the Iliad and Maccabees

[Daniel25]

So i've been reading Fagles translation of the Iliad for the first time and its amazing. One of the most unique things I've read in my life, in that particular ancient tempo and tone. I wonder what contemporary author affirmative action'd it off the curricula for modern students? Probably Margaret Atwood.

Anyway, I have also been reading Maccabees in the bible lately, and the I was contrasting the Greeks in the Illiad, with their celebration and exhultation of the will and violence over civilization and domesticity, as compared to the hebrews in the Macabees and their obession with the Law. And I came to the conclusion that the roots of fascism in the west lie in Greek thought and tradition, while the enlightenment lie with the Jews and their law and rule obession. Which is the complete opposite as contemporary culture likes to portray it, with the enlightened Greeks and the violent hebrews.

Anyway, discuss!

 

[Paradoxum]

But then if you compare some bits of the OT with Plato and you might find the Greek more civilised. Athens had a democracy for a while, though the Hebrews only had a theocracy and a monarchy.

I don't think you can base your history on two readings.

 

[Daniel25]

Dear, plato was the original fascist. He wanted to seize children in a creche to indoctrinate them away from any influence of their parents, to heavily censor speech and music (he devotes an entire chapter in the republic to music censorship). He heavily idolized Sparta because although an Athenian, he was a member of the aristocracy and on the deposed end of a recent series of tyrants. He advocated a caste society with a guardian caste and a ruled class.


The Bible after exodus is what I am chiefly thinking of, after the hebrews had gotten the Law. They needed it before they could become obessed with it, haha.

 

[Daniel25]

And the democracy of Athens was an oligarchy of ruling families. About a third of the population were slaves, a third nonvoting resident aliens, and only a third citizens. Epicurus is the person you are looking for, if you are looking for an ancient Greek who seems vaguely modern; but I don't think he was terribly influential except for the perennial Marie Antoinette types, and only then on post-hoc basis.

 

[Paradoxum]

Dear, plato was the original fascist. He wanted to seize children in a creche to indoctrinate them away from any influence of their parents, to heavily censor speech and music (he devotes an entire chapter in the republic to music censorship). He heavily idolized Sparta because although an Athenian, he was a member of the aristocracy and on the deposed end of a recent series of tyrants. He advocated a caste society with a guardian caste and a ruled class.


The Bible after exodus is what I am chiefly thinking of, after the hebrews had gotten the Law. They needed it before they could become obessed with it, haha.

And the democracy of Athens was an oligarchy of ruling families. About a third of the population were slaves, a third nonvoting resident aliens, and only a third citizens. Epicurus is the person you are looking for, if you are looking for an ancient Greek who seems vaguely modern; but I don't think he was terribly influential except for the perennial Marie Antoinette types, and only then on post-hoc basis.

Fair points. No one back then is a role model

Socrates in Plato is pretty cool though.

 

[Daniel25]

Socrates is the speaking one who advocates censorship, indoctrination, caste society, etc in the republic...


I think you'd be surprised by the ancients if you bothered to read them rather than your professors opinions on them.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

So i've been reading Fagles translation of the Iliad for the first time and its amazing. One of the most unique things I've read in my life, in that particular ancient tempo and tone. I wonder what contemporary author affirmative action'd it off the curricula for modern students? Probably Margaret Atwood.

Anyway, I have also been reading Maccabees in the bible lately, and the I was contrasting the Greeks in the Illiad, with their celebration and exhultation of the will and violence over civilization and domesticity, as compared to the hebrews in the Macabees and their obession with the Law. And I came to the conclusion that the roots of fascism in the west lie in Greek thought and tradition, while the enlightenment lie with the Jews and their law and rule obession. Which is the complete opposite as contemporary culture likes to portray it, with the enlightened Greeks and the violent hebrews.

Anyway, discuss!

You thought the Iliad praised violence over civilization and domesticity? I got the opposite impression when I read it.

 

[Paradoxum]

Socrates is the speaking one who advocates censorship, indoctrination, caste society, etc in the republic...

I think you'd be surprised by the ancients if you bothered to read them rather than your professors opinions on them.

I meant this bits I have read, but forgive me if it isn't my number one priority to read ancient philosophy. I'm sure I read more of the classics at some point in life.

My opinions have nothing to do with my professors opinions are. Would hardly be able to tell you what they were.

The Greeks had some good ideas, so did the Hebrews. The Bible (more than NT though) has had a good positive affect on my life.

 

[variant]

Dear, plato was the original fascist. He wanted to seize children in a creche to indoctrinate them away from any influence of their parents, to heavily censor speech and music (he devotes an entire chapter in the republic to music censorship). He heavily idolized Sparta because although an Athenian, he was a member of the aristocracy and on the deposed end of a recent series of tyrants. He advocated a caste society with a guardian caste and a ruled class.

And yet he lived in Athens, the first democracy.

When did Isreal first become a democracy?

Whats that? 2456 years later? To be fair that's a LITTLE less than two and a half eons.

 

[Daniel25]

You thought the Iliad praised violence over civilization and domesticity? I got the opposite impression when I read it.

Thats because moderns sympathesize with the Trojans and Hector. Achilles and the Greeks are the heroes; and their primal hyper-masculine world of the beached boats defeats Hector because they are undivided. Achilles is a killing machine, while Hector is a mighty warrior, but also a statesman and a family man. And he loses for it, and his lose is inevitable.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Thats because moderns sympathesize with the Trojans and Hector. Achilles and the Greeks are the heroes; and their primal hyper-masculine world of the beached boats defeats Hector because they are undivided. Achilles is a killing machine, while Hector is a mighty warrior, but also a statesman and a family man. And he loses for it, and his lose is inevitable.

Hector is as equal a hero as Achilles is in Homer's eyes. The story spends a great deal of time establishing how honorable Hector is, and despite the fact that the story teller is Greek, it is pounded into our heads that there are heroes on both sides. One could argue that the whole time Hector is the true hero, and Achilles is the irrational one. Also, whenever a soldier dies, Trojan or Greek, there is a long bit that describes in detail something about the person. War is shown as a horrific side of human nature that, while it seems an inevitable, is ultimately destructive to all involved. It's so much more complicated than "war is awesome, let's kill Trojans!" or fascism. The Shield of Achilles, arguably the most important symbol in the whole tale, argues that life is a balance between war and peace.

All in all, I think the Iliad is the ultimate of all "war is hell" stories.

If you really want an ancient tale that is completely fascist, read the Aeneid. It is basically the Iliad stripped of its conscience and level ground and is instead injected with nationalism. The Romans are who you are searching for, not the Greeks.

 

[ebia]

Hector is as equal a hero as Achilles is in Homer's eyes. The story spends a great deal of time establishing how honorable Hector is, and despite the fact that the story teller is Greek, it is pounded into our heads that there are heroes on both sides. One could argue that the whole time Hector is the true hero, and Achilles is the irrational one. Also, whenever a soldier dies, Trojan or Greek, there is a long bit that describes in detail something about the person. War is shown as a horrific side of human nature that, while it seems an inevitable, is ultimately destructive to all involved. It's so much more complicated than "war is awesome, let's kill Trojans!" or fascism. The Shield of Achilles, arguably the most important symbol in the whole tale, argues that life is a balance between war and peace.

All in all, I think the Iliad is the ultimate of all "war is hell" stories.

What he said

 

[Daniel25]

Fascism was too, well, contemporary a word for what I was getting at. I'm talking about two generalized approaches to life; the one expressed in the Iliad, where the purpose is to bend the world to your will, striking at the very Gods or even Fate itself to do so. And the one expressed by the hebrew revolters in Macabees, where the purpose to bend one's self to the will of the world (For example, as expressed by the Law and convenant of the LORD).



The Iliad certainly is a rich work, and Hector is supposed to be likable and mighty; but Troy burns- Priam is slaughtered over the altar and Cassandra is raped. Andromache, Hector's wife is sold as a concubine, and his son is thrown from the parapet. The book shows war to be violent and full of ugly death, but also full of unique glory and self-actualization. And there is constant undercurrent of contempt for domesticity. Just opening the book practically at random you get"


Nastes led the Carians wild with barbarous tongues,
men who held Miletus, Phtires' ridges thick with timber,
Maeander's currents and Mount Mycale's craggy peaks.
Ampimachus and Nastes led their formations on,
Nastes strolled to battle decked in gold like a girl,
the fool! None of his trappings kept off grisly death-
down he went, crushed by racing Achilles' hands, destroyed
at the ford where battle-hard Achilles stripped his gold away.
--Book 2, 980

The brutal and hard Greeks are always being compared with the wealthy but softer Trojans. A man reckons his strength by how mighty his enemies be ( ), so they don't overdo it, but its impossible to miss as a theme.

 

[Daniel25]

or

But Menelaus
lord of the war cry had caught Adrestus alive.
Rearing, bolting in terror down the plain
his horses snared themselves in tamarisk branches,
splintered his curved chariot just at the pole's tip
and breaking free they made a dash for the city walls
where battle-teams by the drove stampeded back in panic.
But their master hurled from the chariot, tumbling over the wheel
and pitching facedown in the dust, and above him now
rose Menelaus, his spear's long shadow looming.
Adrestus hugged his knees and begged him, pleading,
"Take me alive, Atrides, take a ransom worth my life!
Treasures are piled up in my rich father's house,
bronze and gold and plenty of well-wrought iron—
father would give you anything, gladly, priceless ransom
if only he learns I'm still alive in Argive ships!"


His pleas were moving the heart in Menelaus,
just at the point of handing him to an aide
to take him back to the fast Achaean ships . . .
when up rushed Agamemnon, blocking his way
and shouting out, "So soft, dear brother, why?
Why such concern for enemies? I suppose you got
such tender loving care at home from the Trojans.
Ah would to god not one of them could escape
his sudden plunging death beneath our hands!
No baby boy still in his mother's belly,
not even he escape—all Ilium blotted out,
no tears for their lives, no markers for their graves!"


And the iron warrior brought his brother round—
rough justice, fitting too.
Menelaus shoved Adrestus back with a fist,
powerful Agamemnon stabbed him in the flank
and back on his side the fighter went, faceup.
The son of Atreus dug a heel in his heaving chest
and wrenched the ash spear out.


Book 6, 44-58

 

[Resha Caner]

But then if you compare some bits of the OT with Plato and you might find the Greek more civilised. Athens had a democracy for a while, though the Hebrews only had a theocracy and a monarchy.

Are you saying democracy = more civilized? (Or other "more's") Hmm.

 

[SolsticeCredo]

No, his point appears to be "might makes right". That the Trojans were good people, but because they lost we shouldn't take anything from their side. The Greeks on the other hand, because they were successful in the assault on Troy, should be idolized and emulated.

At least that's how his posts read from here, no matter how much of a butcher you are, so long an you win you are morally superiour.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Daniel25, you're missing the forest for the trees. The overall theme of the Iliad is not simply a glorification of war or fascism. It's much more complicated than that. While it is an epic story that is obviously pro-Greek (because the author was Greek), it refuses to slander the Trojans and gives their glory near equal time.

I suggest you read it along with some commentary. I missed a lot on my first independent run through it, and when I read it again in college I got a better grasp on it.