The last gasp of Imperialism in Europe?

[WilliamLhk]

Yes, sorry I've been out for 2 weeks. I am Postribulational in my eschatology, and believe the Church will experience the *time* of God's Wrath against the Beast, but not the "Wrath" itself.

What that means to me is that Christians will suffer the effects of God's judgment upon the Beast, but that makes us "collateral damage," ...

The elect of the Church, "the ones having come out of the great tribulation," Rev. 7:14, are caught up "before the throne of God" in heaven after the opening of the sixth seal but before the seventh. Whereas the Beast that "ascends out of the Abyss" (11:7; 17:8) does not come into the world until the Abyss is opened at the fifth trumpet. So these elect will not experience what you say.

However, there will be believers on earth during the time of the Beast, being those who only come to the faith after they see Christ in His Parousia, "look(ing) on Him whom they pierced." These include the 144,000, but doubtless both other Jews and also Gentiles besides.

 

[RandyPNW]

The elect of the Church, "the ones having come out of the great tribulation," Rev. 7:14, are caught up "before the throne of God" in heaven after the opening of the sixth seal but before the seventh. Whereas the Beast that "ascends out of the Abyss" (11:7; 17:8) does not come into the world until the Abyss is opened at the fifth trumpet. So these elect will not experience what you say.

However, there will be believers on earth during the time of the Beast, being those who only come to the faith after they see Christ in His Parousia, "look(ing) on Him whom they pierced." These include the 144,000, but doubtless both other Jews and also Gentiles besides.

Yes, a good number of Christians hold to this kind of eschatology. I, however, do not. That kind of account can be "fit in," but is not specifically stated. It can be assumed, but it is not a matter of theological description.

The problem with apocalyptic language is that it is not very specific in its itinerary and organization. It is a snapshot, or a picture of sorts. We are warned to be careful not to add things into it to make it more than it is. I prefer to take things as literally as I can.

Escape from Wrath cannot be read into the Revelation as a doctrine indicating the Church must escape, in all ways, the effects of God's final judgments. I've shown you how Jeremiah experienced the effects of the Babylonian Judgment against Israel without being the object of God's wrath. So we must not begin to interpret the Revelation with the assumption the Church cannot be on earth when God pours out His wrath on Antichrist.

 

[WilliamLhk]

I've shown you how Jeremiah experienced the effects of the Babylonian Judgment against Israel without being the object of God's wrath. So we must not begin to interpret the Revelation with the assumption the Church cannot be on earth when God pours out His wrath on Antichrist.

To compare the time of Jeremiah to the end of the age is a big stretch.

The real assumption, as I see it, is to say that the Revelation 7:14 saints will go through both the Wrath and the kingdom of the Beast. What scriptural evidence can you provide to support this view?

 

[RandyPNW]

To compare the time of Jeremiah to the end of the age is a big stretch.

The real assumption, as I see it, is to say that the Revelation 7:14 saints will go through both the Wrath and the kingdom of the Beast. What scriptural evidence can you provide to support this view?

I don't see the experience of Jeremiah in the time of the Babylonian Invasion to be a "stretch" with respect to comparing it to our day. The entire Bible is given for the Church in all times and in all places. It's just a matter of lining up our own historical context with his.

In my view Jeremiah was experiencing the decline of Israel and the apparent failure of her spiritual calling. This does compare to our own time when historic European Christianity is falling flat on its face--something that has been happening at least as far back as the Enlightenment Era.

Divine judgments do not just fall at the end of the age. They've been falling all through history, though in measured ways. God is patient before He unleashes complete destruction. When things are most bleak, devastating judgments will come. And never have God's faithful saints been immune from the fall out.

This is *not* experiencing God's Wrath. It is experiencing the *time* of His wrath, and we are purely collateral damage, victims of "friendly fire." Certainly that is not the best way to frame it, but you get the point?

The saints of Rev 7.14, who emerge from the Tribulations of the present age are, in context, appearing with Christ at his Coming. To "come out of the Tribulation" is to arrive at its end point--not escape in the middle of it.

Rev 7.9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands....
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple.

It was thought that this presented a picture similar to the Feast of Tabernacles, celebrating the end of the Wilderness Journey as a remembrance of God's provision during that time. As such, coming out of the Tribulation meant a final deliverance from it--not escape in the middle of it.

 

[WilliamLhk]

The saints of Rev 7.14, who emerge from the Tribulations of the present age are, in context, appearing with Christ at his Coming. To "come out of the Tribulation" is to arrive at its end point--not escape in the middle of it.

I agree entirely. But I suspect that you, like so many, are equating the Trib with the Wrath, whereas they are entirely two different things. The Trib takes place during the first five seals = Matt. 24:5-26, whereas the Wrath immediately follows the cataclysms of the sixth seal = Matt. 24:29-30. Those cataclysms just preceding Christ's Parousia: Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 6:16-17.

Which is why the Parousia is post-Trib but pre-Wrath, which Wrath Rev. 6:17 says begins at that time. Which is why the elect are in heaven before the Beast and his kingdom ever show up.

 

[RandyPNW]

I agree entirely. But I suspect that you, like so many, are equating the Trib with the Wrath, whereas they are entirely two different things. The Trib takes place during the first five seals = Matt. 24:5-26, whereas the Wrath immediately follows the cataclysms of the sixth seal = Matt. 24:29-30. Those cataclysms just preceding Christ's Parousia: Matt. 24:30-31 = Rev. 6:16-17.

Which is why the Parousia is post-Trib but pre-Wrath, which Wrath Rev. 6:17 says begins at that time. Which is why the elect are in heaven before the Beast and his kingdom ever show up.

I'm glad we agree on the most important parts of this. But I have to say, I don't agree with this particular point.

First, I do not agree with the association of God's Wrath with either a 3.5 or a 7 years period of Tribulation. Any time antichrists reign in the world there will be associated with it indications of divine displeasure, and incidences of God's wrath.

Neither do the words "God's Wrath" indicate "final Wrath." As I said, the word conveys the image of divine punishments which occur throughout history, whenever there is an antichrist at work. God does not bless the wicked, nor the state that embraces such wickedness. When Antichrist reigns, at the pleasure of his subjects, those states will be cursed, and punishments will be inflicted upon them to warn them of final judgment.

The final judgment, or "final Wrath of God," I do agree the Church will be immune to. But I define that Wrath as eternal sentencing, whether to paradise with God or to outer darkness with the Devil. That is the judgment--not the many deaths that take place in the last world war on earth.

Some will die only to rise again justified and saved eternally. Others will in their deaths enter into eternal punishment. Again, "Wrath" here conveys the idea of eternal sentencing, rather than the experience of the final war itself.

You seem to suggest that wrath does not take place during the reign of Antichrist, and that only the last outpouring of judgment on earth represents "God's Wrath." But I don't believe that to be true.

In reality, God's final outpouring, at the battle of Armageddon, will cause many to die, some to rise to eternal life, and others to rise to eternal condemnation and separation from God's paradise. It is the sentencing that is the final wrath of God, in my opinion.

Nobody will rise up from the earth to escape the entirety of this final war. They will either die and rise at the 2nd Coming, or they will ascend in the "Rapture" when Christ comes to actually destroy the Antichrist.

When Christ comes to destroy the Antichrist the salvation of the Church and the outpouring of judgment against Antichrist take place simultaneously. There will be no escape apart from either dying or rising up *at* the moment of Christ's Coming.

To be honest, I can't give an exact itinerary, because we are told his Coming will be quick, the Church's exit will be instant, and that it will all be over on earth in an hour. I suggest that Christ comes at the end of that hour, which means that the Church endures the entire battle, for better or for worse.

Just my opinion, brother. This is not to excessively argue over a very short period of time. One way or another, we believe the Church will be here to testify to the truth even as the world rejects it for the Antichrist. This testimony God sees as *needed!* So we apparently agree on that?

 

[WilliamLhk]

First, I do not agree with the association of God's Wrath with either a 3.5 or a 7 years period of Tribulation.

Neither do I.

Neither do the words "God's Wrath" indicate "final Wrath." As I said, the word conveys the image of divine punishments which occur throughout history, ...

Rev. 15:1 says of the seven bowl judgements, being God's judgement on the nations, that "in them the wrath of God is completed."

You seem to suggest that wrath does not take place during the reign of Antichrist, and that only the last outpouring of judgment on earth represents "God's Wrath." But I don't believe that to be true.

There is no "the Antichrist" other than the spirit thereof, which John tells us inspires "many antichrists." A one-man "the Antichrist" is a doctrine of men.

Nobody will rise up from the earth to escape the entirety of this final war. They will either die and rise at the 2nd Coming, or they will ascend in the "Rapture" when Christ comes to actually destroy the Antichrist.

Way wrong here. They are shown to have already been ascended in Rev. 7:9-14, before the trumpets and bowls ever begin.

Just my opinion, brother. This is not to excessively argue over a very short period of time. One way or another, we believe the Church will be here to testify to the truth even as the world rejects it for the Antichrist. This testimony God sees as *needed!* So we apparently agree on that?

I agree that the Church will be here during the time of the Son of Perdition, which time is pre-trib. That man being an antichrist, but not the Beast nor any of the other post-trib antichrists.

 

[RandyPNW]

Neither do I.

Rev. 15:1 says of the seven bowl judgements, being God's judgement on the nations, that "in them the wrath of God is completed."

I think you're missing the point? The word "wrath" does not convey "final wrath" unless the context calls for that. In the case of Rev 15.1 a specific "final wrath" is being described.

So if the saints have gone through periods of wrath, which is not defined necessarily as "final wrath," then they can also go through a period of "final wrath."

In fact, the Bible has described ancient Israel as going through periods of God's Wrath, because the nation had fallen into apostasy and sin. However, the Prophet Jeremiah also went through this period of "Wrath," which clearly was not "final wrath." If so, then what prohibits the saints from going through the period of "final wrath" as well?

In other words, a general sense of "wrath" and "final wrath" are essentially referring to the same kind of "wrath." The Church, having experienced God's Wrath throughout history, whenever God has poured out judgment upon a nation, will also experience the time of final Wrath because we are called to testify to God's righteousness even in the time of our national sin accompanied by God's judgment.

There is no "the Antichrist" other than the spirit thereof, which John tells us inspires "many antichrists." A one-man "the Antichrist" is a doctrine of men.

That is your opinion, but not the opinion of many Christian scholars throughout history.

Way wrong here. They are shown to have already been ascended in Rev. 7:9-14, before the trumpets and bowls ever begin.

I agree that the Church will be here during the time of the Son of Perdition, which time is pre-trib. That man being an antichrist, but not the Beast nor any of the other post-trib antichrists.

These are minor differences among Christians. Thanks for stating your opinions and views. We may or may not be able to work out our differences?

 

[WilliamLhk]

So if the saints have gone through periods of wrath, which is not defined necessarily as "final wrath," then they can also go through a period of "final wrath."

Since we are now going around in circles on this, this is my final statement about it: all faithful believers will go through the Trib, but will be raptured before the era of God's wrath. Those who come to faith at or after the sixth seal rapture will go through at least some of the wrath.

In fact, the Bible has described ancient Israel as going through periods of God's Wrath, because the nation had fallen into apostasy and sin. However, the Prophet Jeremiah also went through this period of "Wrath," which clearly was not "final wrath." If so, then what prohibits the saints from going through the period of "final wrath" as well?

The NT prophetic word.

That is your opinion, but not the opinion of many Christian scholars throughout history.

I never concern myself about such opinions, only about what the Word actually says, without any added presumptions of men. Which are abundant.

These are minor differences among Christians. Thanks for stating your opinions and views. We may or may not be able to work out our differences?

In some things we agree, others not. Things will become clearer, to those who are well-grounded in the Word, over the coming years.

 

[RandyPNW]

Since we are now going around in circles on this, this is my final statement about it: all faithful believers will go through the Trib, but will be raptured before the era of God's wrath. Those who come to faith at or after the sixth seal rapture will go through at least some of the wrath.

The NT prophetic word.

I never concern myself about such opinions, only about what the Word actually says, without any added presumptions of men. Which are abundant.

I don't think that's particularly wise. God has gifted certain Christian individuals with scholarly abilities that can help us, even if they are not always entirely correct. They've done their homework, and I respect that. Should we think we are any less subject to imperfections?

I do think we need to read commentators with a certain degree of skepticism, but to treat scholarship with disrespect is another thing entirely. I think you would benefit from reading opinions even if you don't agree with them in all ways.

In some things we agree, others not. Things will become clearer, to those who are well-grounded in the Word, over the coming years.

Well yes--after Christ Comes we will know how much "tribulation" the Church will have had to endure. But of what use is that?

My point is that the saints, and Jesus, have had to go through every part of history, good and bad. To suffer the fall out from God's judgments upon this world is not a negative thing with respect to our own commitment to the Lord. Suffering in this world comes with the territory. Apparently we are both agreeing on most of this.

If the only thing we're disagreeing on is a final moment in history in which God unleashes His anger upon the world then I think we're not far apart at all. We both agree the Church will not suffer God's Wrath. We both agree the Church can suffer in this world even while the wicked are being punished. This is not a hill worth fighting over for either of us, in my view.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Thanks for your comments.

And thanks for yours. Just for the record, I do read and consider other people's commentaries, just don't give credence to any of the assumptions and presumptions that they add into the Word.