The False and the Authentic

[fide]

Are we seeing the counterfeit church arise from within the authentic Catholic Church?

Bp. Fulton Sheen foresaw in the End Times:

“[Satan] will set up a Counter-church, which will be the ape of the Church. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content.... The False Prophet will have a religion without a cross. A religion without a world to come. A religion to destroy religions. There will be a counterfeit Church. Christ’s Church will be one, and the False Prophet will create the other. The false Church will be worldly, ecumenical, and global. It will be a loose federation of churches and religions, forming some type of global association, a world parliament of Churches. It will be emptied of all divine content; it will be the mystical body of the Antichrist. The Mystical Body on earth today will have its Judas Iscariot, and he will be the False Prophet. Satan will recruit him from our bishops.” (Communism and the Conscience of the West, Fulton Sheen (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1948), 24–25.)

Bp. Athanasius Schneider sees in the Church today, “an eclipse” of the supernatural and an embrace of the natural - a new “center” not defined by the divine Presence, but by man: his works, his opinions, his self-idolatry, his self-created morality, his abandonment of God: a counterfeit church.

The Modernist movement, which has been present in the Church since the nineteenth century, used the Second Vatican Council as a catalyst for expansion. Thus, after the Council, the Church became immersed in a deep crisis marked by naturalism. It seems that, to a certain degree, there has been a victory of the natural over the supernatural in so many aspects of the life of the Church. However, it is only an apparent victory, since the Church cannot be overcome by the powers of Hell.

But temporarily, we are witnessing an eclipse, an obfuscation of the supernatural, of the primacy of God, of eternity, of the primacy of grace, of prayer, of sacredness, and of adoration. All these signs of the supernatural have been extremely diminished in the pastoral life and liturgy of the Church in our days. On a global scale, the deepest crisis in the Church is the weakening of the supernatural. This is manifested in an inversion of order, so that nature, temporal affairs, and man gain supremacy over Christ, over the supernatural, over prayer, over grace, and so on. This is our problem. As Jesus Christ said, “Without Me, you can do nothing” (Jn 15:5). The whole crisis in the Church, as seen after the Council, was manifest in an incredible inflation of frenetic human activity to fill the void or the vacuum of prayer and adoration, to fill the void created through the abandonment of the supernatural.
(Schneider, Bishop Athanasius; Montagna, Diane. Christus Vincit: Christ’s Triumph Over the Darkness of the Age (p. 112). Angelico Press. Kindle Edition.)

In the final acts of the Jesus Who came to divide the wheat from the weeds, visible will be on the right those gathered into God, on the left those who have rejected Him. Holy Father, pour out your transforming grace, to make the holy more holy, to bring forth conversion, repentance and restoration to the Judases among us and apart from us. Let us pray for a Great Sanctification! And a Great Conversion! Come Lord Jesus! Father, Thy Kingdom come!

 

[mourningdove~]

Bishop Fulton Sheen was a prophet.
And I believe his prophesy about the End Times is 'spot on'.

Bishop Schneider speaks of ....
- naturalism
- signs of the supernatural have been extremely diminished
- the weakening of the supernatural
- frenetic human activity to fill the void or the vacuum of prayer and adoration, to fill the void created through the abandonment of the supernatural

Are those not all things many of us are now seeing?

Personally, it greatly concerns me, the diminishing emphasis on the supernatural.
How are we to live holy lives in Christ, without doing so supernaturally ... in the power of the Holy Spirit?
I do not believe it can be done, in the flesh alone.

"Come, Lord Jesus, come."

 

[fide]

Bishop Fulton Sheen was a prophet.
And I believe his prophesy about the End Times is 'spot on'.

Bishop Schneider speaks of ....
- naturalism
- signs of the supernatural have been extremely diminished
- the weakening of the supernatural
- frenetic human activity to fill the void or the vacuum of prayer and adoration, to fill the void created through the abandonment of the supernatural

Are those not all things many of us are now seeing?

Personally, it greatly concerns me, the diminishing emphasis on the supernatural.
How are we to live holy lives in Christ, without doing so supernaturally ... in the power of the Holy Spirit?
I do not believe it can be done, in the flesh alone.

"Come, Lord Jesus, come."

Yes, true, personal communion with and in God is not possible on the natural level. We can know some things "about" God by natural observations and reasonings, but we can know Him only in a supernatural spiritual way. We can only know Him in His spiritual Gift of Self within us, and that is above and beyond our natural created being.
I believe that there is a radical difference - between professing Christians truly living and experiencing the supernatural dimension of reality, and those professing Christians who use the words "faith", "hope", "charity", "heaven", "new life in Christ", "walking in the Spirit", and so on, but understand them inadequately, in natural terms though the terms themselves refer to supernatural realities. The words are part of the religious culture, spoken and heard, but taken for granted. But. But are they really understood?
Example - praying the Our Father. If we understood that prayer in the supernatural and divine Truth the prayer proclaims, could we ever rattle off the words as quickly as so many do? So many blurt out the words so fast that no one could possibly be considering them, and understanding them as the words deserve, having the intention to live what they proclaim -- the Holy Truth from God that He intends for us.

Bishop Schneider is exactly right - abandonment of the supernatural is THE problem of the Church of today.

 

[mourningdove~]

Are we seeing the counterfeit church arise from within the authentic Catholic Church?

If I may ask, what do you think?

Confession: I am very 'end times' minded. My late husband and I discussed end time events almost as routinely as we took breaths.
But you are well established in the Catholic faith., know the history of the Church. What are you currently seeing?
I imagine since you posted Bishop Sheen's prophecy that you are also seeing some confirmation of it?

 

[fide]

If I may ask, what do you think?

Confession: I am very 'end times' minded. My late husband and I discussed end time events almost as routinely as we took breaths.
But you are well established in the Catholic faith., know the history of the Church. What are you currently seeing?
I imagine since you posted Bishop Sheen's prophecy that you are also seeing some confirmation of it?

I believe that, at least, I am seeing "the last days" begin. It seems all very, very close. But the Lord has not made anything beyond that clear to me. We could be one pope away from it, with PF setting it all up for the final betrayal, or maybe PF is the final one, the false prophet of Revelation. Only God knows long Francis will have on the Seat, and only God knows what may happen in the faithful Church in the meantime. I believe that there could be a stunning awakening among Catholics - and through them, the world - by holy grace - an awakening in response to the travesty and betrayal of the current Vatican, and the evil madness arising around the world. Sometimes prophesies of judgment can be overturned by appeal, with true repentance and conversion from the evil lived in the past.

I see great, great potential in the Church, still, for truly astounding renewal and revival.

Jonah 3:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying,
Jon 3:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and proclaim to it the message that I tell you."
Jon 3:3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD......
Jon 3:4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he cried, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
Jon 3:5 And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 Then tidings reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, and covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he made proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; let them not feed, or drink water,
Jon 3:8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them cry mightily to God; yea, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence which is in his hands.
Jon 3:9 Who knows, God may yet repent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we perish not?"
Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.

 

[mourningdove~]

When God shows us some things, I have learned to ask myself:
"Why has God shown us this? What is to be our response? What is to be my own personal response to what we are seeing?"

Sometimes God does show us some things to bring us understanding and comfort.
But other times, I do think what He shows us is meant to be a 'call to action'.
A response is expected of us.

There are many ways we can respond, depending on time, talents, abilities, etc.
But for some of us, I believe the response He desires of us is 'to pray'.

 

[fide]

When God shows us some things, I have learned to ask myself:
"Why has God shown us this? What is to be our response? What is to be my own personal response to what we are seeing?"

Sometimes God does show us some things to bring us understanding and comfort.
But other times, I do think what He shows us is meant to be a 'call to action'.
A response is expected of us.

There are many ways we can respond, depending on time, talents, abilities, etc.
But for some of us, I believe the response He desires of us is 'to pray'.

Well said. I would expand your comment to say that - since "prayer is nothing other than union with God" (St. John Vianney) - God calls us all into a deeper, holier, more pure union with Him. Whether fidelity in an outward ministry, or fidelity in holy prayer, God calls us to holiness. We are to be light - whether seen or unseen and secret - in this darkening darkness.

 

[mourningdove~]

Whether fidelity in an outward ministry, or fidelity in holy prayer, God calls us to holiness.

I have a question about holiness, as it relates to holiness in an outward ministry.
I don't want to take this thread off topic, but I also didn't want to start a separate thread about this sensitive issue.

You opened this thread mentioning Bishops Sheen and Schneider.

Fulton Sheen spoke, wrote, about the many hours he regularly spent in Adoration. And we saw and heard God working thru him.

Listening to Bishop Schneider speak recently, I suspect he spends much time in prayer also. I found myself 'hanging onto' every word Bishop Schneider spoke. As Protestants would say, I sensed an 'anointing' on him that day ... a holiness ... which I discerned as the Presence of the Holy Spirit.

But we have other very visible leaders that do not seem to present that same kind of 'anointing' (holiness) when they speak or write or in the things that they say or do while in a ministry capacity. Many of these leaders are talking openly now about very sinful things, as if to be accepting and maybe even encouraging them. And then, of course, we have the issue of hom*sexual priests struggling to refrain from sin, and the ped* priest scandal. This is where the subject of holiness in the Church gets confusing to me ...

All those persons I've mentioned consecrate the host at every Mass they participate in. That is what we are told. (Right?)
So how is it that unholy behaving ministers can validly consecrate the host?

Note: I'm not confusing piety with holiness. I do know the difference.
But when there appears to be a genuine lack of holiness in a minister, I'm just wondering about the validity and efficaciousness of their ministry?

 

[fide]

I have a question about holiness, as it relates to holiness in an outward ministry.
I don't want to take this thread off topic, but I also didn't want to start a separate thread about this sensitive issue.

You opened this thread mentioning Bishops Sheen and Schneider.

Fulton Sheen spoke, wrote, about the many hours he regularly spent in Adoration. And we saw and heard God working thru him.

Listening to Bishop Schneider speak recently, I suspect he spends much time in prayer also. I found myself 'hanging onto' every word Bishop Schneider spoke. As Protestants would say, I sensed an 'anointing' on him that day ... a holiness ... which I discerned as the Presence of the Holy Spirit.

But we have other very visible leaders that do not seem to present that same kind of 'anointing' (holiness) when they speak or write or in the things that they say or do while in a ministry capacity. Many of these leaders are talking openly now about very sinful things, as if to be accepting and maybe even encouraging them. And then, of course, we have the issue of hom*sexual priests struggling to refrain from sin, and the ped* priest scandal. This is where the subject of holiness in the Church gets confusing to me ...

All those persons I've mentioned consecrate the host at every Mass they participate in. That is what we are told. (Right?)
So how is it that unholy behaving ministers can validly consecrate the host?

Note: I'm not confusing piety with holiness. I do know the difference.
But when there appears to be a genuine lack of holiness in a minister, I'm just wondering about the validity and efficaciousness of their ministry?

You ask a question that the Church has a ready answer for - yes, the sacraments are valid as long as the validly ordained cleric does what the Church does, intends what the Church intends, in the celebration. The Church was given the authority; the cleric stands as the Church, in the person of Christ Himself. {note: I'm writing this from memory which may be defective - please "look it up" to be precise about the canon law on this matter. I stand ready to be corrected if this is in error and is incomplete}

An EWTN Q&A has this:

Normally, to celebrate Mass or receive Communion while in a state of mortal sin would be to commit a sacrilege. Yet, the sacrament would be valid; that is, there would be a true consecration and a true sacrifice.
The reason is: Christ is the principal actor of the sacraments, so they are efficacious even when performed by an unworthy minister. As St. Thomas Aquinas says: Christ may act even through a minister who is spiritually dead.

I agree with you - it is hard to justify something that appears to be so false! Holy fruit coming from filthy hands and filthy hearts! My own sense of this is the following: when innocent, humble, faithful souls receive Holy Eucharist in the Mass, in a Catholic Church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ, believing and trusting whole-heartedly in His Word that this IS His very Self, given in love - He is THERE. He will not abandon them; He is saving them.

That said, let me also say from this passage, there is a time to flee from the "abomination of desolation" (in one translation), in the RSV:

Mt 24:15 "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mt 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;

That is, there will be a time of a blasphemy, an abomination, a sacrilege "standing in the Holy Place" so horrific that the Holy Place is left desolate, abandoned, empty, destroyed. At that time, those in Judea (the people of the faithful) - in the Holy City Jerusalem - must flee.

How will we know that time? How horrible will the blasphemy become?? We must rest in faith, in peace. He will not abandon us, at the time. Outwardly, perhaps, but not within. Within He is resting, and so we are at peace.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I'm not sure if you're referring to the Chinese government catholic church not under the Pope but imitates the bells and whistles.
Also the church was created because the government of China wanted monetary success.

 

[fide]

I'm not sure if you're referring to the Chinese government catholic church not under the Pope but imitates the bells and whistles.
Also the church was created because the government of China wanted monetary success.

Well, man apart from God seeks money and power: he wants to please himself, glorify himself, satiate himself in all ways, and a way to do that is to abuse and subjugate others to advance his own ambitions: power and money. Self-idolatry (the rulers) plus enslavement of others (the ruled).

I don't know the details of the Communist Catholic Church: are the priests validly ordained? I don't know.

 

[mourningdove~]

You ask a question that the Church has a ready answer for - yes, the sacraments are valid as long as the validly ordained cleric does what the Church does, intends what the Church intends, in the celebration. The Church was given the authority; the cleric stands as the Church, in the person of Christ Himself. {note: I'm writing this from memory which may be defective - please "look it up" to be precise about the canon law on this matter. I stand ready to be corrected if this is in error and is incomplete}

An EWTN Q&A has this:


I agree with you - it is hard to justify something that appears to be so false! Holy fruit coming from filthy hands and filthy hearts! My own sense of this is the following: when innocent, humble, faithful souls receive Holy Eucharist in the Mass, in a Catholic Church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ, believing and trusting whole-heartedly in His Word that this IS His very Self, given in love - He is THERE. He will not abandon them; He is saving them.

That said, let me also say from this passage, there is a time to flee from the "abomination of desolation" (in one translation), in the RSV:

That is, there will be a time of a blasphemy, an abomination, a sacrilege "standing in the Holy Place" so horrific that the Holy Place is left desolate, abandoned, empty, destroyed. At that time, those in Judea (the people of the faithful) - in the Holy City Jerusalem - must flee.

How will we know that time? How horrible will the blasphemy become?? We must rest in faith, in peace. He will not abandon us, at the time. Outwardly, perhaps, but not within. Within He is resting, and so we are at peace.

Thank you!
And the information from EWTN answered by question, and more.

We are living in perilous times.
Those who trust in God will find shelter under His wings ...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well, man apart from God seeks money and power: he wants to please himself, glorify himself, satiate himself in all ways, and a way to do that is to abuse and subjugate others to advance his own ambitions: power and money. Self-idolatry (the rulers) plus enslavement of others (the ruled).

I don't know the details of the Communist Catholic Church: are the priests validly ordained? I don't know.

Report: Vatican not mentioned in China’s new rules on bishop appointments

According to new rules which will reportedly take effect on May 1, China’s state-run Catholic Church and bishops’ conference will select, approve, and ordain episcopal candidates—with no mention of the Vatican’s involvement in the process.

www.catholicnewsagency.com

There is also an underground Catholic Church under the Pope.