The Fascinating World of Eastern Orthodox Old Calendarists

[The Liturgist]

I wish there could be such a Council but hold out little hope that it could happen. Would the Old Calendrists come to such a council?

That’s irrelevant, given the very small numbers of Old Calendarists, and also given their main issue is not the calendar at all but ecumenisk; what is relevant is that all the Orthodox Churches in Jerusalem, Eastern and Oriental, use the Old Calendar, and at least in most years the present arrangement does reduce overcrowding on the Via Dolorosa and in the Holy Sepulchre and other Hagiopolitan pilgrimage sites.

I personally prefer the Julian Calendar, find the Gregorian Calendar a frustrating accomplished fact, and have a liturgical objection to the Revised Julian Calendar, wherein the fixed feasts are set using the Gregorian Calendar but the Pascha is set using the Nicene Paschalion or computus, and is thus aligned to the Julian Calendar, which has the effect of causing in some years the Apostles Fast to end before it begins by reducing the number of Sundays between All Saints Day (the first Sunday after Pentecost on the Byzantine Calendar) and the Feast of the Apostles to a negative number, while causing a huge increase in the number of Sundays between Theophany and Forgiveness Sunday, or to use Western terminology, Epiphany and Quinquagesima.

 

[Leaf473]

For what it's worth, I'm glad this thread was posted in the denomination specific theology section. It gives non-orthodox members a lot more freedom in their responses.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That’s irrelevant, given the very small numbers of Old Calendarists, and also given their main issue is not the calendar at all but ecumenisk; what is relevant is that all the Orthodox Churches in Jerusalem, Eastern and Oriental, use the Old Calendar, and at least in most years the present arrangement does reduce overcrowding on the Via Dolorosa and in the Holy Sepulchre and other Hagiopolitan pilgrimage sites.

I personally prefer the Julian Calendar, find the Gregorian Calendar a frustrating accomplished fact, and have a liturgical objection to the Revised Julian Calendar, wherein the fixed feasts are set using the Gregorian Calendar but the Pascha is set using the Nicene Paschalion or computus, and is thus aligned to the Julian Calendar, which has the effect of causing in some years the Apostles Fast to end before it begins by reducing the number of Sundays between All Saints Day (the first Sunday after Pentecost on the Byzantine Calendar) and the Feast of the Apostles to a negative number, while causing a huge increase in the number of Sundays between Theophany and Forgiveness Sunday, or to use Western terminology, Epiphany and Quinquagesima.

The thing I find a bit odd about the Gregorian is the claim that it gets it wrong with respect to the Jewish calendar once in a while. As in Easter being too early. Is that a problem only after the Jewish calendar was itself corrected with the solar observance? Is that a problem with the current Jewish calendar or the Gregorian? Is there a fix for it?

I guess I see calendars as artificial. I see weeks and days and seasons as givens no matter what a Cesium clock may say. A Cesium clock should be adjusted to actual days. Thus a million years from now sunset to sunset should be a day and Monday should still be Monday. And Spring should be in Spring.

 

[The Liturgist]

The thing I find a bit odd about the Gregorian is the claim that it gets it wrong with respect to the Jewish calendar once in a while. As in Easter being too early. Is that a problem only after the Jewish calendar was itself corrected with the solar observance? Is that a problem with the current Jewish calendar or the Gregorian? Is there a fix for it?

I guess I see calendars as artificial. I see weeks and days and seasons as givens no matter what a Cesium clock may say. A Cesium clock should be adjusted to actual days. Thus a million years from now sunset to sunset should be a day and Monday should still be Monday. And Spring should be in Spring.

Well, calendars are entirely artificial, but for the opposite reason: Monday is Monday and Spring is Spring only in your frame of reference. Accelerate to a greater fraction of the speed of light, or move closer to a large gravitational field, and time will slow down, conversely if you move further away from a gravitational field, time will move faster for you. This is the case on the International Space Station and had to be incorporated into the design of the GPS and related geopositioning satellite constellations.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Part of the Old Calendarist argument is that because this issue was settled by the Council of Nicaea, it would either take another ecumenical council to change it, or it cannot be changed, since any council presuming to change the decisions of the Seven Ecumenical Councils would automatically become a Latrocinium. Many Eastern Orthodox Christians who are members of the canonical churches, or the “World Orthodox” as Old Calendarists call them, also feel this way, which is why either the Julian or the Revised Julian Calendar is in use.

Apparently pope Francis and patriarch Bartholomew are working on a common date for Easter in 2025. Zenit news has a story on it without much detail here: Patriarch of Constantinople: Conversations Are Underway for Catholics and Orthodox to Celebrate Easter on the Same Date - ZENIT - English

It will be the 1700th anniversary of the council of Nicea.

"Patriarch Bartholomew disclosed that specialists in the scientific realm will be consulted to identify the most accurate date for the Easter celebration, given that it’s not about religious considerations but about something that has to do with astronomy, a scientific area of human knowledge."

Will most Orthodox say 'no' to this or what? Sounds like the Old Calendarists are going to say 'no'.

 

[prodromos]

Apparently pope Francis and patriarch Bartholomew are working on a common date for Easter in 2025. Zenit news has a story on it without much detail here: Patriarch of Constantinople: Conversations Are Underway for Catholics and Orthodox to Celebrate Easter on the Same Date - ZENIT - English

It will be the 1700th anniversary of the council of Nicea.

"Patriarch Bartholomew disclosed that specialists in the scientific realm will be consulted to identify the most accurate date for the Easter celebration, given that it’s not about religious considerations but about something that has to do with astronomy, a scientific area of human knowledge."

Will most Orthodox say 'no' to this or what? Sounds like the Old Calendarists are going to say 'no'.

What of the uncanonical actions of Patriarch Bartholomew towards the Ukranian schismatics that has seriously harmed relations between Moscow and Constantinople? Shouldn't those issues be the subject of an Orthodox Council. Shouldn't the Ecumenical Patriarch be seeking reconciliation with his brother bishops first? Would it not be better that Orthodox Christians celebrate ALL feast days together rather than trying to celebrate one feast day on the same day as non-Orthodox? I do not see any value in discussions between HH Bartholomew and Pope Francis when their own houses are in disarray.
We already see clear evidence that God is interested less in astronomical accuracy and more in humble obedience to the prayerful concensus of our bishops in Council. The discussion between HH Bartholomew and Pope Francis seems more politically motivated than by a genuine spirit of reconcilliation which can only come through repentance. It will go the way of the recent attempt by HH Bartholomew to hold an 'ecumenical council'. Nowhere.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thus on Pentecost, Green is the liturgical color (and usually is kept for All Saints Day), and, like Jewish synagogues on the corresponding feast of Shavuot, the church is decorated with greenery.

Of course, the raison d’etre of the Gregorian Calendar was to celebrate Pascha closer to the Vernal Equinox. Old Calendarists argue that they got it too close, and the result is that Pascha and Passover could theoretically overlap, which is a violation of ancient canon laws which were implemented when the Rabbis of the Pharisees, who became the sole surviving Jewish denomination in the 2nd century aside from the Beta Israel in Ethiopia, changed the means of calculation from what is thought to have been observations of the Judaean Barley Crop, when this became problematic as the Jews were driven out of their ancestral homeland following the failed Bar Kochba rebellion, to a fixed calendar system.

.

All the Eastern Orthodox churches I have been in are decorated with greenery on Pentecost. It is, I think, a universally observed tradition. In respect to Pascha, it should be very easy in this day and age to keep it correctly. A full moon is a full moon. Many times on Holy Thursday-Good Friday-Pascha I look up and there is no full moon...which should correspond to nisan 13-14-15/16.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Apparently pope Francis and patriarch Bartholomew are working on a common date for Easter in 2025. Zenit news has a story on it without much detail here: Patriarch of Constantinople: Conversations Are Underway for Catholics and Orthodox to Celebrate Easter on the Same Date - ZENIT - English

It will be the 1700th anniversary of the council of Nicea.

"Patriarch Bartholomew disclosed that specialists in the scientific realm will be consulted to identify the most accurate date for the Easter celebration, given that it’s not about religious considerations but about something that has to do with astronomy, a scientific area of human knowledge."

Will most Orthodox say 'no' to this or what? Sounds like the Old Calendarists are going to say 'no'.

Like I said, in this day and age, it should be simple...a full moon is a full moon and the vernal equinox is the vernal equinox

 

[The Liturgist]

All the Eastern Orthodox churches I have been in are decorated with greenery on Pentecost. It is, I think, a universally observed tradition.

Among Byzantine Rite Eastern Orthodox churches, the decoration with greenery and, if they have them, the use of green vestments and paraments and decoration with greenery, is nearly universal on Pentecost. However, I would be surprised if Western Rite churches, especially those in the Antiochian Church, used a color other than red for their vestments and paraments.

In respect to Pascha, it should be very easy in this day and age to keep it correctly.

Indeed, simply look up the date in an Eastern Orthodox (excluding the Finnish and some Estonian Orthodox who use the Gregorian) or a Coptic or Ethiopian Orthodox calendar, or a calendar from any Eastern church present in Jerusalem, and voila.

 

[The Liturgist]

Apparently pope Francis and patriarch Bartholomew are working on a common date for Easter in 2025. Zenit news has a story on it without much detail here: Patriarch of Constantinople: Conversations Are Underway for Catholics and Orthodox to Celebrate Easter on the Same Date - ZENIT - English

It will be the 1700th anniversary of the council of Nicea.

"Patriarch Bartholomew disclosed that specialists in the scientific realm will be consulted to identify the most accurate date for the Easter celebration, given that it’s not about religious considerations but about something that has to do with astronomy, a scientific area of human knowledge."

Will most Orthodox say 'no' to this or what? Sounds like the Old Calendarists are going to say 'no'.

It has been long established that the Ecumenical Patriarch cannot override an Ecumenical Council, especially the Council of Nicaea, and Patriarchs of Constantinople such as Nestorius have been deposed. My guess is this is merely for the sake of PR, since Patriarch Bartholomew knows that even much of his own church, such as the Athonite Monks, would never go along with that, and of the other Patriarchates and autocephalous churches, at best, he might get support from the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria. In 2015, there were talks between Pope Francis, Patriarch Bartholomew, and Pope Tawadros about celebrating Pascha on the second Sunday of April, and these led to an uproar.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Among Byzantine Rite Eastern Orthodox churches, the decoration with greenery and, if they have them, the use of green vestments and paraments and decoration with greenery, is nearly universal on Pentecost. However, I would be surprised if Western Rite churches, especially those in the Antiochian Church, used a color other than red for their vestments and paraments.



Indeed, simply look up the date in an Eastern Orthodox (excluding the Finnish and some Estonian Orthodox who use the Gregorian) or a Coptic or Ethiopian Orthodox calendar, or a calendar from any Eastern church present in Jerusalem, and voila.

I am not familiar with anything regarding "western rite" churches. I was not referring to any calendar but the phase of the moon and how it is calculated in Torah for Passover. We know He died on the 14th of nisan, was in the tomb over the Sabbath (15th) and rose on the 16th. I mean we all know that the Julian is off many times, all you have to do is look up at the sky and we know when the vernal equinox is...

 

[chevyontheriver]

What of the uncanonical actions of Patriarch Bartholomew towards the Ukranian schismatics that has seriously harmed relations between Moscow and Constantinople? Shouldn't those issues be the subject of an Orthodox Council. Shouldn't the Ecumenical Patriarch be seeking reconciliation with his brother bishops first? Would it not be better that Orthodox Christians celebrate ALL feast days together rather than trying to celebrate one feast day on the same day as non-Orthodox? I do not see any value in discussions between HH Bartholomew and Pope Francis when their own houses are in disarray.
We already see clear evidence that God is interested less in astronomical accuracy and more in humble obedience to the prayerful concensus of our bishops in Council. The discussion between HH Bartholomew and Pope Francis seems more politically motivated than by a genuine spirit of reconcilliation which can only come through repentance. It will go the way of the recent attempt by HH Bartholomew to hold an 'ecumenical council'. Nowhere.

I will take that as a vote for 'no'. As in 'not possible to resolve the date of Easter. Not in my lifetime anyhow. Which is how I expected it to be.

I do agree that the Orthodox have a bevy of issues they need to resolve. One of them seems to be the issue of how they resolve issues.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It has been long established that the Ecumenical Patriarch cannot override an Ecumenical Council, especially the Council of Nicaea, and Patriarchs of Constantinople such as Nestorius have been deposed. My guess is this is merely for the sake of PR, since Patriarch Bartholomew knows that even much of his own church, such as the Athonite Monks, would never go along with that, and of the other Patriarchates and autocephalous churches, at best, he might get support from the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria. In 2015, there were talks between Pope Francis, Patriarch Bartholomew, and Pope Tawadros about celebrating Pascha on the second Sunday of April, and these led to an uproar.

So, basically 'uproar'. The thing Nicea tried to do, and succeeded at for over a thousand years, to get all Christians celebrating Easter in unison, can't be done because there is no mechanism to have a council to make it so we can have Easter on the same date. And Nicea cannot be changed even on a practical matter of scientific observation, because there is no way. No desire for a way either. Calendars!

 

[The Liturgist]

I am not familiar with anything regarding "western rite" churches. I was not referring to any calendar but the phase of the moon and how it is calculated in Torah for Passover. We know He died on the 14th of nisan, was in the tomb over the Sabbath (15th) and rose on the 16th. I mean we all know that the Julian is off many times, all you have to do is look up at the sky and we know when the vernal equinox is...

The Council of Nicaea officially prohibited Quartodecimianism, and implemented the Paschalion.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Like I said, in this day and age, it should be simple...a full moon is a full moon and the vernal equinox is the vernal equinox

Getting people to agree on that is not so simple.

 

[The Liturgist]

So, basically 'uproar'. The thing Nicea tried to do, and succeeded at for over a thousand years, to get all Christians celebrating Easter in unison, can't be done because there is no mechanism to have a council to make it so we can have Easter on the same date. And Nicea cannot be changed even on a practical matter of scientific observation, because there is no way. No desire for a way either. Calendars!

A principle reason for not changing it relates to when certain things happen in the Holy Land. Attempts at changing it have not been successful.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Council of Nicaea officially prohibited Quartodecimianism, and implemented the Paschalion.

That was for a different reason that does not apply today, other than the 14th could be on any day, not always on a Sunday. We actually follow Rome. St John taught Polycarp regarding the 14th. However it was ROME (Anicetus and Victor) that had a problem with it! Polycarp met with Anicetus in 155AD. Most if not ALL the churches in the East (now Orthodox) kept the 14th. Nicea it would seem was a consensus regarding SUNDAY. 1 Corinthians 5:7

Polycrates insisted in his letter to Pope Victor that “we ought to obey God rather than man."
“We observe the exact day (Nisan 14 for Passover), neither adding, nor taking away"
“For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord’s coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints,”
"Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John, who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate. He fell asleep at Ephesus. And Polycarp in Smirna, who was a bishop and martyr; and Thraseas, bishop and martyr from Eumeneia, who fell asleep in Smyrna. Why need I mention the bishop and martyr Sagaris who fell asleep in Laodicea, or the blessed Papirius, or Melito the Eunuch who lived altogether in the Holy Spirit, and who lies in Sardis, awaiting the episcopate from heaven, when he shall rise from the dead?”
"And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven. I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord, and have met with the brethren throughout the world, and have gone through every Holy Scripture, am not affrighted by terrifying words. For those greater than I have said ‘We ought to obey God rather than man’…I could mention the bishops who were present, whom I summoned at your desire; whose names, should I write them, would constitute a great multitude. And they, beholding my littleness, gave their consent to the letter, knowing that I did not bear my gray hairs in vain, but had always governed my life by the Lord Jesus.”

Bishop Victor ex-communicated Polycrates and all the bishops who supported him. However, he reversed his decision later on after several bishops, including Irenaeus, intervened.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Getting people to agree on that is not so simple.

There is nothing to agree on. It is fact, scientific as well as biblical. It depends if people want to or not.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Council of Nicaea officially prohibited Quartodecimianism, and implemented the Paschalion.

Do you agree or disagree with my statements above regarding the full moon and vernal equinox and that the Julian is off many times? It’s supposed to be on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. But many centuries ago, mathematical cycles were devised that predicted when the equinox and full moon would be. They were very accurate, but over time, those predictions drifted away from what was happening in the sky. We’ve never updated our tables. In the 16th century, the West did. The Julian solar calendar is 13 days behind the Gregorian's and its lunar calendar is four to five days behind the Gregorian's.

 

[chevyontheriver]

There is nothing to agree on. It is fact, scientific as well as biblical. It depends if people want to or not.

They don't want to! So they won't. End of story I guess.