The King James Version

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I do not claim, nor i have i once claimed the KJV is entirely 100% flawless and without minor difficulties.

If this is your view then why ask Princetonguy for another problem with the KJV? He acknowledges issues, and you acknowledge issues. So what would presenting a couple prove?

Now for those who hold it is completely perfect, then there would be a point to it. We have been getting a number of folks here lately saying it is in fact not only a perfect translation, but perfect in every reading, and an exact perfect, God led reproduction of the original autographs into English. I support the majority text, and I actually like the KJV, but I certainly cannot defend that.
 
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joshuanazar

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The Greek word in question is Kloros and it is found 4 times in the New Testament. Three times it is translated as “green” and once as “pale”. There is good reason for this. The Greek word itself can mean BOTH green and pale, depending on the context. The three times the KJB translates it as “green” the context is clearly referring to green PLANTS.

Liddell and Scott’s massive Greek Lexicon tells us on page 1995 that the Greek word kloros means: 1. greenish yellow, pale green; and 2. Generally PALE, PALLID.


Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon likewise defines the word kloros as 1. green; and number 2. yellowish, PALE. (page 669, Thayer’s 19 printing, Zondervan, 1978).


Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich’s Greek-English Lexicon defines the word kloros as: 1. yellowish green, light green of plants; and 2. PALE as the color of a person in sickness as contrasted with his appearance in health. SO THE HORSE RIDDEN BY DEATH - the kloros of death- Revelation 6:8.” (page 891)

I mean no disrespect brother, but as i stated before it takes more that a precursory understanding of Koine Greek to dispute the accuracy of the KJV..the KJV translators translated each passage of their assigned lot (oxford groups had so many books to translate, Cambridge had so many assigned to them, Westminster had also so many) so, fourty seven of these fifty four men EACH translated each book assigned to them...and the result was approved by the other groups..( i wont go into full detail as its not exactly pertinent to answer your question entirely) suffice it to say, these men did not make elementary mistakes, nor did they allow doctrinal beliefs affect their translating abilities..the King James is absolutely a well rounded and sufficient translation that stands head and shoulders above the alphabet soup bibles (everything from 1881 until today especially)

if u have any other verses or any other concerns u can pm me, or u can post here and quote me so i get the alert..i really and truly do enjoy shedding light on the misconception that the KJV is somehow lacking. ( I do admit, it can be hard for someone not studied in Elizabethan english to follow it without a bit of study) but this is not the same as a deficiency in the text itself by any means
Are you telling me that green means green except when we want it to mean a different color. I don't see why not, after all it is us who gives words their meaning. I am now going to call spiders "dumb". Though I am sure I will be the only one calling them that and a lot of people will end up being confused. Much like the confusion that will come out if the majority of people find out that die hard King James enthusiasts change the meaning of the original Greek words to fit their doctrines. Do you see how dumb* that is? I am not saying that the KJV is a bad translation, it is still my favorite. I am just saying that it is not perfect. Only God is perfect, not 50 something scholars. But I am behind on this topic so I will only ask if you believe that it is the only true word of God?

*Don't forget dumb now means spiders.
 
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HonestFisherman88

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Are you telling me that green means green except when we want it to mean a different color. I don't see why not, after all it is us who gives words their meaning. I am now going to call spiders "dumb". Though I am sure I will be the only one calling them that and a lot of people will end up being confused. Much like the confusion that will come out if the majority of people find out that die hard King James enthusiasts change the meaning of the original Greek words to fit their doctrines. Do you see how dumb* that is? I am not saying that the KJV is a bad translation, it is still my favorite. I am just saying that it is not perfect. Only God is perfect, not 50 something scholars. But I am behind on this topic so I will only ask if you believe that it is the only true word of God?

*Don't forget dumb now means spiders.
No, I am telling you that Kloros means pale when in reference to complexion. Even princeton guy acknowledges this..I also would ask that u consult your beloved critical text Bibles and realize how many even of them favor the reading 'pale' without any color attached. This is a fact and one u can obviously verify if u take the time..Unless ud rather just knock a perfectly good translation in your ignorance?

If this is your view then why ask Princetonguy for another problem with the KJV? He acknowledges issues, and you acknowledge issues. So what would presenting a couple prove?

Now for those who hold it is completely perfect, then there would be a point to it. We have been getting a number of folks here lately saying it is in fact not only a perfect translation, but perfect in every reading, and an exact perfect, God led reproduction of the original autographs into English. I support the majority text, and I actually like the KJV, but I certainly cannot defend that.

My position is that the KJV is an accurate faithful translation, that it still today is the most accurate translation that can be had in English, both in the OT and the NT. I stated that I am willing to defend my position, and that's why I ask for another example..Difficulties exist (believe it or not) in the manuscript texts and these I will not accept as "translational issues". The KJV, I have found, through careful and thorough study, displays absolute fidelity to the text in either the text or the marginal notes on even the most difficult to translate passage. If someone can post an example where I am incorrect, I'll reverse myself, but I have been thru every " error" I can find mention of on any website, in any book, or pointed out by second rate "scholars" who seek to spread falsehoods based on misunderstanding. I really do mean no disrespect to anyone here, and I'm willing to do this privately so as to avoid the appearance of publicized contention, but I assure u I can defend the Translation against all accusation of inaccuracy.
 
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miamited

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Difficulties exist (believe it or not) in the manuscript texts and these I will not accept as "translational issues". The KJV, I have found, through careful and thorough study, displays absolute fidelity to the text in either the text or the marginal notes on even the most difficult to translate passage.

Hi HF,

I'd say that that's a fair understanding, but...

If there are difficulties in the manuscript texts, then there are likewise difficulties in any work translated from that text in that it would still carry over those 'difficulties'. Jesus has promised us that God's word will not be lost to us until at least the day of God's judgment. Through base text 'difficulties' God's word is still preserved. He is God. He can do that. He can do that through a group of men who have take upon themselves the responsibility and task of translating the best available base texts in the 1600's and He can do that through a group of men who have taken upon themselves the responsibility and task of translating the best available base texts of the 20th century. He is God and through His Spirit He can guide those who love Him and are called His children to do His will upon the earth. Everyone else, not so much.

When I get involved in these arguments about which text is best, I always come away with this understanding that people who spend wasted hours in such an endeavor have not grasped the purpose for which God gave unto mankind His Scriptures. They just don't seem to have fully grasped why God, beginning with Moses, caused, through His Spirit, men to write down the words that we and His Son, refer to as the Scriptures. They seem to want to nit pick a word or phrase here or there and just overlook the overarching plan for 'why' God gave us the Scriptures.

God began with Moses and through other faithful servants of His upon the earth, to give us a written account of 'who' He is. 'What' He has done in creating this realm in which we live. 'How' He has worked through His people, Israel, to get this account of His written down that mankind might know the way of His salvation. When everything was recorded as God desired that it be done, He sent His Son to die for our sin. He has given all men a fair warning of who He is, and how much He loves us and that He will set forth a plan whereby a man might be saved from His wrath. After all of that was recorded He sent His Son to fulfill that plan. He then caused His children of Israel to write down 'where' this is all headed and 'how' it's all going to be brought to a close. Within that framework He has liberally sprinkled in the 'what an individual must do' to gain the salvation that He will give to those who have understood and made Him the God and ruler of their lives, on the day He judges all mankind.

As I understand the Scriptures, that is the sum total of the purpose for which God began, through Moses and His faithful servants, a written accounting of all these things. He didn't give it to us to be like the leaders in Israel to argue and squabble over this word or that phrase, which leads unbelievers to think that we don't understand the truth of God anymore than they do. God's glory is besmudged, when instead of using His Scriptures, like Phillip, to show unbelievers this wonderful way of salvation that is available to them, choosing instead to squabble amongst ourselves as to who got the words right.

As Jesus told the leaders of Israel, "You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." I don't want to be like them! I've read through several various translations of God's word that have been made by men since the days that God began with Moses, and in absolute and complete conviction, I have not found a one of the 'reliable' translations that fails in the purpose for which God gave unto mankind His Scriptures.

The NASB is clear about 'who' God is and all that He has done. It is clear in explaining to us how a man might be saved.
The NIV is clear about 'who' God is and all that He has done. It is clear in explaining to us how a man might be saved.
The KJV is clear about 'who' God is and all that He has done. It is clear in explaining to us how a man might be saved.
The NKJV is clear about 'who' God is and all that He has done. It is clear in explaining to us how a man might be saved.
The RSV is clear about 'who' God is and all that He has done. It is clear in explaining to us how a man might be saved.
The NRSV is clear about 'who' God is and all that He has done. It is clear in explaining to us how a man might be saved.

Are there minor differences here and there as to the exact words used? Yes. Are there some few passages that are contained in one and not another? Yes. But in the end, when we understand 'why' God gave unto mankind His truth we find that they are all clear about 'who' God is and all that He has done. It is clear in explaining to us how a man might be saved.
God has worked through even the foibles and frailties of men to preserve His truth and to give understanding to men of 'who' He is and how any individual might gain His coming salvation of those who will heed it.

If I may be so bold as to ask a few questions: In the overarching plan of God's way of salvation, does it make a difference that men might have mistranslated the word for the adjective of the fourth horseman? Whether the fourth horseman is pale or green, does it make a difference in the truth? Will the fourth horseman, whether he is pale or green, act differently than what the Scriptures tell us he will be doing? Is there some hidden meaning that we won't be able to grasp if we understand the fourth horseman as pale instead of green? Do you honestly think that God, on His throne in heaven, is wiping His hands of all of us because we didn't get the color of the fourth horseman right? Do you believe that God is much more concerned that we translated this single adjective correctly than our understanding and showing others, the way of His salvation?

Me, if I were explaining to someone the glory and power of God and the way of His salvation and this particular passage came up, I'd tell them honestly, "The word translated as 'pale' here, may be better translated as 'green', but here's what that fourth horseman, whatever his color is, will be doing upon the earth. This is what you want to watch for and understand because you're never actually going to see the horseman and so his color doesn't matter. But, you will be seeing the effects of his roaming about the earth and that is what you need to be aware of.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted
 
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miamited

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Hi all,

As a follow up to my last post let me posit this:

The Scriptures speak of God's desire for all men. That they be saved. We are not working towards God's desire when, instead of using His Scriptures to tell others the truth, we bicker and squabble over a simple word or phrase. We argue and discuss 'which' translation of the Scriptures is the only one that is any good. I'm confident that God isn't amused by such wasteful energy on His behalf. God is the one who will preserve His Scriptures. What He asks of us is that we use them to tell others the truth. It's fine if an individual feels that the KJ is the best translation for them. The error of men comes when we begin to believe and teach that it is the only reliable translation. There were many reliable translations before the KJ came to be and there are many reliable translations that have come after. The KJ is but one of many of man's efforts to faithfully bring unto mankind the truth of God.

Personally, I came to know of God's truth and desire for me through the NIV translation, but I am willing to take whatever translation someone is holding in their hands to also explain to them God's truth and desire for them. I believe that God honors that work. That He is much more pleased by those who will simply teach His truth, than argue over what that truth is. Let's be about the work for which God has sent the laborers into His field and leave God with the work of preserving His Scriptures through His Holy Spirit. He is God! He can do that! In the same way that He caused His truth to be made known to man, He can also preserve that same truth for the generations to come. He is God! It is in His interest to fulfill all that He has promised to do. We are men and it is in our best interest to do that which God has asked us to do.

When Jesus said of the leaders of Israel: You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. He didn't mean that they actually used a seive to catch gnats and he didn't mean that they actually ate camels. What he meant, I believe, is exactly what we see here. We have so many who are straining out a word here or a phrase there, yet allowing the light of salvation to completely pass men by in their efforts of straining the gnats.


God bless you all.
In Christ, Ted.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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No, I am telling you that Kloros means pale when in reference to complexion. Even princeton guy acknowledges this..I also would ask that u consult your beloved critical text Bibles and realize how many even of them favor the reading 'pale' without any color attached. This is a fact and one u can obviously verify if u take the time..Unless ud rather just knock a perfectly good translation in your ignorance?

I did not acknowledge that χλωρός means pale when in reference to complexion. I wrote,

To be more accurate, the Greek word χλωρός is typically used in ancient Greek literature of the color of the ventral side of leaves which is usually a lighter color of green than is found on the dorsal side of the same leaves. It is true, however, that it is sometimes used of a person whose complexion has taken on that color due to illness.​

Moreover, I did not quote from outdated, obsolete lexicons as did HonestFisherman88, and I suggested that he should not do so either. The correct meaning of the Greek words used in the New Testament is not to be determined from outdated, obsolete lexicons, or from translations based upon those lexicons.

If someone can post an example where I am incorrect, I'll reverse myself, but I have been thru every " error" I can find mention of on any website, in any book, or pointed out by second rate "scholars" who seek to spread falsehoods based on misunderstanding.

I posted an example of a severely incorrect translation in the KJV at Numbers 10:2. I could post many more examples, but there is no need for me to do so because they have been posted on many websites, and anyone who has truly studied the accuracy of the KJV is aware of these errors. Moreover, calling people “second rate ‘scholars’” when they have actually earned advanced degrees from Universities respected around the world for their academic excellence is an act of extreme dishonesty.
 
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HonestFisherman88

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I did not acknowledge that χλωρός means pale when in reference to complexion. I wrote,

To be more accurate, the Greek word χλωρός is typically used in ancient Greek literature of the color of the ventral side of leaves which is usually a lighter color of green than is found on the dorsal side of the same leaves. It is true, however, that it is sometimes used of a person whose complexion has taken on that color due to illness.​

Moreover, I did not quote from outdated, obsolete lexicons as did HonestFisherman88, and I suggested that he should not do so either. The correct meaning of the Greek words used in the New Testament is not to be determined from outdated, obsolete lexicons, or from translations based upon those lexicons.



I posted an example of a severely incorrect translation in the KJV at Numbers 10:2. I could post many more examples, but there is no need for me to do so because they have been posted on many websites, and anyone who has truly studied the accuracy of the KJV is aware of these errors. Moreover, calling people “second rate ‘scholars’” when they have actually earned advanced degrees from Universities respected around the world for their academic excellence is an act of extreme dishonesty.

^ i would like it to be noted that Princeton guy, for all of his academic excellence actually believes people turn green when they become sick LOL

Furthermore i find it hard to accept that i must quote from lexicons that were updated, revised, and altered by those wholly indoctrinated into the textual criticism dogma SIMPLY that they may agree with the assumptions, opinions, and view points of the a corrupted academic community who refuses anything but the absolute acceptance of their foolishly flawed viewpoint, after their authors had passed...It stinks of darwinian flavor to be blunt..Darwins views have died, but the superstructure of his viewpoint are ever added to and revised to fit his dead assumption. The entire field of biblical textual criticism is dominated by theologically deficient and quite frankly secular minds who, while admittedly all the viewpoints associated with their theory have died, yet the superstructure, much like that of evolution, has become the accepted view and is ever revised, added to and altered to fit such a view... . I have zero faith in the deductions, the conclusions, or the viewpoints of a person who has their mind concluded before the outset that there is no correct Bible and therefore we must assemble one (as if we are the proverbial Isis seeking to reunite the pieces of our long lost Osiris) furthermore Princetonguy, i find it hilarious that u seem to so easily deny the correct nature of the KJV when in every single "erroneous passage" there is ample defense (you refuse to accept it citing "obvious error" as if u are a higher authority than any other student of ancient greek..u should at least admit that there is far from a world wide consensus and that there are many who disagree with your assumptions who absolutely have the credentials to appease your hunger for secular approval.) while at the same time supporting a host of dynamic equivalences in your own translations which quite frankly obscure meanings, add dimensions not found in the text nor in the marginal notes...IF i were u, id stick to studying Romans and writing down textual variations for when u write your own Bible...But for those of us who are not ready to take the opinions and baser assumptions of theologically deficient (and many times blatant atheist,agnostic,or otherwise less than faithful) witnesses, you will have to excuse us for not taking the word of people whose sole belief is that there is no correct translation and that we need secular scholars to give us one. Numbers 10:2 is in no wise in error in the KJV and i have obviously pointed this out.. The nature of the construction demands it be of hammered work..and this IS but a small detail to begin with...if this translation has any true errors that cannot be easily resolved via context, or a simple check of an online lexicon please post one..

As for the dispute of Numbers 10:2 ..the word miqshah pronounced (mik-shaw) is debatable in exact definition...even Strongs Exhaustive Concordance gives a description that is less than exact in nature


Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says:
beaten out of one piece, work, upright, whole piece
Feminine of miqsheh; rounded work, i.e. Moulded by hammering (repousse) -- beaten (out of one piece, work), upright, whole piece.

NAS Concordance likewise renders it less than definite:


NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from the same as miqsheh
Definition
perhaps hammered work
NASB Translation
hammered work (9).

^ perhaps being less than absolute in certainty


I do not personally debate that the work was obviously hammered work, but Miqshah cannot be said to be improperly translated as "whole peice" even tho your own favorite translators may have chosen to do follow a textual tradition, or a desired rendering as u might call it....unless Strongs is no longer to be accepted as relatively correct according to your favorite scholars?

E-sword's Strongs reference system even supplies "perhaps of hammered work" which i dont debate, but "severely in error" is beyond true in any facet of the word
 
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miamited

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^ i would like it to be noted that Princeton guy, for all of his academic excellence actually believes people turn green when they become sick LOL

Hi HF,

I honestly don't know why you are even arguing this point from a KJ only position. Here's the exact wording as found in the 1611 KJ:
And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, & his name that sate on him was Death, and hell followed with him: and power was giuen vnto them, ouer the fourth part of the earth to kill with sword, & with hunger, and with death, and with the beastes of the earth.

So, please explain to me why this issue of the horse's color being pale or green has anything to do with whether or not the KJ is a more correct rendering of the Scriptures. It would seem that the original translators thought the word could well mean 'pale' also.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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HonestFisherman88

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Hi HF,

I honestly don't know why you are even arguing this point from a KJ only position. Here's the exact wording as found in the 1611 KJ:
And I looked, and behold, a pale horse, & his name that sate on him was Death, and hell followed with him: and power was giuen vnto them, ouer the fourth part of the earth to kill with sword, & with hunger, and with death, and with the beastes of the earth.

So, please explain to me why this issue of the horse's color being pale or green has anything to do with whether or not the KJ is a more correct rendering of the Scriptures. It would seem that the original translators thought the word could well mean 'pale' also.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted


You mistake my position..im not KJ only..but i DO NOT agree that the KJV is a lesser translation that the modern texts. I do not dispute Kloros can mean green, but i do maintain that it can absolutely be rendered as "pale" without being "in error" in fact you will find MANY translations choose this rendering.....i am a King James user (bet u couldnt tell :p ) and i make it a point to investigate every "error" that is brought to me..so far in all of my time of studying, i find 0 true errors in translation. all i intended in posting here was to defend the King James as being a validly accurate translation..some folks are obviously offended by this and have taken upon themselves to refute me and so here i stand, i can do no other.


there are many translations, and God can reach u through any of them, but i wont stand silent while false errors are laid at the one scripture i know i have spent much time investigating (starting as skeptically in the acceptance of its accuracy as can reasonably be expected...if it was wrong id abandon it in favor of a "right translation") and yet i find the issue more to be one of "desired rendering" as opposed to "incorrect rendering"....in example Princeton guy would rather render kloros as 'Pale green' but that by no means makes 'pale' an incorrect rendering, merely undesirable to his mind..this is NOT a translational error, and nor can it be called one...the same rendering is found in translations from many other languages as well, i think that at least lends equal validity to the rendering
 
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miamited

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You mistake my position..im not KJ only..but i DO NOT agree that the KJV is a lesser translation that the modern texts. I do not dispute Kloros can mean green, but that it can absolutely be rendered as "pale" without being "in error" in fact you will find MANY translations choose this rendering...i am a King James user (bet u couldnt tell :p ) and i make it a point to investigate every "error" that is brought to me..so far in all of my time of studying, i find 0 true errors in translation. all i intended in posting here was to defend the King James as being a validly accurate translation..some folks are obviously offended by this and have taken upon themselves to refute me and so here i stand, i can do no other.


there are many translations, and God can reach u through any of them, but i wont stand silent while false errors are laid at the one scripture i know i have spent much time investigating (starting as skeptically in the acceptance of its accuracy as can reasonably be expected...if it was wrong id abandon it in favor of a "right translation") and yet i find the issue more to be one of "desired rendering" as opposed to "incorrect rendering"....in example Princeton guy would rather render kloros as 'Pale green' but that by no means makes 'pale' an incorrect rendering, merely undesirable to his mind..this is NOT a translational error, and nor can it be called one...the same rendering is found in translations from many other languages as well, i think that at least lends equal validity to the rendering

HI HF,
Oh, I'm sorry. That's what happens sometimes when those who follow these threads don't keep up. So, you two have gone off somewhere away from the OP. I'm glad that you straightened that out. I am absolutely in agreement with you that any good reliable translation of the Scriptures will show an individual the truth. It could certainly be that the horse is pale green. After all, there is also a fiery red one, and I've never seen one of those either.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted
 
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CGL1023

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The Authorized Version (as it is known in the Commonwealth) is a fine translation. I use it daily for study, devotions and my Pastor preaches from it. That stated it is a translation, the providential preservation of the scriptures refers to the inspired Hebrew and Greek, not the translation of them.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
Finally, an opinion that makes sense.

I notice in my KJV that in Acts 12:4, a reference to Passover is rendered as "Easter".

I have seen in Isaiah the mention of "unicorn", "cockatrice" and "satyr"; beings from mythology.

I am sure that with 400 years of scientific advancement, a better translation than the King James Version is or could be available. To give due credit, the KJV is a monumental work. I heard some speaker decades ago say the KJV "forged in the fires of persecution" and we can recall Wycliffe and Tyndale as examples.
 
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HonestFisherman88

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HI HF,
Oh, I'm sorry. That's what happens sometimes when those who follow these threads don't keep up. So, you two have gone off somewhere away from the OP. I'm glad that you straightened that out. I am absolutely in agreement with you that any good reliable translation of the Scriptures will show an individual the truth. It could certainly be that the horse is pale green. After all, there is also a fiery red one, and I've never seen one of those either.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted


i suppose i have wandered too far from the point of the thread here >.< thats absolutely my fault...I read a little of the thread, seen some erroneous detractions against the KJV and decided to defend it, without realizing i was derailing the thread :D
 
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joshuanazar

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No, I am telling you that Kloros means pale when in reference to complexion. Even princeton guy acknowledges this..I also would ask that u consult your beloved critical text Bibles and realize how many even of them favor the reading 'pale' without any color attached. This is a fact and one u can obviously verify if u take the time..Unless ud rather just knock a perfectly good translation in your ignorance?



My position is that the KJV is an accurate faithful translation, that it still today is the most accurate translation that can be had in English, both in the OT and the NT. I stated that I am willing to defend my position, and that's why I ask for another example..Difficulties exist (believe it or not) in the manuscript texts and these I will not accept as "translational issues". The KJV, I have found, through careful and thorough study, displays absolute fidelity to the text in either the text or the marginal notes on even the most difficult to translate passage. If someone can post an example where I am incorrect, I'll reverse myself, but I have been thru every " error" I can find mention of on any website, in any book, or pointed out by second rate "scholars" who seek to spread falsehoods based on misunderstanding. I really do mean no disrespect to anyone here, and I'm willing to do this privately so as to avoid the appearance of publicized contention, but I assure u I can defend the Translation against all accusation of inaccuracy.
Whether the word kloros can refer to complexion is not the case in these scriptures since it is referring to color. White, red and black are colors or shades of color so then if the first three horses deal with color then shouldn't the fourth be too? Anyways I don't want to argue about words. I agree that the kjv is a good translation regardless of its origins. It is my favorite translation by far. I just don't agree that it is a perfect translation. I don't believe that there is ever a prefect translation. I also believe that is why letting the Holy Spirit guide you is so important. If you believe that the kjv is a perfect translation than I have no problem with that. The only issue I will ever have is when people think that the word of God is exclusive to a translation.
 
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JM

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Finally, an opinion that makes sense.

I notice in my KJV that in Acts 12:4, a reference to Passover is rendered as "Easter".

The word Easter is not necessarily wrong. The word Pascha is translated in reference to the nation of Israel being delivered from bondage and used only three times after the resurrection (Acts 12.4; 1 Cor. 5.7; Heb. 11.28)

Quote: Our word Easter is of Saxon origin and of precisely the same import with its German cognate OSTERN. The German word for Easter (Ostern) is derived from the old Teutonic form of auferstehen / auferstehung, that is - RESURRECTION." This is quoted from "Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History," translated in 1850 by C. F. Cruse, Hendrickson Publishers, p 437.

So, I would say the word had a new meaning in English that was connected with the Resurrection which is why many English translations of the time used the word Easter.

I have seen in Isaiah the mention of "unicorn", "cockatrice" and "satyr"; beings from mythology.

The use of unicorn was due to the corrupting influence of the Septuagint (LXX). The LXX used the word "one horn" where the Hebrew mean "wild ox."

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Furthermore i find it hard to accept that i must quote from lexicons that were updated, revised, and altered by those wholly indoctrinated into the textual criticism dogma SIMPLY that they may agree with the assumptions, opinions, and view points of the a corrupted academic community who refuses anything but the absolute acceptance of their foolishly flawed viewpoint, after their authors had passed...It stinks of darwinian flavor to be blunt..Darwins views have died, but the superstructure of his viewpoint are ever added to and revised to fit his dead assumption. The entire field of biblical textual criticism is dominated by theologically deficient and quite frankly secular minds who, while admittedly all the viewpoints associated with their theory have died, yet the superstructure, much like that of evolution, has become the accepted view and is ever revised, added to and altered to fit such a view... . I have zero faith in the deductions, the conclusions, or the viewpoints of a person who has their mind concluded before the outset that there is no correct Bible and therefore we must assemble one (as if we are the proverbial Isis seeking to reunite the pieces of our long lost Osiris)


Well, there we have it from the horse’s mouth! The Greek lexicons were accurate up until 1979 when the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature was revised “by those wholly indoctrinated into the textual criticism dogma SIMPLY that they may agree with the assumptions, opinions, and view points of the a corrupted academic community who refuses anything but the absolute acceptance of their foolishly flawed viewpoint, after their authors had passed...It stinks of darwinian flavor to be blunt….”
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I did not write that the translation given in the KJV at Rev. 6:8 is “wrong”. I wrote,
To be more accurate, the Greek word χλωρός is typically used in ancient Greek literature of the color of the ventral side of leaves which is usually a lighter color of green than is found on the dorsal side of the same leaves. It is true, however, that it is sometimes used of a person whose complexion has taken on that color due to illness....Nonetheless, the translation given in the KJV is not a “wrong” translation, but an inferior translation to that found in the NRSV,

Revelation 6:8. I looked and there was a pale green horse! Its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed with him; they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and pestilence, and by the wild animals of the earth.
 
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HonestFisherman88

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Whether the word kloros can refer to complexion is not the case in these scriptures since it is referring to color. White, red and black are colors or shades of color so then if the first three horses deal with color then shouldn't the fourth be too? Anyways I don't want to argue about words. I agree that the kjv is a good translation regardless of its origins. It is my favorite translation by far. I just don't agree that it is a perfect translation. I don't believe that there is ever a prefect translation. I also believe that is why letting the Holy Spirit guide you is so important. If you believe that the kjv is a perfect translation than I have no problem with that. The only issue I will ever have is when people think that the word of God is exclusive to a translation.


it is referring to color absolutely, but the context is the horse ridden by death...Do u honestly mean to say, the idea that death would ride a "pale horse" seems less likely that death riding a "green horse"..obviously textual tradition (meaning a whole lot of translators from a whole lot of back grounds over a whole lot of years) supports the concept that its entirely rational to accept a "pale horse" rendering...even as far back as the Early Church Fathers writings...i do not wish to debate personal preference of translation..but i do maintain that the 'pale horse' rendering is absolutely in keeping with the text, with the context of the text, and with the general consensus of translators (in multiple languages) that has been well established over many centuries.
 
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HonestFisherman88

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Well, there we have it from the horse’s mouth! The Greek lexicons were accurate up until 1979 when the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature was revised “by those wholly indoctrinated into the textual criticism dogma SIMPLY that they may agree with the assumptions, opinions, and view points of the a corrupted academic community who refuses anything but the absolute acceptance of their foolishly flawed viewpoint, after their authors had passed...It stinks of darwinian flavor to be blunt….”


so glad u finally agree with me on something. :D

i figured id post this review of BDAG


"A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition (BDAG). Revised and Edited by Frederick William Danker. Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 2000. ISBN 0-226-03933-1. Pp.lxxx + 1,108.
Reviewed by Kim Haines-Eitzen
Department of Near Eastern Studies, Cornell University


F. W. Danker's publication of the Third English Edition of A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature is based upon previous English editions (the 1957 edition by William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingerich and the 1979 edition by F. W. Gingerich and f. W. Danker) as well as the sixth edition of Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Wörterbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur (published in 1988 and edited by Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, with Viktor Reichmann). BDAG (Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingerich)-as it is now to be known-offers entries for additional words not found in previous editions and includes over 15,000 additional references to classical and early Christian and Jewish literature. But by far the most significant contribution of this new edition is the expanded use of extended definitions, helpfully marked off in a boldface roman font, followed by formal equivalents, in boldface italic font. Such expansions and modifications insure the continuance of BDAG as the major lexical tool for New Testament Greek studies.

A few examples will suffice to illustrate how Danker (building upon Bauer's work) uses extended definitions followed by formal equivalents: biblos, which BAGD 2ND edition defines as "book" and further as "sacred, venerable book," is here explained as "a specific composition or class of composition, book" and "a book of accounts, record-book" (176); brosis goes from "eating," "corrosion," and "food" to "the act of partaking of food, eating," "the process of causing deterioration by consuming, consuming" and "that which one eats, food" (184-185); gameo goes from "marry" to "to take another person as spouse, marry" (187). Even a cursory glance at such modifications highlights Danker's desire for more clarity. At times, however, this clarity borders on the absurd. For example, oinos now is "a beverage made from fermented juice of the grape, wine" (701); elaia is "a tree that produces olives, olive tree" (313); elaion, the "oil extracted from the fruit of the olive tree, olive oil" (313). In each of these cases what does the extended definition really add to the formal equivalent? In each of these instances, Danker has apparently relied heavily upon (he himself acknowledges the debt in the Foreward [xi]) Johannes P. Louw and Eugene A. Nida's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1988, 1989). Here, of course, extended definitions highlight semantic links. The use of certain extended definitions in BDAG can seem redundant and unnecessary.

A few selected criticisms of BDAG will encourage critical and careful use of this lexicon. First, some words definitions seem to be (at least in part) driven by modern ideological or religious concerns (Danker himself acknowledges this in his Foreward). A case in point is Ioudaios, which in BAGD is defined in its most common sense: "Jewish," "Jews," and/or "a Jew." In BDAG, quite surprisingly, this most common definition has been relegated to a secondary position and only appears within parentheses: "Pertaining to being Judean (Jewish), with a focus on adherence to Mosaic traditions, Judean"; "one who is Judean (Jewish), with a focus on adherence to Mosaic tradition, Judean"; and further as "Judean with respect to birth, nationality, or cult" and "a Mosaic adherent who identifies with Jesus Christ" (479). The scholarly debate on the appropriate translation of Ioudaios notwithstanding, one wonders what motivates such a radical shift. Moreover, the implications if this substitution of Judean for Jew in much early Christian literature will simultaneously render both the use of the term meaningless and absolve this literature of its increasingly antagonistic view of Jews and Judaism. Danker acknowledges in the final paragraph of the entry the various scholarly disputes about the use of this term in the New Testament, especially in the Gospel of John, but argues that "there is no indication that John uses the term in the general ethnic sense suggested in modern use of the word 'Jew', which covers diversities of belief and practice that were not envisaged by biblical writers, who concern themselves with intra-Judean (intra-Israelite) differences and conflicts" (479). Such a claim begs several questions: are we to imagine that the writer of the Gospel of John has in mind all those who derive in some way from Judea when he/she uses the term Ioudaios? If an ancient writer reduces diversity within a community, tradition, or movement for the purposes of rhetorical persuasiveness, what happens if we offer a translation that eliminates the force of the argument? Precisely because ancient writers do not share our modern world, we must find translations that make sense for their world and their rhetorical, political, and religious aims, however distasteful it may seem to us today. Recognizing the contrast between the ancient and modern worlds is part of what it means to read critically and carefully.

At certain points, one wishes for more acknowledgement of scholarly debates about various terms: for example, grammateus is identified here as "chief executive officer of a governmental entity, secretary (of state), clerk"; "an expert in matters relating to diving revelation" and "specialists in the law of Moses, experts in the law, scholars versed in the law, scribes" (206). However, such definitions will be highly problematic if one uses this lexicon to articulate the roles of scribes in antiquity, particularly Jewish scribes. Here is a rather clear instance when the New Testament materials stereotyped and constructed an image of Jewish "scribes" that is at odds with other kinds of contemporaneous evidence (see most recently, Christine Schams, Jewish Scribes in the Second-Temple Period [Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1998] 323). Similarly, the term agrammatos (here glossed as "unable to write"; "uneducated, illiterate" [15]) offers no hint of the enormous amount of recent scholarly literature on literacy in antiquity. Such complaints may be unwarranted since this is a lexicon rather than a encyclopedia, but the spotty incorporation of scholarly debates calls again for critical and careful use of this work.

Finally, one could argue that a lexicon that claims in its subtitle to include "other early Christian literature," might do well to incorporate this literature further. There are cases where apocryphal literature, for example, could and should be included to illustrate how the meaning and connotation of certain words changes over time (or from text to text). Take the word egkrateia, here defined quite mildly as "restraint of one's emotions, impulses, or desires, self-control" (274). Such a definition is reasonable for much of classical literature as well as the New Testament and Danker includes the gloss on Polycarp 4:2 ("chastity") from previous editions. However, when one turns to the early Christian texts pertaining to the rise of asceticism, one finds here a far more specific understanding of egkrateia as "celibacy." Given the significance and spread of early Christian asceticism and Danker's desire to include more early Christian literature in this edition, it seems surprising that such a definition is not mentioned here.

These comments in no way lessen the value of this resource; rather, they should simply encourage us to read lexica as we do other texts, both ancient and modern: critically, carefully, and comparatively. Furthermore, a close reading of a lexicon can remind us of the complex theoretical and practical problems involved in the act of ascribing meaning to words, to phrases, and to texts. BDAG will remain the standard reference tool for students and scholars of the New Testament and other early Christian literature for the foreseeable future."

"A few selected criticisms of BDAG will encourage critical and careful use of this lexicon. First, some words definitions seem to be (at least in part) driven by modern ideological or religious concerns"

"There are cases where apocryphal literature, for example, could and should be included to illustrate how the meaning and connotation of certain words changes over time (or from text to text)"


"Furthermore, a close reading of a lexicon can remind us of the complex theoretical and practical problems involved in the act of ascribing meaning to words, to phrases, and to texts."

^ im not just barking at the moon and lexicons are wonderful, but i think u may be bowing down before your Lexicon and burning incense to it or something man... u seem to be a espousing bit of a BDAG-onlyism xD
 
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PrincetonGuy

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i figured id post this review of BDAG


"A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition (BDAG). Revised and Edited by Frederick William Danker. Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 2000. ISBN 0-226-03933-1. Pp.lxxx + 1,108.

Reviewed by Kim Haines-Eitzen

Department of Near Eastern Studies, CornellUniversity


F. W. Danker's publication of the Third English Edition of A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature is based upon previous English editions (the 1957 edition by William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingerich and the 1979 edition by F. W. Gingerich and f. W. Danker) as well as the sixth edition of Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Wörterbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur (published in 1988 and edited by Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, with Viktor Reichmann). BDAG (Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingerich)-as it is now to be known-offers entries for additional words not found in previous editions and includes over 15,000 additional references to classical and early Christian and Jewish literature. But by far the most significant contribution of this new edition is the expanded use of extended definitions, helpfully marked off in a boldface roman font, followed by formal equivalents, in boldface italic font. Such expansions and modifications insure the continuance of BDAG as the major lexical tool for New Testament Greek studies.


A few examples will suffice to illustrate how Danker (building upon Bauer's work) uses extended definitions followed by formal equivalents: biblos, which BAGD 2ND edition defines as "book" and further as "sacred, venerable book," is here explained as "a specific composition or class of composition, book" and "a book of accounts, record-book" (176); brosis goes from "eating," "corrosion," and "food" to "the act of partaking of food, eating," "the process of causing deterioration by consuming, consuming" and "that which one eats, food" (184-185); gameo goes from "marry" to "to take another person as spouse, marry" (187). Even a cursory glance at such modifications highlights Danker's desire for more clarity. At times, however, this clarity borders on the absurd. For example, oinos now is "a beverage made from fermented juice of the grape, wine" (701); elaia is "a tree that produces olives, olive tree" (313); elaion, the "oil extracted from the fruit of the olive tree, olive oil" (313). In each of these cases what does the extended definition really add to the formal equivalent? In each of these instances, Danker has apparently relied heavily upon (he himself acknowledges the debt in the Foreward [xi]) Johannes P. Louw and Eugene A. Nida's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1988, 1989). Here, of course, extended definitions highlight semantic links. The use of certain extended definitions in BDAG can seem redundant and unnecessary.


A few selected criticisms of BDAG will encourage critical and careful use of this lexicon. First, some words definitions seem to be (at least in part) driven by modern ideological or religious concerns (Danker himself acknowledges this in his Foreward). A case in point is Ioudaios, which in BAGD is defined in its most common sense: "Jewish," "Jews," and/or "a Jew." In BDAG, quite surprisingly, this most common definition has been relegated to a secondary position and only appears within parentheses: "Pertaining to being Judean (Jewish), with a focus on adherence to Mosaic traditions, Judean"; "one who is Judean (Jewish), with a focus on adherence to Mosaic tradition, Judean"; and further as "Judean with respect to birth, nationality, or cult" and "a Mosaic adherent who identifies with Jesus Christ" (479). The scholarly debate on the appropriate translation of Ioudaios notwithstanding, one wonders what motivates such a radical shift. Moreover, the implications if this substitution of Judean for Jew in much early Christian literature will simultaneously render both the use of the term meaningless and absolve this literature of its increasingly antagonistic view of Jews and Judaism. Danker acknowledges in the final paragraph of the entry the various scholarly disputes about the use of this term in the New Testament, especially in the Gospel of John, but argues that "there is no indication that John uses the term in the general ethnic sense suggested in modern use of the word 'Jew', which covers diversities of belief and practice that were not envisaged by biblical writers, who concern themselves with intra-Judean (intra-Israelite) differences and conflicts" (479). Such a claim begs several questions: are we to imagine that the writer of the Gospel of John has in mind all those who derive in some way from Judea when he/she uses the term Ioudaios? If an ancient writer reduces diversity within a community, tradition, or movement for the purposes of rhetorical persuasiveness, what happens if we offer a translation that eliminates the force of the argument? Precisely because ancient writers do not share our modern world, we must find translations that make sense for their world and their rhetorical, political, and religious aims, however distasteful it may seem to us today. Recognizing the contrast between the ancient and modern worlds is part of what it means to read critically and carefully.


At certain points, one wishes for more acknowledgement of scholarly debates about various terms: for example, grammateus is identified here as "chief executive officer of a governmental entity, secretary (of state), clerk"; "an expert in matters relating to diving revelation" and "specialists in the law of Moses, experts in the law, scholars versed in the law, scribes" (206). However, such definitions will be highly problematic if one uses this lexicon to articulate the roles of scribes in antiquity, particularly Jewish scribes. Here is a rather clear instance when the New Testament materials stereotyped and constructed an image of Jewish "scribes" that is at odds with other kinds of contemporaneous evidence (see most recently, Christine Schams, Jewish Scribes in the Second-Temple Period [Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1998] 323). Similarly, the term agrammatos (here glossed as "unable to write"; "uneducated, illiterate" [15]) offers no hint of the enormous amount of recent scholarly literature on literacy in antiquity. Such complaints may be unwarranted since this is a lexicon rather than a encyclopedia, but the spotty incorporation of scholarly debates calls again for critical and careful use of this work.


Finally, one could argue that a lexicon that claims in its subtitle to include "other early Christian literature," might do well to incorporate this literature further. There are cases where apocryphal literature, for example, could and should be included to illustrate how the meaning and connotation of certain words changes over time (or from text to text). Take the word egkrateia, here defined quite mildly as "restraint of one's emotions, impulses, or desires, self-control" (274). Such a definition is reasonable for much of classical literature as well as the New Testament and Danker includes the gloss on Polycarp 4:2 ("chastity") from previous editions. However, when one turns to the early Christian texts pertaining to the rise of asceticism, one finds here a far more specific understanding of egkrateia as "celibacy." Given the significance and spread of early Christian asceticism and Danker's desire to include more early Christian literature in this edition, it seems surprising that such a definition is not mentioned here.


These comments in no way lessen the value of this resource; rather, they should simply encourage us to read lexica as we do other texts, both ancient and modern: critically, carefully, and comparatively. Furthermore, a close reading of a lexicon can remind us of the complex theoretical and practical problems involved in the act of ascribing meaning to words, to phrases, and to texts. BDAG will remain the standard reference tool for students and scholars of the New Testament and other early Christian literature for the foreseeable future."


"A few selected criticisms of BDAG will encourage critical and careful use of this lexicon. First, some words definitions seem to be (at least in part) driven by modern ideological or religious concerns"


"There are cases where apocryphal literature, for example, could and should be included to illustrate how the meaning and connotation of certain words changes over time (or from text to text)"


"Furthermore, a close reading of a lexicon can remind us of the complex theoretical and practical problems involved in the act of ascribing meaning to words, to phrases, and to texts."


F. W. Danker is a man (Frederick William Danker), so of course Kim Haines-Eitzen is critical of his contribution to the BDAG. (You are aware, are you not, that Haines-Eitzen is a radical feminist that denies that the Apostle John wrote the Gospel According to John, and teaches that it was likely written by a woman!) Moreover, she is not a Greek lexicographer and therefore lacks even the most basic qualifications to write a review on a Greek Lexicon. Danker, on the other hand, was (he died three years ago at the age of 91) the pre-eminent lexicographer specializing in Koine Greek with nearly 50 years experience in that specialty. While he was teaching at Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, the seminary and the denomination that owned and governed the seminary (Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church) became somewhat liberal in their theology so he and a number of other faculty members resigned their positions and formed a new seminary (Concordia Seminary in Exile) that maintained a very conservative stance.


^ im not just barking at the moon and lexicons are wonderful, but i think u may be bowing down before your Lexicon and burning incense to it or something man... u seem to be a espousing bit of a BDAG-onlyism xD


If my 11-year-old nephew ever, in my presence, addressed another human being in such a disrespectful manner, I would sharply tell him what an insolent little punk he is and take him home to his father for further discipline.

In my personal library in my home and at work, I have very numerous volumes that summarize the most recent lexical research in the Biblical languages, and I very frequently avail myself of these volumes rather than depending too much upon a single lexicon. Indeed, I could quote, using only the volumes readily at hand, what the foremost scholars of The Revelation to John have to say about the correct translation of the Greek word χλωρός (pale green) in Revelation 6:8. These scholars include, among others:

Aune, David E.
Beale, G. K.
Beckwith, Isbon T.
Blount, Brian K,
Caird, G. B.
Charles, R. H.
Dusterdieck, Friedrich
Roloff, Jürgen - C.C.
Mauro, Philip
Mounce, Robert H.
Ramsay, William
Swete, Henry Barclay

There in nothing, absolutely nothing more important to me than the truth. Therefore, I believe that learning the truth is worth at least a little bit of effort.

It is very easy to ridicule Christians who believe that the truth is important enough to pursue it through both prayer and academic study, but spending the time in prayer and study takes a whole lot of effort—and it often requires the expenditure of many thousands of dollars. For some people, a four hundred-year-old translation of the Bible is all that is needed. For others, who desire to learn “the way of God more perfectly,” a four hundred-year-old translation of the Bible is not all that is needed.
 
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Unless I've missed it, something important has been overlooked.

The exposure I've had to various translations and my investigations into the matter over the years (while paling into insignificance compared to those done by others) have revealed the following matters.

There were a lot of corruptions progressively entered into the Scriptures in the early days to support evolving doctrines.

Some of those corruptions had not been identified when the KJV was prepared.

Many later translations (apart from those merely rewording the KJV in more modern language) have acknowledged more of those corruptions and dealt with them.

There are other items that are known to be possible (probable?) corruptions, that are retained because they are (may I use the term) comforting to have there.


But this is the important thing: the more “easy read” the version, the more likely it is to contain statements of doctrine. And while Church X and Church Y may be happy with those statements, I still believe it is dangerous (an abuse of Scripture).

So it may be important to have a less “easy read” version at hand for comparison purposes, especially when studying (as opposed to just reading).


That is why I tend to use the ESV mainly (the RSV before that). It acknowledges and dispenses with a number of corruptions, yet seems to be reasonably faithful to the original text.

I normally use the MKJV for quoting purposes because it is public domain.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
 
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