The Matter of Authority (LDS)

[Skip Sampson]

All religions cite an authority for their doctrines. Christian denominations cite the Bible alone, Catholics cite Scripture and tradition, and so forth.

Mormons and JW's go beyond both of those, yet insist their doctrines find firm Biblical support. This thread is to discuss the Mormon claims as to how the Bible provides the basis of their doctrines.

My personal view is that Mormonism is chained to the odd doctrines of Joseph Smith, and, currently, to the official proclamations of the current President of the church. Having said that, I'd like to give our LDS participants some time to show how and where the Bible supports the key doctrines of their church. Cordially, Skip.

 

[ldsfaqs]

It might be easiest if you indicate something of LDS theology/practices that you think is not Biblical or doesn't have support in historical Christianity. Then we can address it. Because nearly all of our beliefs and practices have Biblical support and/or historical support, so it's kinda hard to separate the two.

We can then address first if it is even LDS the claim, and then we can address what support we have for it.

 

[truthseeker32]

I am a former Mormon considering returning to the fold because all these claims about the LDS faith being "unbiblical" seem to be unfounded. I haven't heard a good argument against the LDS faith that can't be used against any other religion.

 

[Skip Sampson]

It might be easiest if you indicate something of LDS theology/practices that you think is not Biblical or doesn't have support in historical Christianity.

Start with the LDS President as prophet on earth. What is the LDS view on his role and upon what authority does the claim rest? Cordially, Skip.

 

[ldsfaqs]

Start with the LDS President as prophet on earth. What is the LDS view on his role and upon what authority does the claim rest? Cordially, Skip.

Sure, the same thing existed with Peter in the New Testament.
The LDS Prophet is the Head Apostle, likewise Peter was the Head Apostle.

His authority comes directly from Peter, James & John, the original First Presidency of the Church. They came as Angels and bestowed that authority onto Joseph and Oliver Cowdery.

I also have my line of authority, which is where I also get my authority to proclaim and defend the Gospel.

 

[ananda]

If LDS claims to rest its authority on the "Christian Bible," then I'd like to know this:

Per Torah, no teaching should be received as doctrine without two or more first-hand witnesses, based on Elohim's & Messiah's requirements to establish any matter (Deu 17:6, Deu 19:15, Num 35:30, Mt 18:16, Jn 5:31, Isa 41:21). Also, any teacher who contradicts Torah (e.g. "the law is gone") is not from Elohim (Mt 5:17-19 & Isa 8:20).

Who were the two or more first-hand witnesses to Joseph Smith's alleged encounters with the angel?

 

[ldsfaqs]

If LDS claims to rest its authority on the "Christian Bible," then I'd like to know this:

Per Torah, no teaching should be received as doctrine without two or more first-hand witnesses, based on Elohim's & Messiah's requirements to establish any matter (Deu 17:6, Deu 19:15, Num 35:30, Mt 18:16, Jn 5:31, Isa 41:21). Also, any teacher who contradicts Torah (e.g. "the law is gone") is not from Elohim (Mt 5:17-19 & Isa 8:20).

Who were the two or more first-hand witnesses to Joseph Smith's alleged encounters with the angel?

There were the "three witnesses" who saw both the Angel and the Plates.
There were many other events of Angels and Revelations in which others were involved in.

What makes the Churches claims even stronger is that about half of the witnesses to various events even left the Church, though most eventually came back, some however didn't. Yet NOT A SINGLE ONE ever denied any of their experiences related to the Restoration.

Your question is a good one, and it's one of the many reasons why the Church is true compared to other religions, it's because it matches fully every aspect required as "the Church" was established in past times Biblically speaking, with the revelations, Angels, scripture, witnesses, etc. etc.

Your question also is good because there's another Christian in another thread who's trying to claim that one of our Prophets actually taught a "doctrine" when it never was accepted as a doctrine, and was even denied as such. There was no revelation from God (scripture kind), there was not other witnesses and Prophets sustaining it, on and on, just like you state. It's NOT the Biblical practice, nor LDS practice to except any viewpoint by someone as actual "doctrine" of The Church.

Oh, one other thing..... LDS don't rest our authority on "scripture", our authority comes directly from God by Revelation and the visitation of Angels, including the Father and Son themselves. Scripture is only ONE of the four-fold processes of determining truth. Those processes are Prophets, Scripture, Holy Ghost, and common consent. These are the Lords checks and balances, not simply scripture or some mans interpretation of it.

 

[ananda]

There were the "three witnesses" who saw both the Angel and the Plates.

Very well, I accept that there were individuals who claimed to be first-hand witnesses. However, this is only the first test which YHVH Elohim taught us to identify false prophets.

Secondly, did this following prophecy come to pass? Was a LDS city & temple built in Missouri when Joseph Smith was alive (D&C 84:1-5), and was it dedicated by Joseph Smith's hand?

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. 2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
​

Does the above testimony fulfill the requirements of YHVH Elohim as He stated in Deu 18:22?

אשר ידבר הנביא בשם יהוה ולא־יהיה הדבר ולא יבוא הוא הדבר אשר לא־דברו יהוה בזדון דברו הנביא לא תגור ממנו׃ ס

When a prophet speaketh in the Name of YHVH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which YHVH hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
​

LDS don't rest our authority on "scripture", our authority comes directly from God by Revelation and the visitation of Angels, including the Father and Son themselves.

Scripture supports the idea that all new doctrine must conform to the authority of the Torah: (Isa 8:20)

לתורה ולתעודה אם־לא יאמרו כדבר הזה אשר אין־לו שחר׃

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. ​

 

[ldsfaqs]

These three links will show you the full facts and truth about the questions you raise:

Joseph Smith/Alleged false prophecies/Independence temple to be built "in this generation" - FAIRMormon

Joseph Smith/Alleged false prophecies/The prophetic test in Deuteronomy 18 - FAIRMormon

Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets - FAIRMormon

 

[cupid dave]

All religions cite an authority for their doctrines. Christian denominations cite the Bible alone, Catholics cite Scripture and tradition, and so forth.

Mormons and JW's go beyond both of those, yet insist their doctrines find firm Biblical support. This thread is to discuss the Mormon claims as to how the Bible provides the basis of their doctrines.

My personal view is that Mormonism is chained to the odd doctrines of Joseph Smith, and, currently, to the official proclamations of the current President of the church. Having said that, I'd like to give our LDS participants some time to show how and where the Bible supports the key doctrines of their church. Cordially, Skip.

Mormons have written their book as did the muslims and the Jews (Talmud).
And, of course, the Christikans are stuck with their New Testament.

This is great because everyone is stuck with these authorities so we know what each argument actually is.

This is now the argument they are both required to defend and also are "stuck" with when hard places are attacked as opposed to the authority of the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[ananda]

These three links will show you the full facts and truth about the questions you raise ...

Thank you for providing the links; none of them address the issue I raised about the city/temple being "dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith". Obviously he is dead now, so he cannot fulfill this "prophecy".

 

[cupid dave]

It might be easiest if you indicate something of LDS theology/practices that you think is not Biblical or doesn't have support in historical Christianity. Then we can address it. Because nearly all of our beliefs and practices have Biblical support and/or historical support, so it's kinda hard to separate the two.

We can then address first if it is even LDS the claim, and then we can address what support we have for it.

The mormons will have trouble with their rejection of Trinity because it denies that Christ is Truth as he says, "I am the Truth,..."

Truth of course has a Father in the ever unfolding Reality that creates what is true.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am a former Mormon considering returning to the fold because all these claims about the LDS faith being "unbiblical" seem to be unfounded. I haven't heard a good argument against the LDS faith that can't be used against any other religion.

Can you share what your reasons were for leaving the LDS church to begin with, and how those reasons are no longer valid?

 

[A New Dawn]

Sure, the same thing existed with Peter in the New Testament.
The LDS Prophet is the Head Apostle, likewise Peter was the Head Apostle.

His authority comes directly from Peter, James & John, the original First Presidency of the Church. They came as Angels and bestowed that authority onto Joseph and Oliver Cowdery.

I also have my line of authority, which is where I also get my authority to proclaim and defend the Gospel.

According to the story, there is no history of Peter, James and John coming to restore the (Melchesisic) priesthood. That just appeared out of nowhere one day. Pretty concerning since there are actual stories supporting how everything else came into being.

 

[A New Dawn]

If LDS claims to rest its authority on the "Christian Bible," then I'd like to know this:

Per Torah, no teaching should be received as doctrine without two or more first-hand witnesses, based on Elohim's & Messiah's requirements to establish any matter (Deu 17:6, Deu 19:15, Num 35:30, Mt 18:16, Jn 5:31, Isa 41:21). Also, any teacher who contradicts Torah (e.g. "the law is gone") is not from Elohim (Mt 5:17-19 & Isa 8:20).

Who were the two or more first-hand witnesses to Joseph Smith's alleged encounters with the angel?

There were no witnesses to Joseph Smith's original alleged encounter with God the Father and the Son.

 

[cupid dave]

Thank you for providing the links; none of them address the issue I raised about the city/temple being "dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith". Obviously he is dead now, so he cannot fulfill this "prophecy".

I do not know if Smith was alive when the claim was made that the New Jerusalem would appear in the center of America, but I do agree that is will be the case since the twelve pouter walls of the Cube city once in Western Europe will have been opened up wide:

 

[ananda]

There were no witnesses to Joseph Smith's original alleged encounter with God the Father and the Son.

Thank you for confirming what I suspected all along.

 

[ldsfaqs]

Thank you for providing the links; none of them address the issue I raised about the city/temple being "dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith". Obviously he is dead now, so he cannot fulfill this "prophecy".

You are confused.... I would recommend you read what was said more carefully.
It doesn't say the "temple" will be dedicated by the "hand of Joseph Smith", it states that the "land" or the "temple lot" will be dedicated by him.

It was....

 

[ldsfaqs]

According to the story, there is no history of Peter, James and John coming to restore the (Melchesisic) priesthood. That just appeared out of nowhere one day. Pretty concerning since there are actual stories supporting how everything else came into being.

The actual "date" wasn't recorded, but there are plenty of "story's" of the event etc. occurring. Would recommend you study the FULL history of the matter, instead of the version of our enemy's.

 

[FireOfTheCovenant]

I am a former Mormon considering returning to the fold because all these claims about the LDS faith being "unbiblical" seem to be unfounded. I haven't heard a good argument against the LDS faith that can't be used against any other religion.

Forget using the Bible, just read LDS history. That's all the evidence you could ever need