The Man Christ Jesus

[Cappadocious]

Simon, I'm going to confine my responses to Aner in this thread; any more becomes too convoluted.

 

[Aner]

Simon

Let's make it simple. I provided several texts that explicitly, formally teach that Jesus is a man. A man is a complete entity that can fully independently function WITHOUT a divinely incarnated entity. The Jesus of scripture can.

Can your Jesus do that?

Aner

Cap

Your limitation is understandable - I have long learned that this subject can quickly get WAY out of hand with no good being done by the effort. I don't have time for that. However, I may, so to speak, be able to let you off the hook since I have no idea where to go with your last post. There is nothing regarding scriptural text in your last post. You have simply provided your own cogitations which I am open to believing may rival Einstein himself; however, when it comes to God in relationship with others, I only work with scriptural text.

One possible movement forward is your response on to the above quoted post I provided to Simon which succinctly clarifies the issue. As an addendum, I am posting the snippet from Schaff's Church History which elaborates this exact same issue. A couple of readings will painfully amplify the issue of the denial of the man Christ Jesus.

 

[Cappadocious]

There is nothing regarding scriptural text in your last post.

If you disagree with my definition of deity, then would you care to propose a different definition? There are words in the Scriptures that you can draw from, like θεῖος, θειότης, and Θεὸς. How do you define deity differently?

Furthermore, do you believe that person is identical to consciousness?

 

[Aner]

If you disagree with my definition of deity, then would you care to propose a different definition? There are words in the Scriptures that you can draw from, like θεῖος, θειότης, and Θεὸς. How do you define deity differently?

Furthermore, do you believe that person is identical to consciousness?

Fair enough response - I appreciate the thoughtfulness.

re: Deity
I do not find a need to define it. As I walk with God in Christ by His Spirit, I find no compelling reason to have such a definition. Obviously Elijah did not need a definition of deity to call fire out of heaven. In light of the essentially complete absence of the power of God in the church today, I am comfortable with Elijah's approach.

HOWEVER, as a side note, Col 2:9 was shoved down my throat the other day (yup, that was the tenor in which it was done). My question was simple - so what does that mean??? Why not just say Jesus is God if that is what Paul intended to communicate? Why was it IN Him - rather than Him Himself, etc. Regardless, it did set me to reflecting on the meaning of θειότης (thanks for the Gk text!). I am not sure that I got very far but I tending towards the sense that Jesus had when He said - "When you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" (hmmm...sounds a bit like Modalism on the face doesn't it... ). I have not taken it further than that because I have not had to.

re: Person/Consciousness
Again, I don't use these categories per se. These are artificial categories created by a combination of philosophers and churchman to hijack the clear text of the Word of God. I have only forced myself to use them to interact with trinitarians/hypostatic unionists. As I dig in - I find they really have no clue what they are talking about but just throw around terms they were taught in Discipleship 101, e.g. "Jesus is fully man". I have had to at least understanding the existence of the two categories - nature and person - to understand the anhypostasis of the humanity of Christ (which is really the whole issue that we are discussing - I believe I made that clear above).

The bottom line - there is a God in heaven ek of whom are all things. He is the God and Father of my Lord Jesus Christ - His Son. If I was to categorize, I would use the word "entity" or "being" - with consciousness/personness/awareness/nature or whatever that there is - all intact. This is ALL I see in scripture - and certainly this in itself is more than the 95% of the uneducated and illiterate early Christians had to work with in their walk with God. Everything is really just a joke and a waste of time that takes us away from the ministry of Christ starting with the widows and orphans.

Aner

 

[Cappadocious]

re: Deity
I do not find a need to define it. As I walk with God in Christ by His Spirit, I find no compelling reason to have such a definition.

You have used "deity," a term that is not found in the Scriptures. It is a word that Christians did fine without for several hundred years; but it is a word that is important to you, and you use it as a technical term. You have asked me whether or not Jesus is 'deity.' In order for me to be able to answer your question truthfully, I need to know what you mean by 'deity'. Otherwise, how could I answer you?

If I was to categorize, I would use the word "entity" or "being" - with consciousness/personness/awareness/nature or whatever that there is - all intact.

I believe that Jesus is a man who has a human mind, brain, consciousness, will, operation, body, soul, spirit, etc. Given those things, do you think I'm referring to a human being, or not?

 

[Simonline]

Simon

Let's make it simple. I provided several texts that explicitly, formally teach that Jesus is a man. A man is a complete entity that can fully independently function WITHOUT a divinely incarnated entity. The Jesus of scripture can.

Can your Jesus do that?

Aner

 

[Simonline]

Simon

Let's make it simple. I provided several texts that explicitly, formally teach that Jesus is a man. A man is a complete entity that can fully independently function WITHOUT a divinely incarnated entity. The Jesus of scripture can.

Can your Jesus do that?

Aner

Don't patronize me. I am not stupid.

The Scriptures reveal that the Messiah/Christ is an authentic human creature [i.e. Jesus of Nazareth] even whilst he is also the Divine Creator YHWH. The fact that He is God incarnate as a man does not in any way diminish or negate his humanity. The Messiah/Christ of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures is ABSOLUTELY NOT just a regular human creature. He is YHWH Himself incarnate as the man Jesus of Nazareth. Just because all other men are only men and are not God incarnate as a man does NOT mean that God cannot incarnate as a man (which is what you are actually insisting upon). The Scriptures clearly reveal that God has indeed incarnated as a man in order to redeem His Creation and God is calling all men to repent of their sin, believe the truth which He has revealed and live by faith in that truth from first to last. Anyone who refuses to do this is in danger of spending forever separated from God in the everlasting lake of fire.

I am not going to keep dancing around the mulberry bush with you simply because you are refusing to believe the whole truth. You will simply have to suffer the catastrophic consequences of your wilful unbelief when you finally stand before YHWH Himself incarnate as the Messiah on His great white throne.

Simonline.

 

[Aner]

You have used "deity," a term that is not found in the Scriptures. It is a word that Christians did fine without for several hundred years; but it is a word that is important to you, and you use it as a technical term. You have asked me whether or not Jesus is 'deity.' In order for me to be able to answer your question truthfully, I need to know what you mean by 'deity'. Otherwise, how could I answer you?

I believe that Jesus is a man who has a human mind, brain, consciousness, will, operation, body, soul, spirit, etc. Given those things, do you think I'm referring to a human being, or not?

Cap

Reasonable points.

re: Deity
I used it only because that it adherents to the hypostatic union use this and I assumed you would without further need for definition. As you noted, Christians did fine without the term. I agree. Let's dispense with the term as it is not the focus - the man Christ Jesus is. I do appreciate your effort at precision - commendable!

re: Jesus is a man with....
OK - what I am trying to figure out is whether your Jesus is missing anything from what you and I have. A list of the positive's is obscuring this issue. Let's approach answering this by returning to the question of the OP - and which I expressed better in my post to Simon below. Can you provide an answer?

Simon

Let's make it simple. I provided several texts that explicitly, formally teach that Jesus is a man. A man is a complete entity that can fully independently function WITHOUT a divinely incarnated entity. The Jesus of scripture can.

Can your Jesus do that [fully, independently function just like all human beings WITHOUT a divinely incarnated entity]?

 

[Cappadocious]

OK - what I am trying to figure out is whether your Jesus is missing anything from what you and I have.

Sin, for one.

Can your Jesus do that [fully, independently function just like all human beings WITHOUT a divinely incarnated entity]?

My Jesus is a man, a real human being, who is identical to a divine entity. Once again, the question of whether not he can function without himself seems nonsensical; you certainly can't function without yourself, and you're quite human.

I take it the position you are reacting against says something like this: A divine entity attached a particular human nature to itself. That nature was named Jesus, and the divine entity causes Jesus (in your language, 'makes Jesus function') to interact with the world and appear human. But the entity in question is still just a divine entity.

Is that the position you are reacting against?

 

[Aner]

Don't patronize me. I am not stupid.

The Scriptures reveal that the Messiah/Christ is an authentic human creature [i.e. Jesus of Nazareth] even whilst he is also the Divine Creator YHWH. The fact that He is God incarnate as a man does not in any way diminish or negate his humanity. The Messiah/Christ of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures is ABSOLUTELY NOT just a regular human creature. He is YHWH Himself incarnate as the man Jesus of Nazareth. Just because all other men are only men and are not God incarnate as a man does NOT mean that God cannot incarnate as a man (which is what you are actually insisting upon). The Scriptures clearly reveal that God has indeed incarnated as a man in order to redeem His Creation and God is calling all men to repent of their sin, believe the truth which He has revealed and live by faith in that truth from first to last. Anyone who refuses to do this is in danger of spending forever separated from God in the everlasting lake of fire.

Simon

With all due respect, I did not patronize you. If any comment appeared otherwise, I can assure it was totally unintentional. We have had a quite respectful conversation - that is the only way I intend to communicate.

As a preliminary comment, your thesis that Jesus is simply an incarnation of Jehovah is a religious tradition that is completely contrary to the entire, painfully obvious sense of scripture. Just because ignorant churchman followed tradition (as they explicitly said they did at the Councils) rather than independently exegeting the Word of God (as we are called to do) does not ergo make that tradition the Word of God. Heb 2:11 alone demonstrates that Jesus is not Jehovah since Jesus is explicitly described as being created (Greek). Regardless, I don't want to get lost on the deity side of Jesus - my focus is on the man Christ Jesus.

Again - can you answer the question of whether Jesus is man - by being able to fully and independently function WITHOUT an incarnated deity (just like you and I and all men) - as the scripture clearly and repeatedly teach that He is?

Let's consider just two texts

1Cor15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
21 ἐπειδὴ γὰρ δι’ ἀνθρώπου θάνατος, καὶ δι’ ἀνθρώπου ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν·

In this text, Paul states that Jesus must absolutely be a genuine man just as Adam and, extension, you and I. Adam was NOT an incarnated deity.

ITim2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
5 εἷς γὰρ θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς,

Paul is clearly not referencing an incarnated divine being as the mediator between man and God (unless your hermenuetic allows you to make up any word meaning you choose to fit a pre-determined theology - essentially playing word-games with the Word of God as all cults do....). Paul is specifically stating that Jesus is a man just like all of man-kind (valid hermeneutics requires the use of the standard meaning of a word unless the context clearly indicates otherwise. This context clearly and evidently affirms the standard use of the term ἄνθρωπος. BTW - the Arians love your re-definition of words to fit a pre-determined approach to solving didactic texts that don't fit your theology.

I am sorry if a beloved tradition does not square with the Word of God. I am not wanting to make you feel bad. You can keep your tradition if you want - but your Jesus is a VERY different Jesus than the man Christ Jesus who is now sitting at the right hand of God.

Sincerely,
In the Lord Jesus Christ,

Aner

 

[Aner]

Sin, for one.


My Jesus is a man, a real human being, who is identical to a divine entity. Once again, the question of whether not he can function without himself seems nonsensical; you certainly can't function without yourself, and you're quite human.

I take it the position you are reacting against says something like this: A divine entity attached a particular human nature to itself. That nature was named Jesus, and the divine entity causes Jesus (in your language, 'makes Jesus function') to interact with the world and appear human. But the entity in question is still just a divine entity.

Is that the position you are reacting against?

Cap -

With all due respect, the notion that a "real human being" is identical to "divine entity" is a complete oxymoron. What you are saying is on the level of "green" is "blue" and essentially words can mean anything you want (a well known cult practice). Reality, of course, is that there is NO human being that identical to a divine entity (unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by divine entity - as you did introduce the term "divine" without a precise definition... ). Is Adam a divine entity? Jesus necessarily was exactly like Adam - see note regarding ICor15:21 below. Are you and I divine entities? Jesus was exactly like us (Heb2:17). Are you a "divine entity".

1Cor15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
21 ἐπειδὴ γὰρ δι’ ἀνθρώπου θάνατος, καὶ δι’ ἀνθρώπου ἀνάστασις νεκρῶν·

In this text, Paul states that Jesus must absolutely be a genuine man just as Adam and, extension, you and I. Adam was NOT an incarnated deity.

re: My reaction
You are essentially stating the basis of my reaction but from the opposite direction. My reaction is due to the fact that Messianic and Apostolic teaching clearly describes Jesus as a man just like you and I (I can provide a list of texts but I am sure you already are fully aware of them). A divine being actuating an impersonal human nature (anhypostasis) is NOT a man (unless you know of a few them wandering around...??). As a hermeneutic, we start with clear, formal, didactic scriptural statements and develop our exegesis accordingly. To read through the entirety of scripture and hold that Jesus is an incarnated divine entity is a complete brain-screw and totally unnecessary.

Aner

 

[Cappadocious]

Paul states that Jesus must absolutely be a genuine man just as Adam and, extension, you and I. Adam was NOT an incarnated deity.

I Agree that Jesus must be a genuine man just as the first Adam (that is, the Adam of genesis; Jesus is the last Adam per 1 Corinthians 15). I also agree that the first Adam was not an incarnate divine entity. But consider the following:

The Scripture does not say that Jesus is identical to the first Adam. If Jesus had every property in common with the first Adam, then Jesus would be identical to the first Adam. But Jesus is not identical to the first Adam, because the first Adam is the first Adam and Jesus is the last Adam. So Jesus does not have every property in common with the first Adam. Jesus must, then, be a genuine man and also be different from Adam in some respect.

Do you agree or disagree with my reasoning here? Why?

 

[Cappadocious]

With all due respect, the notion that a "real human being" is identical to "divine entity" is a complete oxymoron.

Foolishness to the Greeks, isn't it? But didn't you say that you don't rely on man's categories?

 

[Aner]

Foolishness to the Greeks, isn't it? But didn't you say that you don't rely on man's categories?

Cap - Neat trick.... I have been around longer than that. I rely on Bible categories. I Tim 2:5 is all you need to keep your man-God categories straight. However, all of scripture is clear - man is man - God is God. In fact, your efforts to philosophize your way through what is ultimately due to unfortunate traditions of exegesis (part of the genesis of the problem) is exactly the Greek approach whitch, with all due respect, is exactly what Paul warned us against in Colossians. We all know from which root Tertullian - Mr. Trinitas himself, sprang... Not Christ.

 

[Aner]

I Agree that Jesus must be a genuine man just as the first Adam (that is, the Adam of genesis; Jesus is the last Adam per 1 Corinthians 15). I also agree that the first Adam was not an incarnate divine entity. But consider the following:

The Scripture does not say that Jesus is identical to the first Adam. If Jesus had every property in common with the first Adam, then Jesus would be identical to the first Adam. But Jesus is not identical to the first Adam, because the first Adam is the first Adam and Jesus is the last Adam. So Jesus does not have every property in common with the first Adam. Jesus must, then, be a genuine man and also be different from Adam in some respect.

Do you agree or disagree with my reasoning here? Why?

Without being overly technical -

First Adam = "Not Incarnate Divine Entity"
Therefore, Last Adam = "Not Incarnate Divine Entity"

Cap - Admittedly, you have me lost. Why are you so desperate to deny that Jesus is a man - a real genuine man like you and I?? You go to such excruciating lengths instead of simply submitting yourself to the plain text.... Why?

 

[Cappadocious]

Mr. Trinitas himself, sprang... Not Christ.

You wouldn't be denying the Trinity outside of Controversial Theology, would you?

 

[Cappadocious]

First Adam = "Not Incarnate Divine Entity"
Therefore, Last Adam = "Not Incarnate Divine Entity"

That reasoning doesn't follow, because if it did, the First Adam and the Last Adam would be identical. But they aren't; you don't think that Jesus and the First Adam are the same person, do you? If you don't think that the First Adam and the Last Adam are identical, then they must not share at least one property in common.

Cap - Admittedly, you have me lost. Why are you so desperate to deny that Jesus is a man - a real genuine man like you and I??

I think that Jesus is a man - a real genuine man like you and I. I also think that you and I aren't Jesus.

 

[Aner]

I think that Jesus is a man - a real genuine man like you and I. I also think that you and I aren't Jesus.

Cap

Can you say that with a straight face - an incarnated deity in human form is a "real genuine man"???????

Which leads me back to my question -
Why are you so desperate to deny that Jesus is a man - a real genuine man like you and I?? You go to such excruciating lengths instead of simply submitting yourself to the plain text.... Why?

 

[Aner]

Cap

I am realizing that I need to back out. You have chosen to play word games. When you repent and choose to allow words to retain their standard meanings - instead of creating whatever meaning you wish to fit a pre-determined theology - then I will be more than happy to resume dialogue. Since you have choosen that green means blue on Mondays after noon and black means tree on Fridays before noon - then there is no meaningful basis for dialogue. You have chosen to manipulate standard meanings. As noted, I am at loss as to why and will not judge you accordingly but at least I now know that going forward I need to make sure whomsoever I dialogue with will be honest with our basic linguistic conventions instead of playing games. Jesus did not call us to play games but integrity was His high call. I am sticking with Him.

Sincerely,
In the Lord Jesus Christ

Aner

 

[JustHisKid]

Christological Questions -

If the Logos/Second Person of the Trinity dis-incarnated from Jesus - would Jesus be able to independently function just like you and I?

Who (which person) "learned obedience" in Heb 5:8??

Who (which person) is the "My" in "Not My will be done but Thy will be done"?

It was not possible for Jesus to not be God because He is God and was God before He become flesh. God is one and He can't separate Himself from Himself.