The Doctrines Of Grace

[Hentenza]

Those that follow the teachings of John Wesley and Eastern Orthodox. I'll think of others and post them.

 

[RobertZ]

All I know is that last November I came to the end of myself in a very unusual way and I knew I was heading to hell, I knew for a long time that I was heading to hell but I could not seem to do anything about it.

I got up out of my bed one morning and made up my mind that I was getting saved, I drove other to my father in laws house (He is a decon at my church) I sensed a very heavy burden resting upon my soul. I broke down in front of him crying and everything and told him I had never truly been saved, I was deeply ashamed of telling him this because I knew I had been deceiving everyone into thinking I was a christian.

I prayed and asked God to save me, I really didnt feel much different afterward and im some ways I still felt a heavy burden but I knew that I suddenly wanted to know more about Jesus. The following Monday when I went to work I suddenly realized that the majority of my friends had very foul mouths, I never thought much of it before but suddenly a curse word would peirce right through me and I hated to even be around it.

Soon after that I found myself to be in a deeply deppressed state not understanding why sin was so nasty all of a sudden, I was wondering if God was exposing me to sin but not comforting me over it as a form of showing me that he rejected me or something.

 

[TimRout]

I prayed and asked God to save me, I really didnt feel much different afterward and im some ways I still felt a heavy burden but I knew that I suddenly wanted to know more about Jesus.

Brother, once again, salvation is not a feeling. You know you can't trust your feelings. Just take God at His Word and start walking. Faith is not an emotion.

 

[RobertZ]

Brother, once again, salvation is not a feeling. You know you can't trust your feelings. Just take God at His Word and start walking. Faith is not an emotion.

I believe you Tim, I know its not a feeling but did you see the part where I stated that (I decided that I was going to go get saved?)

Im worried that if the calvanist position is correct then maybe God did not save me since its something I decided I would do?

 

[Hammster]

I believe you Tim, I know its not a feeling but did you see the part where I stated that (I decided that I was going to go get saved?)



Im worried that if the calvanist position is correct then maybe God did not save me since its something I decided I would do?

Again you are showing a misunderstanding of the Calvinist view. We are saved because it is something we want to do. But prior to God giving a new heart, it isn't something that we desire. We desire nothing to do with God (Romans 3). So just because it is something you wanted to do, doesn't detract from Calvinism. Calvinism isn't a religion that one must follow to be saved The Doctrines of Grace are just a way of explaining what happens in salvation.

 

[RobertZ]

Again you are showing a misunderstanding of the Calvinist view. We are saved because it is something we want to do. But prior to God giving a new heart, it isn't something that we desire. We desire nothing to do with God (Romans 3). So just because it is something you wanted to do, doesn't detract from Calvinism. Calvinism isn't a religion that one must follow to be saved The Doctrines of Grace are just a way of explaining what happens in salvation.

Okay lets say that I am indeed converted and saved. Why suddenly did the whole world seem to become dark all around me and what in the world is going on with this sensitivity to sin? I thought I would be comforted after being saved but instead I suddenly noticed every little thing in the world that was sin that I was once was not able to recognize as being sinful.

It got so bad that it drove me into a deep deppression.

 

[TimRout]

Okay lets say that I am indeed converted and saved. Why suddenly did the whole world seem to become dark all around me and what in the world is going on with this sensitivity to sin? I thought I would be comforted after being saved but instead I suddenly noticed every little thing in the world that was sin that I was once was not able to recognize as being sinful.

It got so bad that it drove me into a deep deppression.

Since you have spoken of this publicly many times, there is no violation of confidence.

Why, even though you are saved, are you constantly struggling with feelings of condemnation and overwhelming anxiety? Answer: OCD.

You know, there are a great many members here at CF who will probably take exception to my saying this, but......perhaps you need to be a bit less systematic in your approach to theology. Rest as a little child in the arms of your Father, and leave the details in His sovereign hands. When OCD demands that you produce a perfect theological solution to your complex obsessions, just say "Sorry dude. Talk to the Savior!" I wonder if keeping it simple is the best way for you to experience the magnificent security of God's perfect grace? Just a thought....

 

[NickH]

Okay lets say that I am indeed converted and saved. Why suddenly did the whole world seem to become dark all around me and what in the world is going on with this sensitivity to sin? I thought I would be comforted after being saved but instead I suddenly noticed every little thing in the world that was sin that I was once was not able to recognize as being sinful.

It got so bad that it drove me into a deep deppression.

I'm no theologian but I think its a sign of conversion/walking with God. Sensitivity to sin brought on by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Showing you what was there but you were blind to in your sin. My relationship with God goes through its peaks and valleys. The closer I feel to him, the farther I feel from the world.

 

[Vince53]

Are you familiar with the late 4th and 5th century writings of Augustine of Hippo?Yes. He taught infant sprinkling, worship of the dead, and statue-worship, in addition to Calvinism. 1 Timothy 2:3-6, is sometimes referred to as "The St. Augustine Passage," where God lists Augustine's major errors in one place:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

St. Augustine was a false prophet, hailed as a hero by Catholics and Protestants alike, who sought to blend Christianity with paganism in order to produce a new and better religion.

 

[Tzaousios]

Are you familiar with the late 4th and 5th century writings of Augustine of Hippo?Yes. He taught infant sprinkling, worship of the dead, and statue-worship, in addition to Calvinism.

Indeed, Augustine believed in infant baptism. As for "worship of the dead" and "statue-worship," please show me in his own writings where he advocated such things. I mean PRIMARY sources, not secondary hit pieces on Augustine written by Protestants who are ignorant of church history and historical theology.

St. Augustine was a false prophet, hailed as a hero by Catholics and Protestants alike, who sought to blend Christianity with paganism in order to produce a new and better religion.

This sounds like extremist Catholic-hating rhetoric to me. Are you a fan of The Trail of Blood by chance?

At any rate, despite Augustine's ecclesiology and whatever theological points on which he may have been mistaken, it does not effect his views on the things I mentioned. You are commiting the fallacy of guilt by association, confusing cause and effect, and setting up a circumstantial ad hominem.

 

[Hammster]

Are you familiar with the late 4th and 5th century writings of Augustine of Hippo?Yes. He taught infant sprinkling, worship of the dead, and statue-worship, in addition to Calvinism. 1 Timothy 2:3-6, is sometimes referred to as "The St. Augustine Passage," where God lists Augustine's major errors in one place:



3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



St. Augustine was a false prophet, hailed as a hero by Catholics and Protestants alike, who sought to blend Christianity with paganism in order to produce a new and better religion.

Do you plan on interacting with the debate, or are you just one that comes in, says stuff ad leaves without intending to defend their position? It would help to know so that I will know whether or not to respond in the future.

 

[RobertZ]

Its just that things like Jesus warning others about Hell over and over again and to avoid it at all cost just makes no sense to me at all if a person does not have a free will to choose his eternal destiny.

I mean why would he even waste his time on these warnings if peoples eternal destinies were already sealed anyway?

Anyone care to comment on this?

 

[Hammster]

Its just that things like Jesus warning others about Hell over and over again and to avoid it at all cost just makes no sense to me at all if a person does not have a free will to choose his eternal destiny.



I mean why would he even waste his time on these warnings if peoples eternal destinies were already sealed anyway?

Let's take a step back here. You have stated yourself that you believe that peoples destinies are sealed. You hold the view that God looks through time and sees those who will accept Him, and those are the elect. So,then since there is no way those whom He doesn't foresee as accepting Him to be saved, why preach to those people? Why warn them?

 

[RobertZ]

Let's take a step back here. You have stated yourself that you believe that peoples destinies are sealed. You hold the view that God looks through time and sees those who will accept Him, and those are the elect. So,then since there is no way those whom He doesn't foresee as accepting Him to be saved, why preach to those people? Why warn them?

This could also be turned around to say why preach at all since the elect will get saved anyway?

It would seem to make more sense to me to warn people of Hell who have a free will and not a pre planned will from God.

 

[Hammster]

This could also be turned around to say why preach at all since the elect will get saved anyway?



It would seem to make more sense to me to warn people of Hell who have a free will and not a pre planned will from God.

But what difference does it make if they have free will, yet will not accept the offer? God knows that. And on the same note, if He knows that, why preach to them, They are going to be saved anyway.

 

[TimRout]

"If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth." [Deut. 28:1]

"However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you...." [Deut. 28:15]

"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." [Deut. 30:19-20]

"And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them." [Deut. 31:16]

Why did God bother going to all the trouble of spelling out His covenant, with all its blessings and curses, if He knew the people were going to disobey Him anyhow?

"Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their forefathers, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant." [Deut. 31:19-20]

Just as the Mosaic covenant stood as a witness between God and Israel, so the gospel stands as a witness between God and all mankind. The proponent of free will assumes a call to obedience must include the intrinsic ability to obey, but the text specifies no such thing. Rather, when the gospel is preached to the elect, it serves as the freeing power of God unto salvation. When it is preached to reprobates, it serves as the condemning witness of judgment and wrath.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." [1 Cor. 1:18]

 

[RobertZ]

" When it is preached to reprobates, it serves as the condemning witness of judgment and wrath.

Well I guess that explains why I always get condemned when reading the scripture or sitting in church. Great, just great.

So if your a reprobate and you want to get saved your pretty much out of luck and the gospel will only condemn you even more.

 

[the particular baptist]

Are you familiar with the late 4th and 5th century writings of Augustine of Hippo?Yes. He taught infant sprinkling, worship of the dead, and statue-worship, in addition to Calvinism. 1 Timothy 2:3-6, is sometimes referred to as "The St. Augustine Passage," where God lists Augustine's major errors in one place:


St. Augustine was a false prophet, hailed as a hero by Catholics and Protestants alike, who sought to blend Christianity with paganism in order to produce a new and better religion.

Just great. When synergists cant refute the sovereign grace of God from sound exegesis they resort to elementary carricatures, ad hominems, and straw men.

It think it was Spurgeon that said religionists gnash and grind their teeth at the mere thought of the sovereign grace of God.

 

[JacobHall86]

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Well I guess that explains why I always get condemned when reading the scripture or sitting in church. Great, just great.

So if your a reprobate and you want to get saved your pretty much out of luck and the gospel will only condemn you even more.

The reprobate will have no desire to be saved.

Them hearing the Gospel means that they will have no excuse.

 

[Hammster]

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Well I guess that explains why I always get condemned when reading the scripture or sitting in church. Great, just great.



So if your a reprobate and you want to get saved your pretty much out of luck and the gospel will only condemn you even more.

If you're a reprobate, you won't care.