The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[ToBeLoved]

Why did you not quote Jesus exactly and provide a verse number reference instead of using your own words or spin on what he said?


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Because I did not spin what Jesus said.

You do not understand the depth of the statement. That is not my fault. This is a good study area for you to learn then.

It is your opportunity to seek and find. Mini Bible studies are great.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Saying popular Christianity is a cop-out. We all are from different denominations here, yet almost everyone is telling you that you are in error.

Narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. So it will not be a lot of people correcting me, if I was being corrected.

Telling yourself that the road is narrow is a cop-out too, because we are all taking the narrow road.

No, the Eternal Security Proponent is not taking the Narrow way. Why? Well, because they believe they can sin and still be saved (i.e. Which is a denial of Jesus's words. cf. Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:35-37, etc.). For in Matthew 7, when Jesus mentions the Narrow Way (Matthew 7:13-14), it is in context to doing what Jesus says (Matthew 7:24-25) versus not doing what Jesus says whereby such a person is compared to a fool who has built his house upon the sand (Whereby a storm had destroyed it greatly).

For Jesus says,

26 "And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).

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[Steeno7]

Narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. So it will not be a lot of people correcting if I was being corrected.

No, the Eternal Security Proponent is not taking the Narrow way. Why? Well, in Matthew 7, when Jesus mentions the Narrow Way (Matthew 7:13-14), it is in context to doing what Jesus says (Matthew 7:24-25) versus not doing what Jesus says whereby such a person is compared to a fool who has built his house upon the sand (Whereby a storm had destroyed it greatly).

Those who are under grace, know it, and understand it, are those who are eternally secure and are those who are on the Narrow Way. The road to destruction is the road you are on. It is the road of rejecting faith in Christ alone and substituting your own dead works for the finished work of Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because I did not spin what Jesus said.

You do not understand the depth of the statement. That is not my fault. This is a good study area for you to learn then.

It is your opportunity to seek and find. Mini Bible studies are great.

No. You did not quote Jesus exactly but you used your own words to what you think he said. There is a difference.
In other words, I would like for you to quote Jesus's words and then put your words next to them from your previous post and see how they line up. In other words, what you said was not the exact words of Jesus. You said something you thought Jesus said.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Those who are under grace, know it, and understand it, are those who are eternally secure and are those who are on the Narrow Way. The road to destruction is the road you are on. It is the road of rejecting faith in Christ alone and substituting your own dead works for the finished work of Christ.

Chapter and verse please.


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[Steeno7]

Chapter and verse please.

LOL

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The verse you quoted was taken out of context. And that you who preach nothing but law would try to now appeal to Grace reveals the very depth of your ignorance.

Please show me how I am quoting the above passage out of context.


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[Steeno7]

Please show me how I am quoting the above passage out of context.


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LOL

 

[Bible Highlighter]

LOL

So you don't believe in using the Bible so as to have a Bible discussion?
Did not Jesus quote Scripture?
Does not Jesus desire us to speak His Word?


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[Steeno7]

So you don't believe in using the Bible so as to have a Bible discussion?
Did not Jesus quote Scripture?
Does not Jesus desire us to speak His Word?

LOL

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, please show me how Jesus's words in Matthew 7:26-27 does not apply to you, as well.


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[FreeGrace2]

So this is how far your demonic doctrine goes? You are even saying that if one stops believing and even because a pagan and atheist after that they will be saved if they have believed before and been saved? That is totally evil.

Quite wrong. That is totally GRACE, something that the conditional security ilk do not understand one bit.

In fact, Jesus noted that there are some who "believe for a while" and then fall away. Did He say ANYTHING about loss of salvation in Luke 8? No, He didn't. And no where else in Scripture is the teaching that loss of faith results in loss of salvation.

The reason is clear: Jesus Himself taught that those who have believed are held in God's hand. Jn 10:28,29

Further, Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23. He next use of the word 'gift' is found in Rom 11:29, where he wrote that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. But one is free to reject these truths.

The Greek describes saving faith as a present active continuous action, not a one time thing:

Quite wrong, again. Paul used the AORIST tense in his answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved.

And Paul used the aorist tense in Rom 10:10.

And in Luke 8:13, Jesus used the present tense for "believe" but added 'for a while'. So don't lecture me on what the Greek says.

From a literal translation of the Bible:

Uh, which literal translation would that be?

Mat_18:6 But whoever causes one of these little ones believing in Me to offend, it is better for him that a millstone turned by an ass be hung on his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Mar_16:16 The one believing and being baptized will be saved. And the one not believing will be condemned.

Joh_3:18 The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh_3:36 The one believing into the Son has everlasting life; but the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Joh_6:35 Jesus said to them, I am the Bread of life; the one coming to Me will not at all hunger, and the one believing into Me will not thirst, never!

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of the One sending Me, that everyone seeing the Son and believing into Him should have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, The one believing into Me has everlasting life.

Joh_6:64 But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were, the ones not believing, and who was the one betraying Him.

Joh_7:38 The one believing into Me, as the Scripture said, Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.

Joh_11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life. The one believing into Me, though he die, he shall live.

Joh_12:44 But Jesus cried out and said, The one believing into Me does not believe into Me, but into the One sending Me.

Joh_14:12 Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
Act_10:43 To this One all the Prophets witness, so that through His name everyone believing into Him will receive remission of sins.

Act_13:39 And everyone believing in this One is justified from all things which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses.

Rom_4:5 But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

1Pe_2:6 Because of this, it is also contained in the Scripture: "Behold," I lay in Zion" an elect, "precious Stone," "a Corner-foundation;" "and the one believing in Him shall not be ashamed, never!" Isa. 28:16

1Jn_5:1 Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been generated from God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the one who has been born of Him.

1Jn_5:10 The one believing in the Son of God has the witness in himself. The one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning His Son.

None of these verses say that salvation can be lost. But I understand that some assume that they mean that.

No apologies, the RC is correct.

By RC, do you mean the Catholics?

If you shipwreck your faith then you no longer have salvation. Salvation is only for the believing ones.

Salvation is an irrevocable gift. Your view is contrary to Scripture.

"To remain in Christ's love, and to abide in Him is about fellowship, not relationship."

>>> Wow! O and I'm sure that is what the part about withering and dying and being thrown in the fire is about, right? What a cop-out!

OK, so you are quite unfamiliar with the difference between relationship and fellowship. How sad. That's why there i so much confusion about Scripture among the conditional security ilk.

The parable of the prodigal is a very clear example of fellowship and relationship. Throughout the parable, the son continued to be the son, and the father continued to be the father. What was broken, lost, or died, was fellowship, not relationship.

When people confuse these 2 words, they get into all kinds of false doctrines.

Can you severe the physical RELATIONSHIP between yourself and either of your parents? of course NOT. But, can you kill fellowship with either of them. Absolutely.

"The metaphor is an agricultural one. And the point of ch 11 is Israel, the chosen of God. They were chosen for service. But those who don't believe can't be of service to God. That's the point."

>>> Wow! This is just so wrong of you.

I'm truly sorry that you are just as unfamiliar with agricultural metaphors. I guess I can't help further.

Romans 11 using the same language as Jeremiah 11:

Jer 11:16 “יהוה has named you, ‘Green Olive Tree, Fair, of Goodly Fruit.’ With the noise of a great sound He has set it on fire, and its branches shall be broken.
Jer 11:17 “And יהוה of hosts, who planted you, has spoken evil against you for the evil of the house of Yisra’ĕl and of the house of Yehuḏah, which they have done against themselves to provoke Me, by burning incense to Baʽal.”

So what? Words are used through out the Bible. But it's the immediate context that one must pay attention to. There is no contextual connection between Rom 11 and Jer 11.

Clearly this does not just mean not being allowed to do God's service.

Sure does. In fact, it CANNOT MEAN loss of salvation, because Paul goes on to EMPHASIZE that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. Just to make sure no one gets the WRONG IDEA about his agricultural metaphor. Sadly, many still fail to understand or believe him, and get the WRONG IDEA.

And "cut off" used int his way in Scripture always means to be put to death and capital punishment.

Nope. It's also used to banish people from the land of Israel. Seems there's a lot of Scripture that you are rather unfamiliar with.

And it means the same thing when Paul says it as it does in Jeremiah 11.

Wrong again. Because Paul described what God's gifts are: both justification (Rom 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) BEFORE he wrote Rom 11:29 and wrote that God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE. There is no doubt he included that statement in ch 11 in order to HEAD OFF the false idea from his agricultural metaphor that one can lose their salvation.

I hope you guys, you and your Calvinist buddies, who you are not that much different from, know that what you are doing with the Scriptures here and with your doctrines, according to Scripture, is a sin unto the Second Death.

lol. And who made you judge, jury, and executioner?

There is no such thing as "sin unto the Second Death". You just made that one up. John wrote about the "sin unto death", without ANY reference to the lake of fire. He was referring to God's discipline that includes physical death, which is amply illustrated in Scripture.

I say that out of concern for you to warn you so that you may consider your ways.

Your views demonstrate an extreme lack of proper understanding of Scripture. Which has resulted in direct rejection of truth.

You have failed to heed 2 Tim 2:15 - Be diligent (by study) to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

You've not studied, have not accurately handled the word of truth, and are not an approved workman to God.

 

[Steeno7]

Also, please show me how Jesus's words in Matthew 7:26-27 does not apply to you, as well.

LOL. You show me how Titus 2:11-12 applies to you who preach nothing but law and the dead works of man.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

LOL. You show me how Titus 2:11-12 applies to you who preach nothing but law and the dead works of man.

The grace of God teaches us something. It teaches us to deny ungodliness. You are saying that you can be ungodly or sin and still be saved.
This runs contrary to this passage because it says we are supposed to live righteously in this present world. 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous.

Also, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).


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[ToBeLoved]

Narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. So it will not be a lot of people correcting me, if I was being corrected.



No, the Eternal Security Proponent is not taking the Narrow way. Why? Well, because they believe they can sin and still be saved (i.e. Which is a denial of Jesus's words. cf. Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, etc.). For in Matthew 7, when Jesus mentions the Narrow Way (Matthew 7:13-14), it is in context to doing what Jesus says (Matthew 7:24-25) versus not doing what Jesus says whereby such a person is compared to a fool who has built his house upon the sand (Whereby a storm had destroyed it greatly).

For Jesus says,

26 "And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).

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But what you are in effect saying is that those who are on this thread, who are Christians are not also on the narrow path.

The issue with thinking this is that these same people are saved, Holy Spirit filled Christians who love Christ and are only seeking to broaden their knowledge and walk with God.

To make it seem like these Christ filled believers are your enemy and trying to lead you astray is a very dangerous position because then you get this mental attitude that it is you against other Christians who know the Word of God as well or better than yourself.

You really need to see things the way they are. These are your brothers and sisters in Christ, talking to you who know the Bible as well as you do. Who are also being led by the Holy Spirit. Who are not your enemies, but followers of the same Christ that you are.

 

[Steeno7]

The grace of God teaches us something. It teaches us to deny ungodliness. You are saying that you can be ungodly or sin and still be saved.
This runs contrary to this passage because we are supposed to live righteously in this present world. 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous.

Also, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

You have only shown you have no idea what the passage is telling you. You focus on what supports your doctrine of works and in doing so miss the truth that could set you free. Here's a mirror for ya....Who is God resisting?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But what you are in effect saying is that those who are on this thread, who are Christians are not also on the narrow path.

The issue with thinking this is that these same people are saved, Holy Spirit filled Christians who love Christ and are only seeking to broaden their knowledge and walk with God.

To make it seem like these Christ filled believers are your enemy and trying to lead you astray is a very dangerous position because then you get this mental attitude that it is you against other Christians who know the Word of God as well or better than yourself.

You really need to see things the way they are. These are your brothers and sisters in Christ, talking to you who know the Bible as well as you do. Who are also being led by the Holy Spirit. Who are not your enemies, but followers of the same Christ that you are.

Your words are not God's Word. Please, less opinon, and more Scripture.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You have only shown you have no idea what the passage is telling you. You focus on what supports your doctrine of works and in doing so miss the truth that could set you free. Here's a mirror for ya....Who is God resisting?

Why are you not explaining the passage to me and telling me what the context says?
Are you capable of doing that?


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[Steeno7]

Why don't you explain the passage to me and tell me what the context says?

Because as Ravi says, to give truth to one who does not love the truth is to only give them more ammunition for misunderstanding.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have only shown you have no idea what the passage is telling you. You focus on what supports your doctrine of works and in doing so miss the truth that could set you free.

I don't think he wants to be free. I think he revels in thinking he can work his way into heaven.

Here are some verses that he will ignore:

Gal 2:15 - nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Then Paul wrote this:
Gal 3:10-13 -
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

Seems that Jason is still hanging on a tree.