The Lord's Day

[MoreCoffee]

Adventists have these topics well under control and streamlined by now.

Not much is left unturned. Old outdated arguments will continue to be regurgitated, and they will continue to have to be put to sleep. I guess that will happen until Jesus comes.

If you could refrain from the seventh day mania posts we'd all be much happier

 

[Lysimachus]

I've refrained for almost 2 years now. No complainin'

 

[squint]

If you could refrain from the seventh day mania posts we'd all be much happier

There seems to be some common delusion that sinners who gather on Saturday or Sunday are better on either given day.

 

[Lysimachus]

There seems to be some common delusion that sinners who gather on Saturday or Sunday are better on either given day.

I would argue that this is a twisted understanding of how we perceive the situation.

People who keep the Seventh-day Sabbath holy can be just as lost as any Christian. In fact, a Sunday keeper, or one who keeps no day, can be be saved and live according to what he knows best far more than one who keeps the Sabbath.

The issue has to do with "knowledge" and whether we are "walking in the light according to what we know".

Hebrews 10:26,27 makes it very clear that once we receive the knowledge of the truth, and then sin afterwards, there is no more sacrifice left for sins.

And James 4:17 demonstrates that if we know to do good, and do it not, it becomes sin to us.

All will be judged according to the light they have.

So the question is not whether those who keep the Sabbath or Sunday or not will be saved.

The question is, IF we are saved, will we live according to what we know?

And the answer is yes.

And the evidence is in favor of the Sabbath if we go by scripture alone.

If we love God, and are saved, we WILL honor our parents. Not to be saved, but because we are saved.

Likewise, there is no difference with the 4th commandment. The 4th commandment is binding forever upon mankind, eternally. It transcends the Old Covenant, and is intimately and intrinsically tied to the Everlasting Covenant, which encompasses ALL the covenants.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would argue that this is a twisted understanding of how we perceive the situation.

People who keep the Seventh-day Sabbath holy can be just as lost as any Christian. In fact, a Sunday keeper, or one who keeps no day, can be be saved and live according to what he knows best far more than one who keeps the Sabbath....................

Likewise, there is no difference with the 4th commandment.
The 4th commandment is binding forever upon mankind, eternally.
It transcends the Old Covenant, and is intimately and intrinsically tied to the Everlasting Covenant, which encompasses ALL the covenants.

That is what the apostate non-Christian Jews of today believe also.

Anyway, once again I have to bring up how this topic has been discussed ad-nauseum on CF by the sabbatarian SDAs and MJs.........

http://www.christianforums.com/t6748067-65/
Is the fourth commandment done away with?

Should Christians keep the seventh day Sabbath holy?

Are we being deceived by not remembering the Sabbath?

The Bible says that the New Covenant will have two aspects. One, God forgives us of our sins, which are the violations of the law, which include the forth commandment.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Two, God will write His law on our hearts.

We know from Scripture that keeping of the Ten Commandments saves no one, but rather, they point out our need for a Savior. It's God's grace that saves us.

This tells me that we don't keep the commandmends to get saved, but rather, once we are saved we will keep them because we love God and neighbor.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Shall we break the law of God because we are now saved?

God tells us that the keeping of the law is motivated by love for God and love for neighbor.

How we love God and neighbor is defined in the Ten Commandments.

The first four teach us what pleases God and the last six teaches us what will please others.

How does God write these two aspects of the law on our hearts.

Under the Old Covenant they were commanded to keep the commandments or die.

Under the New Covenant we are free from that fearful aspect of death for not keeping the law and are now under grace, in other words, God frees us from the law and its penalty so that we now are free to obey or not obey without fear. This will open us up to obey God from the heart.

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart,

Look at it this way. Lets say a guy hires a maid, she comes to his house twice a week. The guy puts up a list of chores for her to do, which entail, laundry, dishes, cooking and cleaning. If she does not do these things she will risk the chance of being fired. As she begins to work for him, several months go by when they begin to fall in love and get married. The first thing she does when she comes home from her wedding is she removes the list of chores. Does this mean she will no longer do these things? No, it means she does not need the list to tell her what to do because she loves her husband.

God takes away the law so that we can keep the law because we love Him. If I saw that maid doing all the house work for free I would have to ask why she was doing it. Her response would be, because she Ioves him.

If someone asked me why I was keeping the Sabbath, since we are no longer under the law but under grace, I wound have to say, because I love Him.

The Ten Commandments have not been done away with, we just have a different relationship to them now. They go from being written on stone to being written on our heart through freedom and love.

Listen to how the Ten Commandments are referred to by Paul.

Ephesians 6:2 "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise:
Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Listen to how Jesus refers back to them.

Luke 18:
18-21 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?''
So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. "You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery,' `Do not murder,' `Do not steal,' `Do not bear false witness,' `Honor your father and your mother.' ''
And he said, "All these I have kept from my youth.''

Jesus was even concerned about the Sabbath forty years after His resurrection.

Matthew 24:16-20
"then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "Let him who is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house. "And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those with nursing babies in those days!
"And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

Jesus even said He was Lord of the Sabbath and how the Sabbath was made for man.

These are not words that do away with the law or the Sabbath, but rather, confirm the Sabbath and the law.

What are your thoughts?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've refrained for almost 2 years now. No complainin'

It seems like only yesterday you were writing multicoloured posts with heaps of bold and underlined text ... my how time flies

 

[BobRyan]

The 7-day weekly cycle has nothing to do with the Gregorian Calendar, the Julian Calendar, or the Jewish Calendar.

The 7th day Sabbath is independent of all those calendars. .

That is true - and that is why Jews today are not at all confused as to which day is the 7th day of the week -- and it is also why Christians who attend worship service on week-day-1 because Christ was raised on week-day-1 are not at all confused as to which day of the week that is.

Pretty basic stuff - but you can bet someone will raise a voice of complaint - nonetheless.

After all this is a thread about the "Lord's day" being Saturday vs Sunday according to the actual OP.

Oh dear, yet another thread turned seventh day sabbath by SDAs!

.

my .. we didn't have to wait long did we??

And yet the OP stated in Feb of 2011

According to the Faith that you have been taught...

EDIT TO ADD:

EDIT END:

The Lord's Day is Saturday.

or

The Lord's Day is Sunday.

Forgive me...

How sad that this late in the thread - someone decides to blame all of this on Adventists ...



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, but that's not going to be part of the answer set.

I want to know what day the Apostles meant when they said "The Lord's Day".
..

Good question - but we will have someone complaining about it -- sooner or later.

Here is an answer someone posted using a fictitious source -- July 2014 -- just prior to the complaints posted.

EllenWhite 827:431 OEWET Behold, I say unto you that Saturday is the seventh day, Saturday is the Sabbath, Saturday is the Lord's day so be ye not afraid of them that gainsay this word for this is the sure word of prophecy.

only to have a serious question/challenge also posted - that is inline with the OP. (you can bet the complaining had not yet started).

Is there a direct reference I missed stating that Saturday is the Lord's day? I'm really interested in such a verse.

answered here.

For those who believe that sunday is the first - day of the week and the day that Christ raised from the dead?? you bet!

"The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28.

"The Sabbath of the LORD thy God" Ex 20:8-11

"The Sabbath... the Holy day of the LORD" Isaiah 58:14

This is the only sola-scriptura choice for "The Lord's Day". No "week-day8-1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

So while that last post sums up the topic well - I still think this post - in response to the fictitious quote is "instructive".

=============================

EllenWhite 827:431 OEWET Behold, I say unto you that Saturday is the seventh day, Saturday is the Sabbath, Saturday is the Lord's day so be ye not afraid of them that gainsay this word for this is the sure word of prophecy.

Why not add something we can find in actual print compared to your fake quote?

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that

changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the o.t it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

 

[BobRyan]

I think the complaints follow that informative exchange.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That is true - and that is why Jews today are not at all confused as to which day is the 7th day of the week -- and it is also why Christians who attend worship service on week-day-1 because Christ was raised on week-day-1 are not at all confused as to which day of the week that is.

Pretty basic stuff - but you can bet someone will raise a voice of complaint - nonetheless.

After all this is a thread about the "Lord's day" being Saturday vs Sunday according to the actual OP.

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

Oh dear, yet another thread turned seventh day sabbath by SDAs!

​

​

my .. we didn't have to wait long did we??

And yet the OP stated in Feb of 2011

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA

According to the Faith that you have been taught...

EDIT TO ADD:

EDIT END:

The Lord's Day is Saturday.

or

The Lord's Day is Sunday.

Forgive me...
​

How sad that this late in the thread - someone decides to blame all of this on Adventists ...

in Christ,

Bob

Well, one has to admit, the SDAs are a rather unique sect within Christianity. And if I am not mistaken, it is also a rather recent one.

Seventh-day Adventist Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Seventh-day Adventist Church[3][4] is a Protestant Christian[5] denomination distinguished by its observance of Saturday,[6] the original seventh day of the Judeo-Christian week, as the Sabbath, and by its emphasis on the imminent second coming (advent) of Jesus Christ.
The denomination grew out of the Millerite movement in the United States during the middle part of the 19th century and was formally established in 1863.[7]
Among its founders was Ellen G. White, whose extensive writings are still held in high regard by the church today.[8]
Much of the theology of the Seventh-day Adventist Church corresponds to Protestant Christian teachings such as the Trinity and the infallibility of Scripture. Distinctive teachings include the unconscious state of the dead and the doctrine of an investigative judgment. The church is also known for its emphasis on diet and health, its "holistic" understanding of the person,[9] its promotion of religious liberty, and its conservative principles and lifestyle.[10]

The world church is governed by a General Conference, with smaller regions administered by divisions, union conferences and local conferences. It currently has a worldwide baptized membership of about 18.02 million people.[11] As of May 2007, it was the twelfth-largest religious body in the world,[12] and the sixth-largest highly international religious body.[13] It has a missionary presence in over 200 countries and territories and is ethnically and culturally diverse.[2][14]

 

[squint]

I would argue that this is a twisted understanding of how we perceive the situation.

People who keep the Seventh-day Sabbath holy can be just as lost as any Christian.

Pretty sure that zero of either side of this debate is any less the sinner for the respective day, notwithstanding their 'status' of belief.

In fact, a Sunday keeper, or one who keeps no day, can be be saved and live according to what he knows best far more than one who keeps the Sabbath.

Nice try on defraying it from sinners to 'saved' or not, which was not put into question.

The issue has to do with "knowledge" and whether we are "walking in the light according to what we know".

Pretty sure that every schmart fellow is equally the sinner as well.

Hebrews 10:26,27 makes it very clear that once we receive the knowledge of the truth, and then sin afterwards, there is no more sacrifice left for sins.

Not one Saturday Sabbath keeper is any less the sinner than any given Sunday worship adherent. In fact I would consider it ignorant to think there was a difference.

And James 4:17 demonstrates that if we know to do good, and do it not, it becomes sin to us.

When people erect sin barriers and then threaten peoples eternal destiny if they don't jump them seems to be the only way they are likewise falsely led to protect themselves.

All will be judged according to the light they have.

So the question is not whether those who keep the Sabbath or Sunday or not will be saved.

Unlikely to be the measure.

The question is, IF we are saved, will we live according to what we know?

And the answer is yes.

And the evidence is in favor of the Sabbath if we go by scripture alone.

Pick any given compilation of laws. Following all or none does not evade the conclusion that all of us sin and none of us sinless for performances. I only think it odd that people think they are 'less' the sinners for their 'legal sinner' status.

If we love God, and are saved, we WILL honor our parents. Not to be saved, but because we are saved.

And will do so as sinners.

Likewise, there is no difference with the 4th commandment. The 4th commandment is binding forever upon mankind, eternally. It transcends the Old Covenant, and is intimately and intrinsically tied to the Everlasting Covenant, which encompasses ALL the covenants.

And will do so as sinners. There seem to be some fallacy that the fact of being a sinner is mitigated by performances of various sorts.

It doesn't change a thing with regards to being sinners.

Kinda takes the fun out of obedience doncha think? Oh, maybe it's then replaced with honesty and no hypocrisy?

Sinners who sin bomb others with the law are not my favorite people, if you can tell. Specially when they claim they are 'legal sinners' which is an insult to any faithful intelligence.

s

 

[from scratch]

I would argue that this is a twisted understanding of how we perceive the situation.

People who keep the Seventh-day Sabbath holy can be just as lost as any Christian. In fact, a Sunday keeper, or one who keeps no day, can be be saved and live according to what he knows best far more than one who keeps the Sabbath.

The issue has to do with "knowledge" and whether we are "walking in the light according to what we know".

Hebrews 10:26,27 makes it very clear that once we receive the knowledge of the truth, and then sin afterwards, there is no more sacrifice left for sins.

And James 4:17 demonstrates that if we know to do good, and do it not, it becomes sin to us.

All will be judged according to the light they have.

So the question is not whether those who keep the Sabbath or Sunday or not will be saved.

The question is, IF we are saved, will we live according to what we know?

And the answer is yes.

And the evidence is in favor of the Sabbath if we go by scripture alone.

If we love God, and are saved, we WILL honor our parents. Not to be saved, but because we are saved.

Likewise, there is no difference with the 4th commandment. The 4th commandment is binding forever upon mankind, eternally. It transcends the Old Covenant, and is intimately and intrinsically tied to the Everlasting Covenant, which encompasses ALL the covenants.

Well I guess its your mission to send all professing Christians who don't accept the SDA truth about the Sabbath to a warm destiny. you must be proud of your self. Do we get to start this argument all over from scratch again? The Bible isn't in your favor about the requirement of the Christian to follow the law. Your real issue is about keeping the Sabbath in order to acquire and maintain salvation Such a position isn't supportable by the law, the prophets nor the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament. The Sabbath has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[from scratch]

You read Romans 6?


[FONT=&quot]Romans 6:12[/FONT]
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you belong to a church that promotes the idea of always having to sin - ask youself when the last time was that you heard a sermon covering this part of Romans 6 is detail?

never?

in Christ,

Bob

What dose the whole passage deal with? I think its sin. If we're dead to sin how can the law have any power? The previous chapter v 13 states sin was before the law. IOW the law doesn't invent sin. Paul's argument is that sin wasn't right to begin with and the law makes no difference. Your argument is if we don't park our carcass in a pew on Saturday we sin. Also according to your view point we also now know that because you told us and if we don't comply with your POV we can't enter heaven (possess salvation/ eternal life) thus not Christian. There's no Biblical support for any such thing. You regard all non sabbatarians as pagan ungodly heathens.

 

[BobRyan]

The 7-day weekly cycle has nothing to do with the Gregorian Calendar, the Julian Calendar, or the Jewish Calendar.

The 7th day Sabbath is independent of all those calendars. .

That is true - and that is why Jews today are not at all confused as to which day is the 7th day of the week -- and it is also why Christians who attend worship service on week-day-1 because Christ was raised on week-day-1 are not at all confused as to which day of the week that is.

Pretty basic stuff - but you can bet someone will raise a voice of complaint - nonetheless.

After all this is a thread about the "Lord's day" being Saturday vs Sunday according to the actual OP.

Oh dear, yet another thread turned seventh day sabbath by SDAs!

.

my .. we didn't have to wait long did we??

And yet the OP stated in Feb of 2011

According to the Faith that you have been taught...

EDIT TO ADD:

EDIT END:

The Lord's Day is Saturday.

or

The Lord's Day is Sunday.

Forgive me...

How sad that this late in the thread - someone decides to blame all of this on Adventists ...

Well, one has to admit, the SDAs are a rather unique sect within Christianity. And if I am not mistaken, it is also a rather recent one.

Seventh-day Adventist Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Seventh-day Adventist Church[3][4] is a Protestant Christian[5] denomination distinguished by its observance of Saturday,[6] the original seventh day of the Judeo-Christian week, as the Sabbath, and by its emphasis on the imminent second coming (advent) of Jesus Christ.
The denomination grew out of the Millerite movement in the United States during the middle part of the 19th century and was formally established in 1863.[7] ...]

1. That does not address that point in the post you are responding to - which is the point that this "Lord's Day -- is it Saturday or Sunday" theme is that of the OP poster - who claims to be Eastern Orthodox.

Blaming this subject and content regarding Saturday vs Sunday on Seventh-day Adventists seems almost superstitious given the facts to the contrary.

2. Far beit from me to assume that all 15 of the votes in favor of the 7th day - Saturday as the answer to the OP Question. But since you bring up the denomination in general (as have others before you in this thread) - you might want to include this...

from: Adventists' back-to-basics faith is fastest growing U.S. church - USATODAY.com


By Josh Anderson, AP

Rest on the Sabbath. Heed Old Testament dietary codes. And be ready for Jesus to return at any moment.y Josh Anderson, AP

If these practices sound quaint or antiquated, think again. They're hallmarks of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the fastest-growing Christian denomination in North America.

Newly released data show Seventh-day Adventism growing by 2.5% in North America, a rapid clip for this part of the world, where Southern Baptists and mainline denominations, as well as other church groups are declining. Adventists are even growing 75% faster than Mormons (1.4 percent), who prioritize numeric growth.

For observers outside the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the growth rate in North America is perplexing.

"You've got a denomination that is basically going back to basics ... saying, 'What did God mean by all these rules and regulations and how can we fit in to be what God wants us to be?'," said Daniel Shaw, an expert on Christian missionary outreach at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif. "That's just totally contrary to anything that's happening in American culture. So I'm saying, 'Whoa! That's very interesting.' And I can't answer it."

Seventh-day Adventists are asking a different question: "Why isn't the church growing much faster on these shores",...

in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

The 7-day weekly cycle has nothing to do with the Gregorian Calendar, the Julian Calendar, or the Jewish Calendar.

The 7th day Sabbath is independent of all those calendars. The Gregorian and Julian Calendars happen to "COINCIDE" with calling the Sabbath "Saturday", but they name all the other days a pagan name as well.

Interestingly, the Sabbath was the Sabbath long before the pagans attached "Saturday" to it.

Sunday keeping came as a result AFTER Sunday was dedicated to the sun god.

The 7-day cycle is not tied to any calendar whatsoever. The most scholarly advanced sources prove Saturday to be the true day the Sabbath has always been.

The Lunar Sabbath is no more a fairy tale than the Loony Tunes.

Unfortunately the Biblical Sabbath is affected by the new moon where the lunar calendar draws its name New Moon calendar. The Biblical Sabbath is always the 7th day after the new moon and every consecutive 7th day till the next new moon. If you notice on calendars that have the moon phases this would rarely allows the Biblical Sabbath to be the Gregorian Saturday. Using such is a matter of personal convenience and isn't in accord with the law regarding the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the OP from our Eastern Orthodox poster -

According to the Faith that you have been taught...

EDIT TO ADD:

EDIT END:

The Lord's Day is Saturday.

or

The Lord's Day is Sunday.

Forgive me...

Oh dear, yet another thread turned seventh day sabbath by SDAs!

Let's move it to that Sabbath subforum. Or stop trying to turn this into a Seventh Day thing.

what is up with that??

Another post from the OP author

Sorry, but that's not going to be part of the answer set.

I want to know what day the Apostles meant when they said "The Lord's Day".

Forgive me...

The question of whether it is Saturday or Sunday is very much the question of the OP.

One of the respondents answered ---

Shouldn't the question be "According to the Bible, what day is the Lord's day?"?

I would say Saturday and I'm not a SDA.

 

[BobRyan]

Unfortunately the Biblical Sabbath is affected by the new moon .

True for ceremonial Sabbaths - not true for the weekly Sabbath the 4th commandment Sabbath.

And that is why Jews are so certain that the weekly 7th day is Saturday.

And that is why most Christians (including Seventh-day Adventists) are so certain that Sunday is week-day-1 in the Bible and is the day Christ was raised from the dead.

And that is why even these pro-Sunday sources listed in the signature line below are so certain of that same fact.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

True for ceremonial Sabbaths - not true for the weekly Sabbath the 4th commandment Sabbath.

And that is why Jews are so certain that the weekly 7th day is Saturday.

And that is why most Christians (including Seventh-day Adventists) are so certain that Sunday is week-day-1 in the Bible and is the day Christ was raised from the dead.

And that is why even these pro-Sunday sources listed in the signature line below are so certain of that same fact.

in Christ,

Bob

Strange how in reading Genesis 1-2; Exodus 20:8-11, etc, those which refuse God's Moral Law, the Ten Commandments, purposefully [willingly] refuse to understand that the 7th Day the Sabbath of the Lord [our] God, was not based upon the Moon [created 4th Day], but upon God Himself in what He did... for God created in the 6 days and rested the [definite article] 7th...

 

[from scratch]

Adventists have these topics well under control and streamlined by now.

Not much is left unturned. Old outdated arguments will continue to be regurgitated, and they will continue to have to be put to sleep. I guess that will happen until Jesus comes.

They have them well under control only for those who refuse to read and believe the Bible. The SDA argument is so full of holes with denial of Scripture its passed laughable in being absurd.