The Grace Doctrine?

[Zeal777]

In Christianity i couldn't help but notice that it seems like an every man for himself Religion. One seems so focused on making it to heaven and if you dont make it then.that sucks for you hallelujah.
I noticed this for years and this specific scene i saw in this movie, with Keanu Reeves got me thinking.

It's a scene where in the end the guy forfeits his salvation in order to save another person. I saw this movie years ago and i pondered on a thought for years that I've finally came to a conclusion. That thought was would i sacrifice my salvation or opportunity for heaven for another. Then I thought about loved ones, and people that God has placed on my heart, and my answer is yes, i would forfeit my salvation, to save another. My question for Christians is would you do the same?

 

[Psalm3704]

You got the right idea. For people with that type of mindset, salvation is guaranteed through Christ.

Matthew 16:25
"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

John 15:13
There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends.

 

[com7fy8]

Our Apostle Paul says,

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh," (Romans 9:3)

I understand that Paul means this as a literary expression. But this shows how much he did care about others becoming saved, and not only himself.

Just making a big sacrifice heroic of ourselves is not what really works. We need to grow in Jesus so we can spread through us His grace to other people. God has us be a cup running over to others, not being a lost and empty sacrifice. If ones trust in Jesus and become saved, they need us to be there for them. So, it would not be practical for the really caring person to be cursed away somewhere, when the really loving person can help others to become children of God

Philippians 1:23-24 > Paul also says he would love to die so he can be with Jesus, but he understands that the Christians on this earth needed him here. So, yes he did understand that being saved was not only for himself.

 

[orangeness365]

I think your heart is in the right place, to want to give up your salvation to save another. I know I wouldn't, and I'm ashamed of that. Salvation for one person doesn't mean that the next person can't be saved though. God can and wants to save everyone, as long as they let Him, but some people hate God the father, and to He doesn't force them to be with Him.

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus gave Himself for us, on Calvary, as the sacrifice for our salvation. So, even though it might be good to be willing to sacrifice ourselves in order for someone else to be saved, it is humble to realize how we can not improve on the sacrifice of Jesus But do what God has us do, be sacrificed to loving any and all people.

It could be that I might say I would trade my soul for someone else to be saved. And this might seem very loving and sacrificial, but am I loving enough to stay out of an argument, to not get bitter against someone else? This might take more true strength of loving, than to think inside myself that I would give my soul for another person. Loving people in real life "might" take more real strength of love!

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world" (in Philippians 2:14-16)

So, God wants us to love Him and love people, by not complaining and arguing. These things are anti-love, very deeply degrading. So, this is a sacrifice which God desires, how we are sacrificed to living "without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless" and "without fault" > > > the way God's love in us has us become. It might be fine to think we would give ourselves for others, but it can take much more real and strong love to make us actually succeed at living without complaining and arguing, and becoming how God's love has us become in our nature > blameless, harmless, and with no faults, even > we do have this, as much as God's love has cured our character (1 John 4:17). He says to do this; so this is a realistic expectation > God is realistic to expect this; but He is the One who does this with us; we trust You to so succeed, God, because You are spiritual enough to do this with us.

And we are encouraged that You know we are not perfect; but it is encouraging to discover how You are succeeding in doing this in us, in Your own love's grace which is almighty to work and succeed in us, howsoever You please > Philippians 2:13.

So, this is the sacrifice > to be sacrificed to how Your love changes us and has us able to relate with You, with no complaining, and relate with ones close to us and with anyone, without arguing, but being gentle and humble in love >

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

So, Zeal777, your title says, "The Grace Doctrine?". This is what God's grace does . . . in us. Grace is not only God up on the throne smiling at us and forgiving us. But His grace includes His actual action in us to cure our nature with the effect of His love. And there is only one way that God's love in us can change us to become . . . more and more like Jesus - - more and more blameless, harmless, and without fault > so, this is not only changing our behavior and reforming what things we think, but this is in our nature. So, grace is not distant, but personal in our hearts.

 

[aiki]

In Christianity i couldn't help but notice that it seems like an every man for himself Religion. One seems so focused on making it to heaven and if you dont make it then.that sucks for you hallelujah.
I noticed this for years and this specific scene i saw in this movie, with Keanu Reeves got me thinking.

It's a scene where in the end the guy forfeits his salvation in order to save another person. I saw this movie years ago and i pondered on a thought for years that I've finally came to a conclusion. That thought was would i sacrifice my salvation or opportunity for heaven for another. Then I thought about loved ones, and people that God has placed on my heart, and my answer is yes, i would forfeit my salvation, to save another. My question for Christians is would you do the same?

An "every man for himself religion"? Interesting. The Bible tells us that disciples of Christ - Christians - are to love the people around them sacrificially. The ethos of the faith, then, is not as you describe.

I don't think I would sacrifice for just anyone. I wouldn't, for instance, sacrifice my salvation for Hitler, or a child-rapist, or a serial killer. I wouldn't sacrifice my salvation for someone who didn't really want it, either. Of course, this whole forfeiting salvation scenario is totally unbiblical (it came from Hollywood, after all) and ignores the fact that there has already been a substitute offered for every one of us. And that substitute was perfect. No other sacrifice, therefore, is now required. What's more, none of us could ever be an adequate substitute for anyone else. We are ourselves too corrupt and sin-cursed. The movie you mentioned distracts from all of these facts. It puts the fallible, sinful human person in the place of Christ, which, as far as I'm concerned, is near-blasphemous. I would urge you not to ponder the Christian faith through the lens of the corrupt values and philosophies of Hollywood. I doubt there is anything that will lead you as wrong as quickly or as thoroughly as the garbage coming out of the Hollywood cesspool.

Selah.

 

[029b10]

That thought was would i sacrifice my salvation or opportunity for heaven for another. Then I thought about loved ones, and people that God has placed on my heart, and my answer is yes, i would forfeit my salvation, to save another. My question for Christians is would you do the same?

I presume when you mean save another, that you are referring unto their salvation, in which case
my answer would be that salvation is not ours to lose or give, it is the gift of God.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:9

 

[Mediaeval]

"If, as has been said, there are two systems of religious doctrine in one of which "sin" is the central thought; "terror" the motive power; "personal salvation" the object:--and in the other, "God as revealed in Christ," as the center; "the goodness of God" the motive power; "the restoration of His scattered children to Him" the object,--then I think that the former may be taken to represent much of the popular theology and the latter the Gospel of Christ." Quoted from Frederic Farrar's Mercy and Judgment (1881)

 

[Winken]

In Christianity i couldn't help but notice that it seems like an every man for himself Religion. One seems so focused on making it to heaven and if you dont make it then that sucks for you hallelujah.
I noticed this for years and this specific scene i saw in this movie, with Keanu Reeves got me thinking.

It's a scene where in the end the guy forfeits his salvation in order to save another person. I saw this movie years ago and i pondered on a thought for years that I've finally came to a conclusion. That thought was would i sacrifice my salvation or opportunity for heaven for another. Then I thought about loved ones, and people that God has placed on my heart, and my answer is yes, i would forfeit my salvation, to save another. My question for Christians is would you do the same?

Certainly I would give my life for another. That has zero, zilch, nada to do with forfeiting one's salvation. Heaven is my destination, regardless.

 

[1watchman]

Yes, Winken, the subject was perhaps stated wrong. One might lay down their life to save a person from peril, but that is not about the salvation of the soul God speaks of. It would be foolhardy to reject God's salvation of the soul to go and try to be party to someone who doesn't want anything to do with God. I allow that the OP was not speaking of spiritual/godly salvation???

 

[Zeal777]

Basically what i was implying was of course not sacrificing, yourself for wicked people, but then again, is it not written that Christ died for us though we were sinners?
My statement in sacrificing, my salvation for another, came from what God revealed to me in my heart, such as loved ones whom are lost but do not realize they are lost, the book of proverbs says that there is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end leadeth to destruction, i was speaking as for those whom know not what they are doing, as Jesus stated on the cross father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

 

[Zeal777]

My mother for example, is into freemasonry, she actually believes in what she is involved with is right, but sadly it is not.

 

[FatalHeart]

I have had these same thoughts and I think it does come from Christ as I believe Paul was speaking literally. But you must realize that even if we can do such things, we only want to do what is right, and I think that is why Paul doesn't say that he will. If in heaven, God doesn't want you to trade away your salvation, you must obey, if you truly do have love inside you as His Spirit will only lead you to do what is right, and love does not do anything besides what is right. "Let us do evil that good may result -their condemnation is deserved." Anyway, would I? Sure. Would it suck for me? Sure. But I think in the end it will matter more what I did here than what I do then. The focus is not the end. The end was meant to spark the change now. "All those who have this hope in Him purify themselves just as He is pure." So be careful Satan does not destroy your future with what you might do and end up disheartening you for what you can do now. It would be best to believe God will do what is right by you both and to live in the joy of Him taking care of you. Also, it does say in Romans 1:20, that all men know God, but that some refused to worship Him as such. I believe the soldiers didn't know they were crucifying Christ at that point, but I also believe they had had their chance to be the type of people to have known it. In the end, people will not be surprised, they will cease to have excuses for their self deceptions. "They are like a dream when one awakes; when you arise, Lord, you will despise them as fantasies." The only thing that can change a heart is the grace of God and we must trust Him with the decisions He makes and realize that although things may seem completely evil to us, God is faithful. It is Him we are to hold. It is Him we are to worship. When you gave Him your life, you gave Him it all -your family and your devotion and your heart.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So, you would sacrifice going to heaven for another person? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Winken]

So, you would sacrifice going to heaven for another person? Is that what you are saying?

That would be impossible. The price has already been paid for each Christian.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That would be impossible. The price has already been paid for each Christian.

I know. That's why I was seeking clarification from the OP. Hopefully he will answer.

 

[oi_antz]

My mother for example, is into freemasonry, she actually believes in what she is involved with is right, but sadly it is not.

I think I get what you are describing now, so I'll explain the thoughts I got from this.

Jesus Christ is the perfect resemblance of God's nature: that is all sorts of things like wisdom, grace, love, mercy, kindness, strength, justice, righteousness etc and so on. These are qualities that naturally the human is intended to emanate in the world, so that all of creation will praise God for the wonderful life He gave us. But we know that all people naturally give in to sin, and that destroys these qualities. What we end up with in a world where people aren't gracious, kind, loving and so forth, is that the whole of creation groans and does not rejoice in love to God, for the life He gave us.

These things that destroy our godly nature, are those desires for our self. For an example, when we are envious, or greedy, or lazy or angry.

But, what is true is that nobody can convince another of the gospel of salvation if they are consumed by sin and showing such a spiritual desolation. Only when we are living gracefully, that is to say that no sin in our life is destroying those godly qualities, only then we can actually be a light of truth that shows people the way. Otherwise, when we are helping people to remove a splinter in their eye, they are distracted by the plank in ours, and they will actually not trust us to help.

.. So really, if one wants to help another gain their salvation in Christ, what they must do is sacrifice their own selfish desires - everything about their interest in the present life must become lesser than their interest in doing the right thing. This is consistent with the whole gospel message: if anyone wants to be my disciple, they must take up their cross and follow me. No person can serve two masters, you cannot serve God and mammon. Any person who gives up their home and family for my sake, will be repaid a hundred times over, and will have everlasting life. Offer up your life to God as a sweet smelling sacrifice, because that is what Jesus did for you, and this earned Him favour in God's opinion. If anyone slaps you on the cheek, offer the other to him. If someone takes from you, do not ask for it back, and give to those who ask from you. Do not be anxious, but trust in Him. Do you see those beautiful flowers? Doesn't God really care for the things He loves? Therefore, seek first the matters of God and the coming of His kingdom, and everything you need will be provided. Always rejoice in The Lord. If you remain happy while being persecuted for your good faith, then God will empower you to become a great witness to His glory.

So, it's a real calling that you are describing, to sacrifice for the sake of the salvation of others. But it isn't the next life that we are to sacrifice, it is our self-interests of the present life that we are required to make the lesser. This has real results too, that you can actually see and feel, and it is the only way to actually redeem the world from sin. This is what Jesus has done for us: He has given us the right to be called sons of God, since we are now free from the first covenant's restrictions on our conduct and forgiveness. Now, if we live in good conscience with God, knowing that we are not grieving His spirit, we have confidence that He has accepted us and we become full of life.

 

[Hermit76]

I haven't read all of the responses, but I wonder... What is the point of this question? To elevate yourself? To point out the lack of love in others? Jesus finished the work on the cross. He did so because I cannot provide salvation for anyone else. I can't even save myself. To answer "yes" to your question is a bit self serving, isn't it?

 

[annafullofgrace]

Christ already paid our debt on the cross. You can help teach others about salvation-such as Christ's command of baptize and teach, but you can't trade your salvation to give to someone else. It's a free gift, they just have to take it. But I think for the most part, I get what you are saying. I often worry for loved ones who are so self absorbed and do not have faith. Or they have the wrong idea of what grace is... Sometimes the very best example is how we live and show to others who we are in Christ.

 

[com7fy8]

Sometimes the very best example is how we live and show to others who we are in Christ.

And this requires real correction and real sacrifice. While I was a young Christian, I might be able to say yes God I'll give up my salvation so someone else can be saved. But that could be only a heroic gesture. Submitting to God's correction and forgiving people "can" take more real love and honesty.