The Golden Compass

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RadMan

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Most people will run with the pack. They don't want to be too different so they will take there kids anyway to see the movie. The kids will be the ones to pay. Not the parents. They supposedly will have enough sense not to fall for the tragic storyline. Kids are too impressionable and will pay for the parents permissive attitude. Just think of a child that is on the verge of pondering the wonders of God to find out that He's dead. Would be a terrible shock.
 
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Confess

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Because none of the movies I've seen that were authored/directed/acted spoke of killing God.

I'm frankly quite surprised that you are campaigning in favor of this movie.

ETA: Not to mention the fact that this move is aimed at kids, the books are young adult series.
First off, we need to make a distinction here. This movie does not kill the Triune God. It kills a fictitious god that is first a created angel.
Second: Since it doesn't matter what kind of god they are killing, then you would also be terribly upset if Baal/Allah etc., were killed off as well because that is the same as killing the Triune God?

Lastly, quote me where I am campaigning for this movie. Please keep your accusations to yourself. Like I stated earlier, I am just trying to figure out what makes this movie any different from Harry Potter/Goosebumps and the like.
 
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Confess

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True, a lot of movies are made by atheists, but their intent was never to direct their anti-God and anti-Christian message directly at children. The author of this series has made no bones about his intent.
This is true that the author is this way. And it is true that parents should monitor what their children watch. Because the Simpson's, South Park, Family Guy etc., are all child orientated and speak ill of God as well.

Yet no one is making a case against those series. Interesting.
 
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DaRev

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This is true that the author is this way. And it is true that parents should monitor what their children watch. Because the Simpson's, South Park, Family Guy etc., are all child orientated and speak ill of God as well.

Yet no one is making a case against those series. Interesting.

First, South Park, Family Guy, and that ilk are not directed toward children. They are directed strictly to an adult audience.

Second, those things have indeed been addressed. The reason why the Golden Compass is now being discussed is because if the immediate relevance.

Don't assume that because we don't bring those other things up at every breath that we are condoning them in any way.

If you desire your children to see these types of things, I am assuming that you have the where-with-all to explain the difference to them. Many people do not and it's the children who will be adversely influenced.

If you wish to support this type of stuff with your ticket purchase, that's your own business. We are simply discussing what it is and what is at stake.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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First off, we need to make a distinction here. This movie does not kill the Triune God. It kills a fictitious god that is first a created angel.
Second: Since it doesn't matter what kind of god they are killing, then you would also be terribly upset if Baal/Allah etc., were killed off as well because that is the same as killing the Triune God?

Lastly, quote me where I am campaigning for this movie. Please keep your accusations to yourself. Like I stated earlier, I am just trying to figure out what makes this movie any different from Harry Potter/Goosebumps and the like.

Where in all the Harry Potter books is God killed? Was JK Rowling loudly proclaiming her hate for Christians? The author is anti-Christian. The God that the children (The "new" adam and eve as they're called) kills is the Christian God. Make no mistake about that. I was horrified when I read this series. You think HP got dark? These books started out dark.

You've been told several times here what makes this movie "different".

If this author was touting himself as anti-allah or anti-Muslims, this would've never made it to the screen. No, Christians are the easy pick of Hollywood, unfortunately. And I find it sad that other Christians would actually be willing to support this kind of tripe.
 
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Confess

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It is obvious that some are taking this personal and seem to be getting offended just because I prefer to ask the question "why". If answering the questions make you feel like I am attacking you, then I apologize. I just am not one to follow blindly without first looking deeply into the situation.
 
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Confess

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You don't seem willing to listen to those who have.
Really? How would you know? Have I made a decision on the film? Have I told people that they are wrong? Have I?

Don't assume just because I have questions.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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It is obvious that some are taking this personal and seem to be getting offended just because I prefer to ask the question "why". If answering the questions make you feel like I am attacking you, then I apologize. I just am not one to follow blindly without first looking deeply into the situation.

I don't feel attacked and I'm not taking this personally. I certainly apologize if I gave that impression. I do take my Christianity seriously, though. As I said, if this had been slightly anti-Muslim, it would've never made it to the screen.

I'm a pretty lenient parent when it comes to subject matter like this. I allow my son to read and watch Harry Potter. He reads other fantasy books and magic books. I make sure that I look at the books he is reading, and I generally preview them first and read them. I'm a speed reader, so I can get through a young adult novel in an evening if I really want to. I sit down with him and talk about this stuff.

But even this, this I can't get my head around. As soon as I finished the books I threw them out. I told Jake that they weren't good books and I told him why. Thankfully he has no desire to read about book where they kill God.

I am certainly not saying that anyone who goes to see this movie is bad, or evil or somehow anti-Christian. I'm just not sure how someone who is a Christian could go pay money and see it. I know a few of my colleagues who have seen it as part of a review (they did not pay) and their reactions were mixed, mainly because about half of them had read the books while the other had not. If someone is not familiar with the books, the movie does come across as an entertaining story, full of good - that was the review. For those familiar with the series, they said it was somewhat eerie to see such innocence in the movie when the books convey no such thing.

I'm not slamming the movie so much as the author and the series that it is based on.
 
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DaRev

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Really? How would you know? Have I made a decision on the film? Have I told people that they are wrong? Have I?

Well, in a sense, yes you have. You are arguing that the books and the film are not anti-God when it has been revealed numerous times that they indeed are.
 
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synger

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I have not read Golden Compass (I have it on hold in the library and will be picking it up this weekend) but I was able to get The Subtle Knife, the second in the trilogy.

Don't get me wrong. I love fantasy stories, even poorly-written ones. And this is NOT poorly-written. I love fantasy movies of all stripes, and was seriously considering attending this "just because". Now I probably won't.

This is a typical 'alternate universe' world, in which there is a tyrannical government or institution that the protagonists end up trying to overthrow. In that light, it could be the Harkonens, or Sauron, or the war lord of Arawn, or the Black Thing.

However, my problem with it is that it is not just some new dictatorial, tyrannical overlord or evil institution. It's not just some fantasy religion. It really bears a more-than-passing resemblance to the worst of the medieval Catholic church, and the story plays up many of the most common arguments against religion in general and Christianity in particular.

While the book was very well written, I found little reason to identify with, or even like, the protagonists, especially the girl. I am fine with a well-drawn antihero (Thomas Covenant, anyone?), but she's just a nasty, selfish, brat of a girl in this book.

Be that as it may, my real beef was with how they portray the Magisterium ("the Church") as their evil governmental entity, and the Authority as its god. Yes, it's not our god. There's no love, no sacrifice, nothing but power for power's sake. It is all Law, all the time. No Gospel in sight. But it bears enough resemblance to our history that it makes my teeth ache. And more than that, it is so black-and-white as to be ludicrous. ("Money good. Napster bad!")

So here are some excerpts from the book, that may show the underlying flavor of how the Magisterium is described by Pullman. Remember, it's not an overwhelming theme (most of this book revolves around the girl and the boy becoming traveling companions, getting the Knife, and filling in some background). But it's there. By the third book, the reader should be fully on board with not only how evil the Magisterium is, but the implicit understanding of why it should be destroyed. That's how fantasy overthrows work.
------------------------
When a group of the witches (long-lived humanoids who have nature powers and fly on brooms) speak together, one of them speaks of the war to come. The incident in “Bolvangar” is from the first book (and which will be touched upon in the movie, I suppose), in which the Church is cutting the souls (daemons) from children, so that they may become obedient automatons. The daemons are animal-shaped, and separate from the person. In fact, one of the girl's confusions about the boy in the Subtle Knife is that he is from our world, and his daemon is "inside" him, rather than outside in animal form.



From the description in the book, a person without a daemon is like a zombie – unfeeling, unthinking, and horrific to those who still have their souls intact. Daemons can show the emotion or personality of a person, even if the person himself is good at hiding it. (bold emphasis mine)

“Sisters, let me tell you what is happening, and who it is that we must fight. For there is a war coming. I don’t know who will join with us, but I know whom we must fight. It is the Magesterium, the church. For all its history – and that’s not long by our lives, but it’s many, many of theirs – it’s tried to suppress and control every natural impulse. And when it can’t control them, it cuts them out. Some of you have seen what they did at Bolvangar. And that was horrible, but it is not the only such place, not the only such practice. Sisters, you know only the north; I have traveled in the south lands. There are churches there, believe me, that cut their children too, as the people of Bolvangar did – not in the same way, but just as horribly. They cut their sexual organs, yes, both boys and girls; they cut them with knives so that they shan’t feel. That is what the Church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling. So if a war comes, and the Church is on one side of it, we must be on the other, no matter what strange allies we find ourselves bound to.”
In another section, a traveler is trying to find information about a scientific discovery. The Magesterium controls much of the science in this world. In fact, the girl who crosses into our world expects that the Scholars (scientists) at the University will be members of the Church, because what she calls “theology” in her world is “science” in ours. Anyway, in this scene, the traveler is realizing that the man whose daemon is antagonistic.

“And then Lee saw something else; the Skraeling was wearing a ring with the Church’s symbol engraved on it. Suddenly he realized the reason for the man’s silence. Every philosophical research establishment, so he’d heard, had to include on its staff a representative of the Magisterium, to act as a censor and suppress the news of any heretical discoveries.”
In another section, a different witch is trying to rally her sisters to join the army against the Authority. She speaks of her visit with Lord Asriel, who is gathering the forces to lead against the Authority.

“He showed me that to rebel was right and just, when you considered what the agents of the Authority did in His name… And I thought of the Bolvangar children, and the other terrible mutilations I have seen in our own southlands; and he told me of many more hideous cruelties dealt out in the Authority’s name – of how they capture witches, in some worlds, and burn them alive, sister. Yes, witches like ourselves…”
“He opened my eyes. He showed me things I had never seen, cruelties and horrors all committed in the name of the Authority, all designed to destroy the joys and the truthfulness of life.”
And finally, the boy meets with his father, a great explorer and shaman, at the end of the book. The man is wounded, but realizes that the boy is the wielder of the Subtle Knife which can cut through the veil between the multiple universes. It is the only thing strong enough to hurt the Authority.

“If you’re the bearer of the knife, you have a task that‘s greater than you can imagine. A child… how could they let it happen? Well, so it must be… There is a war coming, boy. The greatest war there ever was. Something like it happened before, and this time the right side must win. We’ve had nothing but lies and propaganda and cruelty and deceit for all the thousands of years of human history. It’s time we started again, but properly this time…”
…

“There are two great powers,’ the man said,” and they’ve been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit.”
 
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Confess

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Well, in a sense, yes you have. You are arguing that the books and the film are not anti-God when it has been revealed numerous times that they indeed are.
The books talk about the Triune God? I was told that it talks about an angel that takes on the job as god.
 
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DailyBlessings

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Most people will run with the pack. They don't want to be too different so they will take there kids anyway to see the movie. The kids will be the ones to pay. Not the parents. They supposedly will have enough sense not to fall for the tragic storyline. Kids are too impressionable and will pay for the parents permissive attitude. Just think of a child that is on the verge of pondering the wonders of God to find out that He's dead. Would be a terrible shock.
The only reason a child would think that as a result of seeing these films is if you told them. I disagree with the decision to market this as a children's film, but theologically even the books themselves would not be offensive, of themselves. I've no doubt as to the author's intentions, but the caricature of God in the Golden Compass bears no meaningful relation to our Lord. He's a bit like Lucifer in that angelocentric mythology, but certainly nothing like Christ. So by telling children that the Authority in the Pullman series is God, you're committing two evils: tacitly accepting the twisted atheist caricature of God as a genuine representation of the faith, and agreeing that Pullman's pen has the power to kill Him.
 
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Confess

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I just found the link DaRev put out. It was kind of interesting in that it the only thing I found similar to the Christian God is that there is an Adam and Eve. This Adam and Eve does not actually kill god (note the small "g"), rather they make him disappear. The movie's god is old, senile and can't remember anything which is nothing like the Triune God.

My issue is that Christians make so much of a fuss over things before actually seeing what the problem is. They talk and talk and blow things out of proportion rather then using wisdom, slowing down and discerning the truth.

I believe that Christians have made a bad witness of their faith with issues like Harry Potter and the like. And it is because of that, I tend to be turned off by what the mob is saying and would rather question what they are seeing/saying rather then just jump on the band-wagon.

What I would hate to see is that this first movie be so toned down that it doesn't represent anything that the Christians are warning about which would only discredit them even further then they already are.

From what the writer says about the book in DaRev's link, there are only mild overtones which are anti-Christian in the first book.

IF they make all 3 movies according to the 3 books and the public enjoys the less defaming movies over more defaming movies then I think that the witness of faith in America would prevail over this atheists' attempt to defame religion.
 
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RadMan

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The only reason a child would think that as a result of seeing these films is if you told them. I disagree with the decision to market this as a children's film, but theologically even the books themselves would not be offensive, of themselves. I've no doubt as to the author's intentions, but the caricature of God in the Golden Compass bears no meaningful relation to our Lord. He's a bit like Lucifer in that angelocentric mythology, but certainly nothing like Christ. So by telling children that the Authority in the Pullman series is God, you're committing two evils: tacitly accepting the twisted atheist caricature of God as a genuine representation of the faith, and agreeing that Pullman's pen has the power to kill Him.
I don't think anyone has said anything about telling kids that the "Authority" is God. Where did you get that at?
 
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DailyBlessings

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I don't think anyone has said anything about telling kids that the "Authority" is God. Where did you get that at?
The "Authority" is the character who dies in the third book- if you're telling kids that God dies in the movie, you are identifying the satanic overlord of the books as the Christian God.
 
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RadMan

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you are identifying the satanic overlord of the books as the Christian God.
You sure like to put words in people's mouth don't you.

That's alright. The kids will get excited about the movie and then read the book. Then what? They'll never figure it out? Kids aren't that dumb.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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The author himself is quoted as saying that God dies at the end of the third book.

And yes, Confess, the movie is VERY watered down. VERY. That's the whole point. It's watered down enough that the hope is that parents will allow their kids to purchase the books.
 
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DailyBlessings

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You sure like to put words in people's mouth don't you.
No, I'm pointing out the problem with saying that God dies in the His Dark Materials series. He doesn't. Because God is not in the His Dark Materials series. If you say that he is, you are tacitly accepting the warped Satanic figure in those books as the Christian God. And he is not.
 
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