The Jewish roots and deep biblical look at the sacrament of confession

[Athanasias]

Dr. Brant Pitre Catholic bible scholar specializing in Jewish studies has done it again and has presented a new hour long lecture on the sacrament of confession to a priest and its Jewish and Biblical roots. The Catholic Church is just so Jewish!

Here is a 3 min teaser:

 

[MKJ]

I find this sort of thing historically interesting from an academic perspective, but I wonder a bit about the level of interest in it more generally. It seems to have some of the same motivations as the messianics do, as if it adds legitimacy.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Perspective is a better word than legitimacy.

 

[Catherineanne]

Dr. Brant Pitre Catholic bible scholar specializing in Jewish studies has done it again and has presented a new hour long lecture on the sacrament of confession to a priest and its Jewish and Biblical roots. The Catholic Church is just so Jewish!

Here is a 3 min teaser:

Most interesting. Thank you, Athanasias.

 

[Catherineanne]

I find this sort of thing historically interesting from an academic perspective, but I wonder a bit about the level of interest in it more generally. It seems to have some of the same motivations as the messianics do, as if it adds legitimacy.

Of course it adds legitimacy.

The question is only, do we ignore that legitimacy, or do we take it seriously.

 

[MKJ]

Of course it adds legitimacy.

The question is only, do we ignore that legitimacy, or do we take it seriously.

I don't think that is an obvious conclusion. Certainly it doesn't seem to work in the case of the MCs.

Why is it that in recent years people have become so concerned to tie themselves to "Jewish roots". It has never been a secret that many Christian ideas and practices have roots in Judaism. Plenty of others do not. For some reason we don't see many threads talking about the looking at our Greek roots, or how they give legitimacy, and yet they are at least as important. And there are plenty of aspects of the Christinan tradition that are rooted in Christianity itself.

This sort of desire for legitimacy is something I wouldn't really expect to be so prominent in a Catholic context. And I'm curious that people feel a need to create legitimacy at all.

 

[Athanasias]

I don't think that is an obvious conclusion. Certainly it doesn't seem to work in the case of the MCs.

Why is it that in recent years people have become so concerned to tie themselves to "Jewish roots". It has never been a secret that many Christian ideas and practices have roots in Judaism. Plenty of others do not. For some reason we don't see many threads talking about the looking at our Greek roots, or how they give legitimacy, and yet they are at least as important. And there are plenty of aspects of the Christinan tradition that are rooted in Christianity itself.

This sort of desire for legitimacy is something I wouldn't really expect to be so prominent in a Catholic context. And I'm curious that people feel a need to create legitimacy at all.

I view it as a development of doctrine which happens in Church history on all doctrines. At this point in history God is waking people up and granting them deeper penetration to see the greater fulfillment's of the Catholic Church as it perfectly fulfills biblical Judaism. At least that is my take.

 

[Athanasias]

Most interesting. Thank you, Athanasias.

Your welcome. Of course Dr. Feingold would also agree too I think.

 

[MKJ]

I view it as a development of doctrine which happens in Church history on all doctrines. At this point in history God is waking people up and granting them deeper penetration to see the greater fulfillment's of the Catholic Church as it perfectly fulfills biblical Judaism. At least that is my take.

Do you think that is what is happening with the MCs?

I think another possible answer is that many people, for some reason, have lost confidence in Tradition, and even in Scripture. So they look to try and recover some sort of connection to what seems like it must be "legitimate" Christianity. I suspect, for example, that that is behind a lot of the attempt to resurrect bits of old liturgies and use them in modern liturgies like the OF or the Anglican equivalents.

 

[Athanasias]

Do you think that is what is happening with the MCs?

I think another possible answer is that many people, for some reason, have lost confidence in Tradition, and even in Scripture. So they look to try and recover some sort of connection to what seems like it must be "legitimate" Christianity. I suspect, for example, that that is behind a lot of the attempt to resurrect bits of old liturgies and use them in modern liturgies like the OF or the Anglican equivalents.

Well If they are looking to Jewish roots then they are looking to tradition at least in the Catholic Church sense. Tradition is powerful and living.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Maybe it's because our Church tends to look at things through the lens of the Gospel and the NT ... and confession really isn't something we need to question since it is mentioned directly in Scripture (though admittedly not in a necessarily sacramental form).

But for that reason, if anything, I tend to think that it "legitimatizes" the practices of Judaism as much or more so than Christianity. Both are handed down from God, so I don't really need to "legitimize" either. But ... that isn't to say that the connection isn't interesting. It certainly is.

As to the possible argument against the sacramental nature of confession I brought up in the first point above, I don't think that necessarily needs to be a point of argument either. I very much appreciate the Orthodox view that essentially all of life can be sacramental, meaning that a life lived properly can involve the grace of God bestowed through any/all/most of our actions - and this action IS commanded in Scripture. Anyone who has ever confessed from the heart to any fellow human they might have wronged has likely experienced some measure of grace in the reconciliation with that person.

But as I said, the connections between Christianity and Judaism are always interesting, though not so surprising the more that I learn.

 

[Catherineanne]

Well If they are looking to Jewish roots then they are looking to tradition at least in the Catholic Church sense. Tradition is powerful and living.

Yes, Tradition is living and all churches have Tradition, whether they admit it or not. Ironically, the (mistaken) motif of not following Tradition has itself become a widespread modern tradition.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't think that is an obvious conclusion. Certainly it doesn't seem to work in the case of the MCs.

Why is it that in recent years people have become so concerned to tie themselves to "Jewish roots". It has never been a secret that many Christian ideas and practices have roots in Judaism. Plenty of others do not. For some reason we don't see many threads talking about the looking at our Greek roots, or how they give legitimacy, and yet they are at least as important. And there are plenty of aspects of the Christinan tradition that are rooted in Christianity itself.

This sort of desire for legitimacy is something I wouldn't really expect to be so prominent in a Catholic context. And I'm curious that people feel a need to create legitimacy at all.

It is not about creating anything. Either a practice is legitimate or it isn't. That legitimacy does not come from Judaism or Catholicism, but from God himself, through the Scriptures. Very often practices that we regard as purely Christian will prove to have very deep roots in Judaism. This does not add to their authenticity or legitimacy, but it does add to our own understanding of our own faith. To that extent it is good to learn more about the Jewish context behind what we do.

And another benefit is to increase our respect for modern day Judaism, which is always a good thing to do, imo.

 

[MKJ]

Well If they are looking to Jewish roots then they are looking to tradition at least in the Catholic Church sense. Tradition is powerful and living.

I don't know that I would call t Tradition in the Catholic sense - that was rather my point. I do agree that they are looking for some kind of historical roots for their faith - people have been doing that since the reformation. But generally, when the MC's do it, the results aren't great.

You talk about Jewish roots a lot, and I'm not sure if its mainly an academic interest, or something else.

 

[Athanasias]

I don't know that I would call t Tradition in the Catholic sense - that was rather my point. I do agree that they are looking for some kind of historical roots for their faith - people have been doing that since the reformation. But generally, when the MC's do it, the results aren't great.

You talk about Jewish roots a lot, and I'm not sure if its mainly an academic interest, or something else.

Ok I see what you mean. I agree that when MC's do it the results are not great. They seem to be missing so much. For us Catholics we have been making Jewish connections to the faith since the first century when Pope St. Clement of Rome made those connections in the Jewish and Christian hierarchy. So for us its a good development of doctrine. For MC"S yeah it may be different.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't know that I would call t Tradition in the Catholic sense - that was rather my point. I do agree that they are looking for some kind of historical roots for their faith - people have been doing that since the reformation. But generally, when the MC's do it, the results aren't great.

You talk about Jewish roots a lot, and I'm not sure if its mainly an academic interest, or something else.

I don't have a problem with Messianic Christians; I think their path is an honourable one.

Christians don't have to search for a historical root for our faith; it is right there in Scripture, in black and white. There is nothing spurious or facile about this; ours is a faith rooted in Judaism, and Judaism is an ancient faith.

 

[Open Heart]

In Judaism there is NO confession. Please give me the so called chapter and verses from leviticus and numbers where lay confession to priests is commanded.

 

[Athanasias]

In Judaism there is NO confession. Please give me the so called chapter and verses from leviticus and numbers where lay confession to priests is commanded.

Sure it was common for God to use his Holy priesthood in the reconciliation of man even in the old testament as admitted by many authors and theologians not just Dr. Pitre. For example its was a common practice in biblical Judaism to confess certain serious sins before the priest of God and then after your confession is heard by the priest the priest then makes atonement for you. The priest would also have to decide according to the gravity of the sin you confessed whether or not the victim was a sufficient value or not. This is found in Leviticus 5:5-7 and similar people were confessing their sins to God and to the priest and asking God's priest and the people to pray for them for mercy for their sin and make sacrifices in Baruch 1:13 and Numbers 5:6-8. So priest would often make atonement for the sinner before God after confession. God always used his priesthood to reconcile man before him. Dr Hahn talks about this in his book on confession. The New covenant is simply a fulfillment of the Old. We can also find in psalms like 51 a perfect act of contrition. The New covenant synthesizes all these things beautifully in the New covenant priesthood. Hope that helps. You may want to get the cd set or write Dr. Pitre or the Hebrew Catholics Assoc for further discussion on this.


There are many catholic doctrines like the papacy, prayers to dead saints, the role of Mary, indulgences, and purgatory, and of course transubstantiation, that also have deep jewish roots as well.

 

[Open Heart]

This is found in Leviticus 5:5-7 and similar people were confessing their sins to God and to the priest and asking God's priest and the people to pray for them for mercy for their sin and make sacrifices in Baruch 1:13 and Numbers 5:6-8. So priest would often make atonement for the sinner before God after confession.

Thank you for the verses. They were very, very helpful.

 

[Athanasias]

Thank you for the verses. They were very, very helpful.

Your welcome! God bless you!