The Doctrine of "Universalism" (Christian Universalism or Otherwise) True or False? (6)

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IamRedeemed

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You are asking the wrong question.
If it were "fulfilled prophecy" that were at issue, that would be a non-issue.
But we are not getting into the debate on Preterism in this thread.


How could fulfilled prophecy not be relevant, when the only place the lake of fire is spoken of is in the Revelation?

- Byron
 
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munchycrunchy

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please post your own argument, I can post a bunch of links here too

Does it really make any difference, or is it that you don't want an in-depth explanation to reading and studying the bible outside of what you know? If you were really interesting in a certain topic (such as Universalism) then you would have no problem with the posting of a link.
 
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munchycrunchy

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It seems I'm the odd universalist out here. I don't believe you need to be a full preterist to believe in universalism. :eek:

You don't. I simply am a Preterist, but nobody has to be a Preterist to believe in Universalism.
 
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Tavita

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You don't. I simply am a Preterist, but nobody has to be a Preterist to believe in Universalism.

Well, it's good you can see that, munchycrunchy, but from what I'm hearing from the Preterist/Universalist's is that the two go hand in hand, and I just don't believe it has so be so.
 
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Rajni

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As long as I debate in favor of Universalism, fulfilled prophecy statements are going to pop up. No derailment here, just a blending of the scriptures. Whether some see it ...or not.


Amen. It's the natural result of keeping things in context and not cherry picking verses. ; )


 
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Rajni

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Well, it's good you can see that, munchycrunchy, but from what I'm hearing from the Preterist/Universalist's is that the two go hand in hand, and I just don't believe it has so be so.
Preterism and Universalism can exist independently of each other; one doesn't have to believe both simultaneously.

I've managed to believe in universal redemption and also hold to a pre-trib view (until recently). I had read about preterism years before becoming UR, but only lightly. Now as a UR believer I'm finding that, eschatologically, preterism gels with UR a bit more easily (imo) than my pre-trib outlook does/did.
 
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Tavita

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Preterism and Universalism can exist independently of each other; one doesn't have to believe both simultaneously.

I've managed to believe in universal redemption and also hold to a pre-trib view (until recently). I had read about preterism years before becoming UR, but only lightly. Now as a UR believer I'm finding that, eschatologically, preterism gels with UR a bit more easily (imo) than my pre-trib outlook does/did.

I haven't believed in pre-trib for about fifteen years, but that doesn't make me a full preterist. I'm not sure of the 1000 earthly reign, I'm starting to see that a little differently now, but I don't believe the second coming has happened yet. I really don't see it gelling with UR all that easily.. :)

It seems most of the full preterist/universalists came to believe in UR 'through' preterism, so they seem to think it goes hand in hand. I had not even 'thought' of preterism being associated with universalism until this thread.
 
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munchycrunchy

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I haven't believed in pre-trib for about fifteen years, but that doesn't make me a full preterist. I'm not sure of the 1000 earthly reign, I'm starting to see that a little differently now, but I don't believe the second coming has happened yet. I really don't see it gelling with UR all that easily.. :)

It seems most of the full preterist/universalists came to believe in UR 'through' preterism, so they seem to think it goes hand in hand. I had not even 'thought' of preterism being associated with universalism until this thread.

I think they go well together, but someone can (and do) be a supporter of the eternal torment doctrine while being a Preterist. I didn't become a Preterist until AFTER I became a Universalist.
 
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Tavita

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I think they go well together, but someone can (and do) be a supporter of the eternal torment doctrine while being a Preterist. I didn't become a Preterist until AFTER I became a Universalist.

Well, we come in all sizes and shades don't we!! :D
 
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FineLinen

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It is good seeing some of the old faces on C.F. again. I have been absent from the threads for quite a season now: let noone say hurray! :D This is a subject that has been near and dear to my heart for many, many moons. May the Lord see fit to awaken all of us more fully into His enterprises & may He bless each of you as you stand before Him.

Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son he has ordained that all creation shall ultimately belong.

"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

Dr. Arthur Tappan Pierson -The Bible & Spiritual Life-

"This view (Restitution of All) is so clearly scriptural that the only surprise is that it has not been more definitely and widely held. It adds immeasurably, both to the glory of Christ as the coming King, and the Father as the former and framer of the ages. It is the period typified by the eighth day of the Mosaic Code: the perfect glory of Christ, reserved for 'the morrow after.' The millennial 'Sabbath.' And while the millenial period is limited to a thousand years, there are no definite limits to this final age of glory."

-Dr. P. B. Fitzwater- (Professor of Systematic Theology- Moody Bible Institute) Christian Theology P. 407

"Then there is the Universalist who declares that the redemption provided by Christ avails for the salvation of all men. This means that what God has done for the salvation of sinful men accrues to the benefit of all men. This view of Universalism is quite widespread. Many leaders in the evangelical church hold to this view, even though they have not dared to declare it."

From the Lutheran ELCA website......

"The Christian hope for salvation, whether for the believing few or the unbelieving many, is grounded in the person and meaning of Christ alone, not in the potential of the world's religions to save, nor in the moral seriousness of humanists and people of good will, not even in the good works of pious Christians and church people. ... There is a universalist thrust in the New Testament, particularly in Paul's theology. How else can we read passages such as 'for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ' (1 Cor 15:22)? -Theologian Carl Braaten-"

(See also Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15:28.)

The universal scope of salvation in Christ

ELCA Lutherans will say with Braaten

"Salvation in the New Testament is what God has done to death in the resurrection of Jesus. Salvation is what God has in store for you and me and the whole world in spite of death, solely on account of the living risen Christ.

... The universal scope of salvation in Christ includes the destiny of our bodies together with the whole earth and the whole of creation. This cosmic hope is based on the promise of eternal life sealed by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Through raising Jesus from the dead, God put death to death, overcoming the deadliest enemy of life at loose in the world. This hope for the final salvation of humanity and the eternal universal restitution of all things in heaven and on earth ... is drawn from the unlimited promise of the Gospel and the magnitude of God's grace made known to the world through Christ."

A Survey of Bible Doctrine by Charles Ryrie, Professor of Systematic Theology: Dallas Theological Seminary.

In the section on future things, he dismisses the Restitution of all things which he refers to as "Classic Universalism" as unbiblical.

However

In his K.J.V. Ryrie Study Bible, which was published a few years after his doctrine book, he says a very interesting thing in his footnote on Colossians 1:20

"Col 1:20 .... to reconcile all things unto himself. Christ is the remedy for alienation from God, and eventually all things will be changed and brought into a unity in Him, even though this will involve judgment."

-Dr. Ernest L. Martin-

"Many Christian leaders presently believe that Christ will redeem the totality of the world to himself one day. I talked to a Presbyterian minister with impeccable theological credentials from one of the Ivy League universities and he informed me that a full 95% of ministers he knew personally believed in a universal salvation by Christ—though most held the belief secretly, since it was not generally accepted by the denomination. I have not the slightest doubt that the percentage would be high in other denominations as well. Anything less than this would be incompatible with the love and attitude demonstrated by Christ for the world that He created (John 3:16–17)."
 
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Tavita

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It is good seeing some of the old faces on C.F. again. I have been absent from the threads for quite a season now: let noone say hurray! :D This is a subject that has been near and dear to my heart for many, many moons. May the Lord see fit to awaken all of us more fully into His enterprises & may He bless each of you as you stand before Him.



"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

Dr. Arthur Tappan Pierson -The Bible & Spiritual Life-

"This view (Restitution of All) is so clearly scriptural that the only surprise is that it has not been more definitely and widely held. It adds immeasurably, both to the glory of Christ as the coming King, and the Father as the former and framer of the ages. It is the period typified by the eighth day of the Mosaic Code: the perfect glory of Christ, reserved for 'the morrow after.' The millennial 'Sabbath.' And while the millenial period is limited to a thousand years, there are no definite limits to this final age of glory."

-Dr. P. B. Fitzwater- (Professor of Systematic Theology- Moody Bible Institute) Christian Theology P. 407

"Then there is the Universalist who declares that the redemption provided by Christ avails for the salvation of all men. This means that what God has done for the salvation of sinful men accrues to the benefit of all men. This view of Universalism is quite widespread. Many leaders in the evangelical church hold to this view, even though they have not dared to declare it."

From the Lutheran ELCA website......

"The Christian hope for salvation, whether for the believing few or the unbelieving many, is grounded in the person and meaning of Christ alone, not in the potential of the world's religions to save, nor in the moral seriousness of humanists and people of good will, not even in the good works of pious Christians and church people. ... There is a universalist thrust in the New Testament, particularly in Paul's theology. How else can we read passages such as 'for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ' (1 Cor 15:22)? -Theologian Carl Braaten-"

(See also Colossians 1:15-20, Ephesians 1:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15:28.)

The universal scope of salvation in Christ

ELCA Lutherans will say with Braaten

"Salvation in the New Testament is what God has done to death in the resurrection of Jesus. Salvation is what God has in store for you and me and the whole world in spite of death, solely on account of the living risen Christ.

... The universal scope of salvation in Christ includes the destiny of our bodies together with the whole earth and the whole of creation. This cosmic hope is based on the promise of eternal life sealed by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. Through raising Jesus from the dead, God put death to death, overcoming the deadliest enemy of life at loose in the world. This hope for the final salvation of humanity and the eternal universal restitution of all things in heaven and on earth ... is drawn from the unlimited promise of the Gospel and the magnitude of God's grace made known to the world through Christ."

A Survey of Bible Doctrine by Charles Ryrie, Professor of Systematic Theology: Dallas Theological Seminary.

In the section on future things, he dismisses the Restitution of all things which he refers to as "Classic Universalism" as unbiblical.

However

In his K.J.V. Ryrie Study Bible, which was published a few years after his doctrine book, he says a very interesting thing in his footnote on Colossians 1:20

"Col 1:20 .... to reconcile all things unto himself. Christ is the remedy for alienation from God, and eventually all things will be changed and brought into a unity in Him, even though this will involve judgment."

-Dr. Ernest L. Martin-

"Many Christian leaders presently believe that Christ will redeem the totality of the world to himself one day. I talked to a Presbyterian minister with impeccable theological credentials from one of the Ivy League universities and he informed me that a full 95% of ministers he knew personally believed in a universal salvation by Christ—though most held the belief secretly, since it was not generally accepted by the denomination. I have not the slightest doubt that the percentage would be high in other denominations as well. Anything less than this would be incompatible with the love and attitude demonstrated by Christ for the world that He created (John 3:16–17)."

Great post, FineLinen! I was especially excited by the last paragraph as I believe there are a great multitude in all denominations who secretly believe in UR. And I also believe the time is coming when they will all come out of the denominational woodwork and openly declare their beliefs as the fear of man starts to dwindle. Praise His Holy Name!!
 
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