The Ethical Dilemma

[sago]

In a bible study tonight we talked about Abram being willing to sacrifice Isaac. The question in the bible study asked, do you want to have faith like Abram.

Obviously the 'right' answer is yes. But I and several others had to (being honest) say no.

I don't want to have the faith that meant I got straight up the next morning, packaged by beloved only son (I do have one of them) into my cart to set off to burn him as a sacrifice to God.

In fact, if God asked me to do such a thing, even if I was convinced in my sould that he wanted me to. I would say no. For God to ask such a thing of me would leave me in utter contempt of him. I would not and could not justify serving such a God.

This wasn't just my feeling. Are those that agree showing a moral superiority and independence to Abram's God? When God acts in a way that any reasonable person would call Evil, what is going on?

EDIT: Doh, like an idiot newb, I missed the subforum on ethics. Can some administrator move this thread in there. Sorry.

 

[Solidlyhere]

Stupid Bible Studies 101.

It cracks me up with the ignorance of many Bible Study teachers.
They yank out some Old Testament story, and say we should ALL be like that Saint.

Or, they point to John the Baptist, and claim that EVERY Christian should be like him.
Yawn.

So, OP, for you it would be better to "skip" your Study.
There's no use in weakening your Faith, by listening to someone who obviously insults your intelligence.

It would be nice if Bible Study teachers would get REAL.
But, what can you expect from people who volunteer their time?
Answer: You get what they have to offer.

I try to take ALL Bible Study time with a grain of Salt.
I take what I like, and Let Go of the rest.

If you hear something that doesn't edify your Faith, then just assume that it's NOT for you.
Let Go.
It's very simple.

 

[zeke37]

In a bible study tonight we talked about Abram being willing to sacrifice Isaac. The question in the bible study asked, do you want to have faith like Abram.

Obviously the 'right' answer is yes. But I and several others had to (being honest) say no.

I don't want to have the faith that meant I got straight up the next morning, packaged by beloved only son (I do have one of them) into my cart to set off to burn him as a sacrifice to God.

In fact, if God asked me to do such a thing, even if I was convinced in my sould that he wanted me to. I would say no. For God to ask such a thing of me would leave me in utter contempt of him. I would not and could not justify serving such a God.

This wasn't just my feeling. Are those that agree showing a moral superiority and independence to Abram's God? When God acts in a way that any reasonable person would call Evil, what is going on?

EDIT: Doh, like an idiot newb, I missed the subforum on ethics. Can some administrator move this thread in there. Sorry.

Hello newbie....welcome

before they move it, I'll chime in


Abram (Abraham) was aware of God's promise to him and who that promise was going to come through....Issac...not Ismael, nor any other child.


And since Abram trusted God 100%, he did as God Commanded....knowing full well that the seed would be through Issac...knowing that the multitude of children would come through Issac....knowing that he was the promised continuation of Abraham's blessings to be the father of many/multitude/sands of the seashore...........


Abram(Abraham) already fully knew this and trusted God for that to happen....

So when God told him to sacrifice, he was willing to do so.....perhaps he thought it was a test, perhaps he thought Issac would resurrect, perhaps he thought that Issac was the Messiah to come (the promised seed of the woman Gen3) that was written (and remembered)in the star signs of the day....before Moses scribed the scriptures. Many possibilities

but regardless, Abram knew that the promise would be through this child, not another. This not only shows faith but obedience.....and trust....


so, ya I wish that I had that faith.......I only have one son as well....and I would not sacrifice him....because I know/trust/read/understand/agree that God would not, will not, won't ...ask anyone to do that...ever again...even in a test...


and if anyone thinks that God would ask such a thing or that God has asked them to do such a thing.....then it is an evil entity that is pretending to be God.....and not God.

Our Father already gave up His Son...and Abram's(Abraham's) situation was a type for God's sacrifice of Christ.





hope that helps....as I had the same questions at one time.


in His service
c

 

[Yesha]

Good answer, zeke37. Having faith like Abraham does not mean that you want the same incident to happen to you. The intent of the question was whether you would have the complete faith and trust in God as Abraham did.

 

[racer]

Do I wish I had the faith of Abraham? Yes. But, Do I have the faith of Abraham? I'm afraid that I don't. If God asked me today to sacrifice one of my precious children to Him, I just do not believe that I have the faith or strength to do so. Does that make me abhor God? No. Because as Christians we all know that when we leave this physical life, we go to a much better place. So, if I could find a way to sacrifice my child to God (if He asked me to do so) where I could do it without causing pain or striking fear into him or her, it wouldn't be such a bad thing--for the child.

What we fear as humans is the pain we will feel when someone that we love so dearly is no longer with us. He/she is in a better place, but are absent from us physically. Not speaking directly to the OP, but someone has pointed out to me in my earlier days as a parent, we think our love for our children is sacrificial and dedicated solely to them; we think that we do without things for ourselves so that our children can have things; no matter how we look at it, a parents love is a selfish love.

 

[dies-l]

In a bible study tonight we talked about Abram being willing to sacrifice Isaac. The question in the bible study asked, do you want to have faith like Abram.

Obviously the 'right' answer is yes. But I and several others had to (being honest) say no.

I don't want to have the faith that meant I got straight up the next morning, packaged by beloved only son (I do have one of them) into my cart to set off to burn him as a sacrifice to God.

In fact, if God asked me to do such a thing, even if I was convinced in my sould that he wanted me to. I would say no. For God to ask such a thing of me would leave me in utter contempt of him. I would not and could not justify serving such a God.

This wasn't just my feeling. Are those that agree showing a moral superiority and independence to Abram's God? When God acts in a way that any reasonable person would call Evil, what is going on?

EDIT: Doh, like an idiot newb, I missed the subforum on ethics. Can some administrator move this thread in there. Sorry.

I believe that God wants us to be ready and willing to sacrifice even the most important things in our lives for Him. I think that this is one of the themes in the story of Abram and Isaac. Perhaps the reason that God put Abram to this test was to see if Abram was willing to completely trust God, even to the extent of giving up his son through which God had promised to make him the father of many nations. Perhaps God did not want His people to be descendants of someone who did not completely trust God. I don't know.

I do believe, however, that the story has implications for us today. Despite what one poster has said, I believe we should strive to have faith like Abraham, but most of us don't. We should be willing to sacrifice the things in life that we value most, for the service of God. A couple of examples come to mind: First, there is a woman in our church, who for the first time in her life, is going through major financial struggles. She has been unemployed for quite some time and is in the process of losing her home. A few months ago, she came into church and said that God had laid it on her heart to give the money that she had cashed out of her 401-k (i.e., the money that she was planning to live on) to the church. Our pastor tried to refuse the donation, but the woman would not give in. To me, that is an example of the faith of Abraham; even though it makes no financial sense, she is convinced that God will take care of her through her situation, even without her financial safety net.

Another example that comes to mind is a situation that my wife and I are going through right now. I am contemplating the reality that I may have to leave our state in order to find a job in my field. God has placed my wife in a ministry position in our church, and the though to of leaving breaks her heart. Right now, it is a struggle for us to understand why God would ask her to sacrifice something that means so much to her and that God has been using to allow her to use her talents to serve God. Just like in Abraham's situation, it makes so sense to us right now. I don't know what is going to happen, whether our faith will stand up to the test, but I can't help but feeling in a much smaller way, that this is a similar test to Abraham's.

I offer these examples to say that the point of the story is not so much about being willing to kill your own son. The point, imo, is about being willing to let go of that which you value most for the greater glory of God. I believe that God desires that we are always willing to let go of such things. And, from time to time, through our circumstances, he will ask us to. What we do in those situations reveals a lot about where our faith is.

 

[Ave Maria]

In a bible study tonight we talked about Abram being willing to sacrifice Isaac. The question in the bible study asked, do you want to have faith like Abram.

Obviously the 'right' answer is yes. But I and several others had to (being honest) say no.

I don't want to have the faith that meant I got straight up the next morning, packaged by beloved only son (I do have one of them) into my cart to set off to burn him as a sacrifice to God.

In fact, if God asked me to do such a thing, even if I was convinced in my sould that he wanted me to. I would say no. For God to ask such a thing of me would leave me in utter contempt of him. I would not and could not justify serving such a God.

This wasn't just my feeling. Are those that agree showing a moral superiority and independence to Abram's God? When God acts in a way that any reasonable person would call Evil, what is going on?

EDIT: Doh, like an idiot newb, I missed the subforum on ethics. Can some administrator move this thread in there. Sorry.

I would feel the same way to a certain extent. Only difference is, I wouldn't end up hating God over it.

 

[sago]

Interesting comments and feedback, thanks all. I'm sorry if the OP suggested it was a faith-stuggle or an over-simplified-bible-study problem for me. It isn't.

I think my point is this: our reaction to Abram shows there are ethical standards that we hold that are somewhat independent of God's reported actions. I'm talking about God's action, not Abram's, here.

I can't imagine any situation that would be anything but repulsive and evil for a leader to ask one of their followers to kill their child as a test of loyalty. Even if the asker had no intention of letting them go through with it. There have been plenty of historical cases of this happening, of course, with and without a last minute reprieve. Nobody who's morality I respect would claim these are anything but evil acts by insecure leaders.

Yet, we presumably wouldn't want to say God acted evilly in this case. We wouldn't want to hold God to the same ethical standards we hold a human being.

Kierkegaard, famously, called this the teleological suspension of the ethical. God has the right to suspend normal morality in order to get the result he wants.

I guess the question is, if God can act immorally for a (possibly unseen, future) purpose, and is unique in having the right to do so, how does that leave God as a role-model for our morality?


@PansyLad - It isn't that easy to dismiss. I understood the point of the question. But do you really want to say that you crave the level of faith where you would willingly carry out an atrocity if you were utterly convinced God asked you to? I find that kind of faith repulsive, and not desirable at all.

 

[Joykins]

Did God test Abraham or did Abraham call God's bluff?

Seems like there was a little bit of both going on.

 

[billwald]

Rabbinical Judaism has concluded that the incident, called The Akeda, was Abraham's great failure. He should have known that human sacrifice was prohibited. He argued for the Sodomites but he didn't argue for Isaac. Isaac never again spoke to his father.

 

[Floatingaxe]

God wants us to have the same faith as Abraham! What did his faith cause him to believe? That God would make a way for Isaac to live. Abraham trusted God for Isaac as the son who was promised!

Abraham had no reason to doubt God. Why? BECAUSE HE KNEW GOD! I want to be exactly like Abraham when it comes to faith. God's promises are solid and true. We need that kind of faith! We need to know God intimately like abraham did.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Rabbinical Judaism has concluded that the incident, called The Akeda, was Abraham's great failure. He should have known that human sacrifice was prohibited. He argued for the Sodomites but he didn't argue for Isaac. Isaac never again spoke to his father.

Where is that in Scripture? I don't believe that for a minute. That is mere folklore regarding Isaac.

 

[dies-l]

God wants us to have the same faith as Abraham! What did his faith cause him to believe? That God would make a way for Isaac to live. Abraham trusted God for Isaac as the son who was promised!

Abraham had no reason to doubt God. Why? BECAUSE HE KNEW GOD! I want to be exactly like Abraham when it comes to faith. God's promises are solid and true. We need that kind of faith! We need to know God intimately like abraham did.

This raises some questions about the nature of faith. We agree that Abraham was a model of what strong faith looks like. But, was Abraham's faith exhibited that He trusted that God would provide a way out of the situation (which is not always how God works)? Was it that he trusted that, even if Isaac had died, that God would still make Him the father of many nations? Or, was his faith exhibited in that he was so devoted to God that he was willing to forsake the one thing he valued most (the ability to have a long line of descendants through his wife Sarah)? Or the real question, in our own lives, do exhibit faith by simply believing and trusting that God will always take care of us in an agreeable way? Or is faith found in devotion to God, even to the extent of letting go of everything that is important to us, even when we cannot sense the presence of God?

Just some questions. I would be interested in people's thoughts.

 

[sago]

Understanding Abram is a side-show for me.

The big question is: if you were convinced God was commanding you to do something that you would otherwise consider vile and evil, would you do it?

Is that kind of faith desirable?

@billwald - This is one of Kierkegaard's scenarios in Fear and Trembling - didn't know it was rabbinical in origin.

 

[Yesha]

@PansyLad - It isn't that easy to dismiss. I understood the point of the question. But do you really want to say that you crave the level of faith where you would willingly carry out an atrocity if you were utterly convinced God asked you to? I find that kind of faith repulsive, and not desirable at all.

sago, I think comparing Christianity to Old Testament Judaism causes misunderstanding. I think you know as well as I that God's actions were much more different than they are today. I also don't think you believe that God would ever have you do something like that in the present, so it would be wise to draw out the more meaningful parallels. Faith like Abram is what is key here, not desire to "carry out an atrocity if you were utterly convinced God asked you to". Asking that sort of question is like asking "could God create a rock that he can't lift?" It's completely irrelevant because it wouldn't happen, and thinking about it too much can draw you off the path.

Remember that God promised Abram that his seed would go through Isaac. Abram's trust was that God would carry forth his promise no matter how daunting the obstacles seemed to be. I think that is a much better moral to dwell on. That is, having faith that God will keep his promises despite the improbability that seems to be.

 

[Floatingaxe]

If I discerned the voice of my Father telling me to do something that seemed off to me, I would ask Him to confirm it. Once He does that, I am good to go. God never asks us to do ANYTHING that would bring us harm. It is always for good.

This is about trust. When you know His voice and trust Him, He will lead you into exciting things.

In Abraham's case, he trusted God fully. He knew that Isaac was the son of promise, and that God would provide a way out. That's the kind of trust God wants in each of us. He is worth it.

 

[Polycarp1]

Okay, let's try something slightly more realistic.

Your next door neighbor is a religious nut. I don't care what context you put on those words -- to you, who you are and what you believe, he's somebody you'd describe as "a religious nut." He has an absolutely adorable 8-year-old boy, the kind of kid that everybody just finds wonderful if they can tolerate kids at all.

One day, as you're out in your respective back yards, he motions you over and says with a confidence-sharing air, "You know, God talked to me this morning. He told me I gotta shoot my kid with this here pistol, soon as he gets home from school."

Your neighbor walks away, muttering to himself.

You glance at your watch. The kid's due home in about half an hour, and you know from a past traffic accident at the corner that it takes the cops about 15 minutes to get there.

Okay. Do you call the cops, or not?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Of course! There are no other Abrahams!

Isaac and Abraham foreshadows the relationship that exists between God the Father and Jesus the Son, the Promise, the sacrificial Lamb.

There will be no repeat performance!

 

[tulc]

Okay. Do you call the cops, or not?

Absolutely!
tulc(and keep an eye out for the kid in case he gets home early)

 

[tulc]

uhmmm do you see a problem between these posts?

If I discerned the voice of my Father telling me to do something that seemed off to me, I would ask Him to confirm it. Once He does that, I am good to go. God never asks us to do ANYTHING that would bring us harm. It is always for good.

This is about trust. When you know His voice and trust Him, He will lead you into exciting things.

In Abraham's case, he trusted God fully. He knew that Isaac was the son of promise, and that God would provide a way out. That's the kind of trust God wants in each of us. He is worth it.

Of course! There are no other Abrahams!

Isaac and Abraham foreshadows the relationship that exists between God the Father and Jesus the Son, the Promise, the sacrificial Lamb.

There will be no repeat performance!

tulc( )