The Five Fold Ministries Cannot Function In Our Current Factionalised Church

[bbbbbbb]

Which of our denominations is Christ's own church? That is the question.

That is easy to answer. It is always the denomination of which one is a member. Whether or not an association of churches styles itself as a denomination, or a branch of Christianity, or a non-denominational church, the result is pretty much the same - a group of Christians who share common beliefs which set them apart from other Christians and feeds their innate pride that they (and frequently, they alone) have been especially graced by God with insight into God's deeper truths that other Christians fail to understand.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is easy to answer. It is always the denomination of which one is a member. Whether or not an association of churches styles itself as a denomination, or a branch of Christianity, or a non-denominational church, the result is pretty much the same - a group of Christians who share common beliefs which set them apart from other Christians and feeds their innate pride that they (and frequently, they alone) have been especially graced by God with insight into God's deeper truths that other Christians fail to understand.

Paul treated factions as caused by carnal baby Christians who could take only milk and not strong meat. Only mature believers can have any of the five fold ministries. Paul was clear that novices should not be appointed as elders. People who value their particular denomination over and above Christ, are essentially novices in the faith and therefore unqualified to be elders in the Church or have leadership ministries such as the five fold ministries.

 

[Marilyn C]

Which of our denominations is Christ's own church? That is the question.

None. The Body of Christ is not organized by man but by the Holy Spirit under the Lord`s directions. It is a spiritual body.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

None. The Body of Christ is not organized by man but by the Holy Spirit under the Lord`s directions. It is a spiritual body.

That being so, it doesn't satisfy the question about which visible denomination is 'the one" that God decides to demonstrate His power, at the expense of other denominations. So if one denomination testifies to more signs and wonders than others, wouldn't that cause pride, with that denomination asserting that they are closer to the cutting edge of what is doing than all the others? Do you really think God, who is a not a respecter of persons, would allow that? I don't think so.

 

[Marilyn C]

That being so, it doesn't satisfy the question about which visible denomination is 'the one" that God decides to demonstrate His power, at the expense of other denominations. So if one denomination testifies to more signs and wonders than others, wouldn't that cause pride, with that denomination asserting that they are closer to the cutting edge of what is doing than all the others? Do you really think God, who is a not a respecter of persons, would allow that? I don't think so.

Denominations are NOT the Body of Christ but are of Satan`s World System based on power and control.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Paul treated factions as caused by carnal baby Christians who could take only milk and not strong meat. Only mature believers can have any of the five fold ministries. Paul was clear that novices should not be appointed as elders. People who value their particular denomination over and above Christ, are essentially novices in the faith and therefore unqualified to be elders in the Church or have leadership ministries such as the five fold ministries.

John Nelson Darby put his finger on the problem in the early years of the nineteenth century when he concluded that the church was in ruins without the slightest possibility of recovery or restoration. The situation has only gotten worse in the past two centuries. Thus, it is utter vanity to imagine anything approaching the situation as created through the Apostles in the first century.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Denominations are NOT the Body of Christ but are of Satan`s World System based on power and control.

Let me get this right. You are saying that no one who is a member of a Christian denomination is a true member of the body of Christ, that the only members of the body of Christ never associate with a church but stays at home on the couch watching Youtube videos?

 

[Marilyn C]

Let me get this right. You are saying that no one who is a member of a Christian denomination is a true member of the body of Christ, that the only members of the body of Christ never associate with a church but stays at home on the couch watching Youtube videos?

Now I didn`t say people, just the organizations. And there are more than two alternatives to attending a public meeting run by man. It doesn`t take long to see the `lording it over` by those who place themselves in authority.

Remember the Apostle Paul came as a `nursing mother,` and as `a father`, to the Thessalonians. (1 Thess. 2: 7 & 11) Paul worked with his hands and amongst his specific disciples. (1 Thess. 2: 9) He told his disciple Timothy to start an organization? no! Paul told him to share `the things you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.` (2 Tim. 2: 2)

It is not about who goes to the public meeting or not but who is making disciples.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Now I didn`t say people, just the organizations. And there are more than two alternatives to attending a public meeting run by man. It doesn`t take long to see the `lording it over` by those who place themselves in authority.

Remember the Apostle Paul came as a `nursing mother,` and as `a father`, to the Thessalonians. (1 Thess. 2: 7 & 11) Paul worked with his hands and amongst his specific disciples. (1 Thess. 2: 9) He told his disciple Timothy to start an organization? no! Paul told him to share `the things you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.` (2 Tim. 2: 2)

It is not about who goes to the public meeting or not but who is making disciples.

Attending church meetings is way easier than making disciples. It is hardly any wonder that the world is filled with professing Christians who have never discipled a single person or even shared the gospel one-on-one, but have a perfect attendance record at church.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Now I didn`t say people, just the organizations. And there are more than two alternatives to attending a public meeting run by man. It doesn`t take long to see the `lording it over` by those who place themselves in authority.

Remember the Apostle Paul came as a `nursing mother,` and as `a father`, to the Thessalonians. (1 Thess. 2: 7 & 11) Paul worked with his hands and amongst his specific disciples. (1 Thess. 2: 9) He told his disciple Timothy to start an organization? no! Paul told him to share `the things you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.` (2 Tim. 2: 2)

It is not about who goes to the public meeting or not but who is making disciples.

Saying that churches are run by people "lording it over by those who place themselves in authority" is a generalisation. There are many churches where the minister and elders are humble godly men who are there to serve the people, not lord it over them. We need organised church fellowships to ensure that things are done decently and in order.

Of course there are people who don't like to be told what to do. They want to be laws to themselves and don't want to be in subjection to people more mature and experienced than they are.

 

[Marilyn C]

Saying that churches are run by people "lording it over by those who place themselves in authority" is a generalisation. There are many churches where the minister and elders are humble godly men who are there to serve the people, not lord it over them. We need organised church fellowships to ensure that things are done decently and in order.

Of course there are people who don't like to be told what to do. They want to be laws to themselves and don't want to be in subjection to people more mature and experienced than they are.

I agree, however the system of an organization goes beyond a humble person. The organization is concerned with the balance sheet, paying for the building, the workers, the insurance, and many other things. Sadly, the organization has to bow to the laws of the land that are against God, if they want to keep functioning.

Why did Paul not set up an organization? Is the Holy Spirit incapable of organizing people and relationships? Is the format of the organization so set in concrete that to meet any other way is not valid?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree, however the system of an organization goes beyond a humble person. The organization is concerned with the balance sheet, paying for the building, the workers, the insurance, and many other things. Sadly, the organization has to bow to the laws of the land that are against God, if they want to keep functioning.

Why did Paul not set up an organization? Is the Holy Spirit incapable of organizing people and relationships? Is the format of the organization so set in concrete that to meet any other way is not valid?

It is a case of "rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's, and rending to God what is God's". Jesus paid taxes. Paul did set up organisations, howbeit relatively simple compared to many of today's churches. The Scripture says that he "appointed elders in every city" where he planted churches. In the Jerusalem church deacons were appointed to handle the administrative affairs. When, in the Fourth Century, purpose built church buildings started to be used, then the administrative side became more complex. But when we see the list of spiritual gifts, we see gifts of "helps" plus "administration". Even in a home group meeting, someone has to arrange the seating, pay the power bill, organise the refreshments, etc.

I don't know which "laws of the land" are against God. In my country, there are no laws that prohibit the function of churches or the freedom to worship. The laws concerning building standards, health and safety, how many people a building can hold, recording of accounts and auditing of accounts, are not against God at all.

The Holy Spirit is not some indeterminate mist that somehow does things outside of us. He works through us to achieve the plans and purposes of God. We have to note that the Jewish tabernacle and afterward the Temple were highly organised according to precise Scriptural instructions. When Jesus overturned the tables of the merchants, He was not attacking the organisation of the Temple. He was opposing the dishonest gouging of prices for the animals and birds required for the sacrifice offerings. He saw these merchants, overpricing the people as "thieves". These merchants were not part of the central organisation, but were self employed business men taking advantage of vulnerable people.

 

[Marilyn C]

It is a case of "rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's, and rending to God what is God's". Jesus paid taxes. Paul did set up organisations, howbeit relatively simple compared to many of today's churches. The Scripture says that he "appointed elders in every city" where he planted churches. In the Jerusalem church deacons were appointed to handle the administrative affairs. When, in the Fourth Century, purpose built church buildings started to be used, then the administrative side became more complex. But when we see the list of spiritual gifts, we see gifts of "helps" plus "administration". Even in a home group meeting, someone has to arrange the seating, pay the power bill, organise the refreshments, etc.

I don't know which "laws of the land" are against God. In my country, there are no laws that prohibit the function of churches or the freedom to worship. The laws concerning building standards, health and safety, how many people a building can hold, recording of accounts and auditing of accounts, are not against God at all.

The Holy Spirit is not some indeterminate mist that somehow does things outside of us. He works through us to achieve the plans and purposes of God. We have to note that the Jewish tabernacle and afterward the Temple were highly organised according to precise Scriptural instructions. When Jesus overturned the tables of the merchants, He was not attacking the organisation of the Temple. He was opposing the dishonest gouging of prices for the animals and birds required for the sacrifice offerings. He saw these merchants, overpricing the people as "thieves". These merchants were not part of the central organisation, but were self employed business men taking advantage of vulnerable people.

The early believers worked relationally. We see that in the life of the Apostle Paul. He came as a `nursing mother,` and as `a father`, to the Thessalonians. (1 Thess. 2: 7 & 11) He worked with his hands and amongst his specific disciples. The organization today is not geared that way. The person in charge is not relating to all the people let alone working with his hands. The organization is focused on paying the bills which are huge.

The person in charge is accredited by the organization whereas the early believers were appointed by the Lord. (Gal. 1: 1) The early believers brought to the group something to contribute, whereas in a large public meeting it is only the few at the front who `perform.` (1 Cor. 14: 26)

The Holy Spirit is the one who connects people and helps them in their gifting to contribute to the other believers. Life together is real and up close in everyday life, not in some building where people sit impersonally for a couple of hours.

As to `laws,` there is coming one that says you cannot speak against - eg, Abortion, homosexuality, Lesbians, Trans.. etc. We have to be inclusive, respectful, tolerant etc. The religious organizations have to marry people of same sex, and include them in the organization`s work force and ministry.