The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[Open Heart]

The Orthodox Church had an incident several years ago in which a 'celibate' Priest had been doing slumber parties with the teens and taking pictures of them half-naked, having them pose etc... The pics made it to the Parish Council, and they contacted the Bishop, who came and met with them all together, was shown the pictures and told how they were taken, and he simply asked the priest if the stories were true... The Priest confessed, and was laicized on the spot, and was told to clear out his belongings from the Church and report to the Police station the following morning to confess what he had done and receive whatever punishment they deemed appropriate...

And he did so...

This is not to criticize your church, but to simply show your priests are just as human as anyone else, including the temptation to intimidate victims on behalf of the Church. Human nature is human nature, and back then, society simply didn't understand the nature of pedophilia.

The drawer is stuffed with folders, neatly arranged. Inside, Larson says, are letters from the hundreds of people who have contacted her in the past 10 years claiming they were sexually abused by Orthodox priests....
Since then, the three women have watchdogged Orthodox parishes and listened to the stories of victims -- some of whom will write them for years without revealing their names. Fear of retribution runs deep in the Roman Catholic Church, as the reports on its current sexual abuse scandal bear out. In the older and more conservative Orthodox Church, the fear can run even deeper. "You feel like it's just you against this big historical thing," says Greta Larson. "That's in the Catholic Church, too, but it's more so in the Orthodox Church. There's a liberal vein of the Catholic Church, but [the Orthodox Church] is not even close to having that."
http://www.sfweekly.com/sanfrancisco/un-orthodox-behavior/Content?oid=2145058

 

[Open Heart]

It was only given to Peter after his reinstatement as an Apostle following his denial of Christ...

It was to Peter that Jesus gave the Keys.

 

[Open Heart]

Most protestant pastors had affairs with the opposite sex or adults. Not children.

Child sexual abuse happens at a given rate in society. Protestant pastors abuse at the same rate. It is also covered up.

I personally had a friend (who attended an Assembly of God church) whose daughter was raped to the point of bleeding by the pastor's son, a deacon. When she went to the pastor, he told her to shut up about it. She went to the board about it, and they threatened to kick her out of the Church if she "gossiped." She was told to "forgive." She left the Church.

Human nature is the same wherever you go.

 

[Arsenios]

We didn't know then what we know now. Society thought of pedophilia as a MORAL shortcoming. The Church therefore thought the answer was repentence and re-education. NOW we know that pedophilia is a deep seated pathology, and that these people simply don't change -- sexual attraction is simply a stable thing that no amount of therapy is going to altar.

IOW, we NOW know they are going to re-offend no matter how many times they "repent" and no matter how much "re-education" they recieve. But to blame the church for how things were handled before this was known? This is Monday morning quarterbacking.

The Church can cure pedophilia...
The cure is repentance...
First stage of the cure is the removal of the temptation...
This means removal from all possibility of contact...
It means entering into a penitential life...
Prayer, fasting, labors, vigils, daily services, sleep deprivation...
The medicines of immortality
All done willingly...
In a monastery setting...
Under constant supervision...
In the absence of willingness, incarceration is about the only option...

I have to say I was shocked to see that the RCC in the USA thought that they were being pastorally correct to send the offending priests back into contact with the objects of their passions... That is just plain wrong from ANY point of view... You do not get an alcoholic a job as a bartender and keep sending him from bar to bar as he keeps on drinking... The evidence of the fall of the Catholic Church of the West is blatantly evident in this total loss of basic and elementary first principle of repentance... "Flee the temptation!"

And now, if you are correct in your reporting of their new understanding, they are writing off such people as incurable, because western psychotherapy has no way of treating them efficaciously... This reflects a totally carnal and worldly understanding of the treatment of ANY passion... And it shows the absence of the means the Church has had for two thousand years now and counting of dealing with issues of sexual passions...

If what you are saying is true, the RCC is STILL utterly clueless on how to deal in a Christian manner with the issue of the cure of such people and joining them with God...

Lord have mercy...

We had a priest who fell into an affair with a married woman in his parish.
He confessed his sin, and was immediately defrocked and sent to a monastery.
I seriously doubt he will ever look at another woman in his life...
And he will overcome his passion of fornication...
And find salvation...

Arsenios

 

[Open Heart]

The Church can cure pedophilia...
The cure is repentance...
First stage of the cure is the removal of the temptation...
This means removal from all possibility of contact...
It means entering into a penitential life...
Prayer, fasting, labors, vigils, daily services, sleep deprivation...
The medicines of immortality
All done willingly...
In a monastery setting...
Under constant supervision...
In the absence of willingness, incarceration is about the only option...

I'm not sure if you are being facetious. Repentance doesn't mean removal of temptation.
I agree that they ought never again be given the chance to re-offend. It sounds like you are describing a kind of house arrest. I would say that after a period of punishment, I would agree (except the sleep deprivation, which is torture).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He confessed his sin, and was immediately defrocked and sent to a monastery.
I seriously doubt he will ever look at another woman in his life...
And he will overcome his passion of fornication...
And find salvation...

Not from what I've read of the history and from priests who left and blew the whistle, so to speak. No, no references... just what I learned over 20 years ago
from priests who left for conscience sake...
Perhaps you can find info if you actually seek for it though?
I honestly don't know what you can find.

 

[Arsenios]

I'm not sure if you are being facetious.

I am not surprised, so incredibly far has the Latin Church fallen...

Repentance doesn't mean removal of temptation.

The first step is to get the drunk sober...

You remove his access to booze...
You de-tox and inject B-12...
You quell his DT's if you can...
You give nutritional support...

THEN you can begin to TALK about repentance...

I agree that they ought never again be given the chance to re-offend.

An offending priest needs laicization on the spot,
and needs to turn himself in to authorities,
confess his CRIME, and do the time...

That is the BEGINNING of repentance...
He THEN needs solitude and prayer and labors...
He needs fasting and all night vigils...
He needs daily confession of his thoughts...
He needs penances for straying thoughts...

He does NOT need the priesthood...
He does NOT need access to acolytes...
He does NOT need social re-integration with victims...
He does NOT need another 'chance'...
He does NOT need to receive Communion...

It sounds like you are describing a kind of house arrest.

I am describing the arrest of sin...
And then the overcoming of sin...
And then the healing of sin...

I would say that after a period of punishment, I would agree
(except the sleep deprivation, which is torture).

Yours is a carnal understanding...

This is not about punishment for a crime committed...

It is about ascending the Ladder of Divine Ascent...
It is about denial of self and overcoming the world...

In repentance, sleep deprivation is voluntary...
It is an obedience...
It is a part of the purging of the wound of sin...
Ordinary Saints do it who have done no such sin...
Apostolic Life in Christ 101... Luke 9:58

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Not from what I've read of the history and from priests who left and blew the whistle, so to speak.
No, no references... just what I learned over 20 years ago from priests who left for conscience sake...
Perhaps you can find info if you actually seek for it though?
I honestly don't know what you can find.

He is not the whistle-blower - He is the one on whom the whistle was blown...
He was taken out of Communion and out of the Priesthood and placed in a monastery...
He complied with all this voluntarily - He had broken no state or federal laws...
Carnal affairs with married women are not against the law in the US...
He did so for the salvation of his soul...

In the early Church, they had what were called "Criers"... These were people who were baptized members of the Church who had returned to their sins in temptations, and confessed, and were deprived of Communion for a period of time... You would find them outside the Church, on their knees, crying piteously for those about to receive Communion to please pray for them, for the salvation of their souls, at the time for prayers of intercession in the Service of the Divine Liturgy... When they had finally overcome their temptations, the Presbyteros [Priest] would then receive them back into Communion and permit them to partake of the Body and Blood of our Lord... It often took many years, and the fasting and extra labors were harsh... And glorious...

We in the west, and I suffered this deprivation, really do not know WHAT a Christian Life in Christ looks like... Or what it can take, or its Joy... Or its tears... Neither the Joy nor the tears are worldly...

Indeed the very word for holy, agios, literally means un-earthly...

Arsenios

 

[Open Heart]

I am not surprised, so incredibly far has the Latin Church fallen...

You have a burr in your saddle. Are you EO by birth, or were you a convert from Evangelicalism that brought your anti-Catholicism with you?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thanks to Jesus, I just read the Bible and believed God is always TRUTHFUL.
That saved me from the errors .... (that even evangelicalism is not able to save anyone from ).

 

[Arsenios]

You have a burr in your saddle.

I thought that was just your nose!

Are you EO by birth,

That would have saved a lot of trouble...
But no... Only by re-birth!

or were you a convert from Evangelicalism

My ex-priest is a RECOVERING Evangelical...
That is a long and hard road...
Progress is slow...
But it IS progress!

that brought your anti-Catholicism with you?

I love Catholics... I support Catholics... I am friends with Catholic Priests...

The Latin Church is a lover of its own authority...

The Orthodox Faith loves Christ's authority...

Your Papa is not our Boss - Christ is...

That fact does not exit you from being an Apostolic Church...

But it DOES exit you from OUR Holy Communion...

fwiw, I am a recovering atheist of 36 years...

My conversion to Christianity took place 14 years after my first encounter with God...

He sent me to the Orthodox Faith...

The rest is simple observation...

Your interpretation of the events that led to 50-some years of protected infiltration of your Church by male-child-molesting priests lacks ecclesiastical deficiencies that caused it... It is a carnal understanding, with a carnal solution, and not an ecclesiastical one... Get a good team of psychological screeners to make sure such people are never let into the priesthood... By doing that, you are totally missing the Gift God has given to you by that 50 year incursion of evil into your Church...

Look - The Orthodox Church has just as much sin in it as your Church does... And we have had just as many issues of cover-ups... But we have also had righteous and holy Fathers who have stepped up to the plate and laicized offending Priests, and sent them to police investigators in full confession... Or to monasteries for Spiritual rehab... There will always be issues like this occurring from time to time - But not a whole culture extending even into the Seminaries where pedophiles make sure their pedophilic buddies pass all their exams, and decent students get penalized...

THAT, you see, should cause your Church to look ecclesiastically at its understanding, and especially of its role in its own self-affirmation as the Authority of Christian Faith and Morals... And this they have not done... They have simply looked to secular psychologists fir better screening, and still do not know the Way of the cure of the illness of the soul in terms of ecclesiological engagement...

I pray that God is raising up Catholics who will take this bitt in their teeth and run with it to the safety of the Ancient Faith that comprehends and deals with such matters as the Purification of the Heart, the Illumination of the Nous, and the Divinization of the Person in Christ... It does not take all that many of these kinds of Fathers to recognize and neutralize the demonic forces involved in such miscreances...

So my origins are entirely anti-Christian atheism, and neither cradle-Orthodox nor convert-Evangelical...
What I see happening in the Latin Church is disheartening...
They are struggling enough, but have no basis for recovery...

Lord have Mercy on them...

And on you, my beloved friend...

Arsenios

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He sent me to the Orthodox Faith...

This may be true. For you, it is certainly true for now.
Like the 40 years in the wilderness for Moses, and others, the training and testing is accomplished by Yhwh, His Way, His Purpose, His Plan..... not man's..

What I see happening in the "" Church is disheartening...
They are struggling enough, but have no basis for recovery...

This too is common and has been observed for centuries , in most all of the world, not just one segment of it...
Seek Yhwh's Kingdom which is at hand, with the perfect joy, peace and righteousness that the Father in heaven offers freely along with salvation in Yeshua
Yhwh's Way, His Purpose, His Plan, ..... not man's ....

Lord have Mercy on them...

As He did and says all through Scripture, on those called and chosen, all those who call on Him and turn to Him to live in Him, according to His Word. amein.

 

[Arsenios]

This may be true. For you, it is certainly true for now.
Like the 40 years in the wilderness for Moses, and others, the training and testing is accomplished by Yhwh, His Way, His Purpose, His Plan..... not man's..


This too is common and has been observed for centuries , in most all of the world, not just one segment of it...
Seek Yhwh's Kingdom which is at hand, with the perfect joy, peace and righteousness that the Father in heaven offers freely along with salvation in Yeshua
Yhwh's Way, His Purpose, His Plan, ..... not man's ....

As He did and says all through Scripture, on those called and chosen, all those who call on Him and turn to Him to live in Him, according to His Word. amein.

The Orthodox Faith joins with Paul in suffering for the Church, and the world...

Col 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His Body's sake,
which is the Church:

How do you understand: "that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ"??

Arsenios

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How do you understand: "that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ"??

Arsenios

I don't know if I understand it or not, technically.
All I experientially know in Christ is that we (ekklesia called and chosen by the Father for this purpose - nothing random, nothing by chance, nothing without His Purpose) suffer with Christ, as He suffered for us,
so also we suffer in this world, in our lives, not a suffering for our sins ( that's something entirely different),
but a suffering the same as Christ, as His representatives, as one with Him, for the Gospel Good News (same motive in us, same purpose as Christ for others, actually as the Father Himself chooses us to suffer as He chose Christ to suffer , The Father's Purpose).

 

[Open Heart]

Thanks to Jesus, I just read the Bible and believed God is always TRUTHFUL.
That saved me from the errors .... (that even evangelicalism is not able to save anyone from ).

So basically everyone else's interpretation was wrong, but your interpretation was right. You were different from every other Christian that has ever been born. uh huh.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So basically everyone else's interpretation was wrong, but your interpretation was right. You were different from every other Christian that has ever been born. uh huh.

Jesus came to earth to save sinners.
Jesus gathered some disciples and taught them as the Father said to do.
Others rejected Jesus.
No one had to interpret anything - it was all spelled out for them.
Same today.
Those who interpret do so to protect their evil lives, opposing God and His Word.
Everyone gets a choice (maybe) whether to believe God, to believe God's Word, and follow Jesus,
or to follow wicked men who interpret contrary , directly contrary, to Jesus and His disciples.

i.e. no interpretation necessary . none permitted by God in His Word. period.
CHOOSE TODAY God says - who you will follow: evil men, the devil, or God.
No interpretation needed to understand that.

 

[Open Heart]

But we have also had righteous and holy Fathers who have stepped up to the plate and laicized offending Priests

You have the same problems with cover ups that we have had. The problem with misunderstanding pedophilia, considering it a moral problem that can be easily repented of, and being more inclined therefore to protect the church, was EVERY church's inclination back then. It look pretty bad that you dismiss the sins of your church.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

back then

Nothing's changed.

 

[prodromos]

It look pretty bad that you dismiss the sins of your church.

I beg your pardon? Arsenios did no such thing.

 

[Open Heart]

Nothing's changed.

incredible.