of the story at any time?????? I mean, yes, smaller things I could see him waffling on, but not the biggie.

 

[A New Dawn]

Would you say that current versions of the Bible do not have any similar disagreements with ancient documents? If you hold the Bible to the same standard then I think you have a point - if not - would you define your understanding of hypocrite for me?

Son of Zadok

If you look at all the translations of the Bible, except for the most very recent that literally changes the meaning of things and is not accepted by any but the most very liberal, then, no, the Bible does not have similar problems. Even though there might be some differences depending on definitions of a word, all the versions of the Bible that we have today are translated directly from the Greek. There have been a few rare instances where errors were made, or things inserted from one manuscript that wasn't in another, but the ancient manuscripts largely agree with each other, and considering the sheer number of manuscripts that have been found, that is astounding. So when 6 or 7 versions of the same "vision" have been found and they are all significantly different from each other, no, I'm sorry, there is no similarity between the Bible and the first vision.

 

[truthseeker32]

Can you share what your reasons were for leaving the LDS church to begin with, and how those reasons are no longer valid?

I left the LDS Church because I stopped believing in anything. However over time, due to my studies in philosophy and own personal experiences that has changed. I am amazed by the amount of people who have been converted to atheism by Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris,and/ or Dennet. If you are going to be an atheist at least be one because of Nietzche or Hume.

My concerns about the LDS faith are still valid. However, what I have discovered in my studying of other faiths is that other religions have their own fires to put out, and if they don't they aren't really claiming anything. All religions have less virtuous characters. The one thing that does stand out to me about the LDS faith is its lack of mandatory dogmatism and compatibility with protest and process theology. When I look at the world and the universe it seems a lot more like it was created by a God that is not infinitely powerful.