The Dark Ages – a period of both intense darkness and great Light

[revanneosl]

Ah - but you see, what you (or those who taught you) characterize as "resisting and persecuting" is, when viewed from the Orthodox point of view, simply a rather puzzled assertion that "No thank you, we don't need your missionaries, we already have Christianity here." The idea that there should be a buffet of choices of different brands or styles of Christianity is an entirely Western notion, anathema to the Eastern way of thinking.

 

[Biblicist]

revanneosi,

I agree with you in that EO churches would view evangelism by Christian mission groups as being odd particularly as most EO adherents seem to see their religions roots as defining their ethnic belonging. For someone who is Albanian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Georgian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Macedonian Orthodox, Romanian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox; we can generally tell their ethnicity from their orthodoxy.

The problem is that the Roman Catholics have the same attitude worldwide and they spend a lot of energy trying to convince various denominations from sending missionaries into their ‘traditional’ areas of ownership; though within the West they wouldn’t dare try this. Some Evangelical denominations have succumbed to this pressure but to my knowledge no Pentecostal denomination has – and they better not!

From what I hear from those who I meet that are from one of the EO groups, it does seem that their religious life is more one that keeps them in contact with their historical and family roots and that’s about it. I certainly cannot recall ever meeting any such person who has had a vibrant Christian testimony and any notion of walking in the Spirit seems to be an unknown concept to them – at least from what I see within our country.

Their desire to ensure that Evangelical and Pentecostal missionaries are kept out of their lands by almost any method seems also to be the same approach that is used by the orthodox Jews in Israel as well.

If I were to write about the moral attributes of the EO denominations I suspect that they may come out probably a bit worse when compared to Roman Catholicism; as my information is sketchy on this complicated creature I think that it’s best to leave it alone for now. If nothing else, as our Western church history has been framed from within a different mindset to that of Eastern Orthodoxy it does become hard to see its relevance to contemporary Western Christianity.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Consider for a moment that a group of Orthodox Christians from, let's say Bulgaria, came into your community, and targeted your friends, neighbors and your own children teaching them that your Evangelical/Pentecostal Christianity isn't valid, saying that unless you submit yourselves to Orthodoxy you're not really Christian. When you tried to gently explain that you already are a Christian, by explaining what you believe, why and by quoting Scripture they tell you that you're wrong because you're not in communion with Christ's holy, catholic and apostolic Church (Orthodoxy), that your Bible is a corrupt Protestant version missing several books (books removed by unscrupulous men such as Martin Luther) and that to persist in your ways is a rejection of Jesus and that you aren't really Christian, really born again.

Now imagine if this kept happening year, after year, after year.

Imagine how you might feel about this.

I imagine that is how a number of Orthodox Christians feel in traditionally Orthodox places such as Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia (et al). The Church is there already, Christianity is already there and they are engaging in missionary and evangelistic work within their own neighborhoods and communities according to their understanding of mission work and evangelism. Westerners, many of whom may not even have any grasp of what Orthodoxy is at all, coming over and telling them they don't have the right Christianity, the right Bible is going to come across as intrusive, arrogant, offensive and as not only an attack on their faith, but their very way of life. We are talking about places where for many people Christianity is a saturated, intricate, inseparable part of their day-to-day existence.

Just consider for a moment how they feel and how you would feel and react if the same were done to you.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[revanneosl]

Further, try to imagine that they used phrases like "a vibrant Christian testimony" and "walking in the Spirit" in ways that made it clear that these were code-phrases which were meant to make their own experience of the Risen Christ seem somehow inadequate.

If I were to write about the moral attributes of the EO denominations I suspect that they may come out probably a bit worse when compared to Roman Catholicism;

I frankly don't know where you get the gall to assume that you are in any way qualified to judge "the moral attributes" of the two most ancient and continuously-observed branches of the Christian faith.

Dude - try a dose of humility. It'll be bitter, but a spoonful of gospel sugar makes the medicine go down.

 

[Yarddog]

I frankly don't know where you get the gall to assume that you are in any way qualified to judge "the moral attributes" of the two most ancient and continuously-observed branches of the Christian faith.

Dude - try a dose of humility. It'll be bitter, but a spoonful of gospel sugar makes the medicine go down.

I have yet to see him back up a single opinion of his with facts. I guess that we are supposed to accept his opinions as fact.

 

[wayseer]

wayseer,

Islam??

Indeed. I know it is rather dangerous to admit as much but the fact of history stares us in the face. It comes as something of a shock to learn that the basis of Western science, medicine and agriculture comes from the East.

 

[Biblicist]

Overall, it seems the intent of this topic has fallen on many deaf ears and it seems that for many history is not something that they wish to learn from – unless of course it is a sanitised version that will not upset anyones sensibilities.

 

[Biblicist]

revanneosl,

Further, try to imagine that they used phrases like "a vibrant Christian testimony" and "walking in the Spirit" in ways that made it clear that these were code-phrases which were meant to make their own experience of the Risen Christ seem somehow inadequate.

Code words! If these phrases are unknown to them, then maybe we should be handing out Bibles so that they can read the Word of God for themselves. If they are as uncomfortable as you say they are with the Word, then you may be providing us with an indicator or two about their spiritual cognisance. Would they be upset with phrases such as being ‘Born Again’ and with ‘justification by faith’?

Dude - try a dose of humility. It'll be bitter, but a spoonful of gospel sugar makes the medicine go down.

Where does humility come into the equation with respect to the Gospel of Jesus Christ; is the Lord supposed to pander to social and ethnic norms and are we to water down the Gospel so that it does not offend the religious sensibilities of some – hardly!


It’s not hard to have an attitude of humility especially as the Pentecostal and Charismatic denominations have their own collection of worldly practices, odd doctrines and bucket loads of carnal activities. I am more than aware of our own limitations (a nice polite and politically sensitive word) and it can be a constant struggle to address these when they arise even within my own direct circles of association. If I am prepared to acknowledge the foolishness, wickedness and carnality within the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement then I am hardly concerned when others within the RCC & EO denominations become upset with my statements.

Am I concerned or upset when people criticise we Pentecostals and Charismatics for the wickedness and the abuses that occurs within us, of course not as I would hope that I am mature enough to recognise that we have many areas that we can improve in - or more importantly repent of. So whenever any group becomes upset when statements are made regarding their denominations history and moral abuses, be it historical or contemporary; it does tend to fall on very unsympathetic ears and it certainly indicates an attitude of denial on their part.

Maybe someone would like to start a topic on the attitudes of the Evangelical and Pentecostal churches in Germany leading up to WW2 and after. Undoubtedly we have many things to repent of and even though I have no knowledge of any Pentecostal congregations in Germany during this time, if they existed and that we were as guilty as the Evangelicals then we deserved to be judged for our behaviour.

Remember, this topic is in part about recognising both the good and evil that has existed within the Body of Christ both now and with past centuries; the moment we start crying foul with how dare anyone criticise our particular sacred institution then in my opinion they have lost the plot – so from me, absolutely no sympathy will be shown and I will certainly not be applying any crocodile tears to either myself or with the denominations that I reside within.

 

[Biblicist]

Yarddog,

I have yet to see him back up a single opinion of his with facts. I guess that we are supposed to accept his opinions as fact.

I am totally amazed with your comment. So you are of the opinion that the research and combined knowledge of thousands of academics over the years is not worth a pinch of salt – so your attitude must be that everything is rosey and your denomination has nothing to answer to and that it was never involved with any atrocities; maybe the Roman Curia was simply misunderstood, incredible.

Without going back to your earlier post, I seem to recall you saying that one of the popes recently apologised regarding the murder of John Hus by Rome in the 1400’s; maybe the pope was mistaken with his understanding of history and if someone had of corrected his ‘error’ then he wouldn’t have had to make his ‘erroneous’ apology; of course there were also the thousands who were killed on both sides by the five papal armies that were sent to subdue the Hussites and I hope he apologised for that - but of course this could also be a false concoction to misrepresent Rome – for goodness sake!

 

[Yarddog]

Yarddog,
I am totally amazed with your comment. So you are of the opinion that the research and combined knowledge of thousands of academics over the years is not worth a pinch of salt – so your attitude must be that everything is rosey and your denomination has nothing to answer to and that it was never involved with any atrocities; maybe the Roman Curia was simply misunderstood, incredible.

What academics? You continue to make idle claims without giving us the ability to examine who these people are or their body of work. Plenty of historians make claims that are not based on actual facts. If you want to make claims, give us the material.

Without going back to your earlier post, I seem to recall you saying that one of the popes recently apologised regarding the murder of John Hus by Rome in the 1400’s;

No. I did not say that he apologized for the "murder" of Hus. Murder has always been your word. Hus was put on trial and found guilty of heresy. That is factual. The Pope apologized for his death.

maybe the pope was mistaken with his understanding of history and if someone had of corrected his ‘error’ then he wouldn’t have had to make his ‘erroneous’ apology; of course there were also the thousands who were killed on both sides by the five papal armies that were sent to subdue the Hussites and I hope he apologised for that - but of course this could also be a false concoction to misrepresent Rome – for goodness sake!

Pope John Paul II apologized for the sins of the past Church. What errors you refer to, I do not know.

 

[Steve Petersen]

As has probably already been pointed out, it certainly may have been the Dark Ages for European Christians, but some other cultures were experiencing their apexes.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

How on earth are the Donatists "bright lights"? Donatism was a position against grace and mercy and the power of God, arguing that the efficacy of the Sacraments were dependent upon the personal righteousness of the one officiating

I'm not seeing how the Donatists could be considered "bright lights" either. More like Pharisaical holier than thou "lights". Don't sin after baptism because God probably wont forgive you "lights".

 

[CryptoLutheran]

revanneosl,

Code words! If these phrases are unknown to them, then maybe we should be handing out Bibles so that they can read the Word of God for themselves. If they are as uncomfortable as you say they are with the Word, then you may be providing us with an indicator or two about their spiritual cognisance. Would they be upset with phrases such as being ‘Born Again’ and with ‘justification by faith’?

Or perhaps you could read up on Orthodoxy. Evangelical phraseology, which I know is supposedly "totally biblical", hasn't been used by Christians for two thousand years necessarily. "Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" for example is language that is completely modern, isn't found in the Bible and from the position of many Christians is theologically absurd.

And if you told an Orthodox person that they need to be "born again", they, just like Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans and Christianity in general going back two thousand years would say that we have been born again: in Holy Baptism.

Where does humility come into the equation with respect to the Gospel of Jesus Christ; is the Lord supposed to pander to social and ethnic norms and are we to water down the Gospel so that it does not offend the religious sensibilities of some – hardly!

The humility to recognize that your brand of Christianity isn't the only brand of Christianity and to recognize the holy Christian faith of your brothers and sisters from another part of the globe. That's not pandering or watering down the Gospel, that's being a good Christian.

It’s not hard to have an attitude of humility especially as the Pentecostal and Charismatic denominations have their own collection of worldly practices, odd doctrines and bucket loads of carnal activities. I am more than aware of our own limitations (a nice polite and politically sensitive word) and it can be a constant struggle to address these when they arise even within my own direct circles of association. If I am prepared to acknowledge the foolishness, wickedness and carnality within the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement then I am hardly concerned when others within the RCC & EO denominations become upset with my statements.

Am I concerned or upset when people criticise we Pentecostals and Charismatics for the wickedness and the abuses that occurs within us, of course not as I would hope that I am mature enough to recognise that we have many areas that we can improve in - or more importantly repent of. So whenever any group becomes upset when statements are made regarding their denominations history and moral abuses, be it historical or contemporary; it does tend to fall on very unsympathetic ears and it certainly indicates an attitude of denial on their part.

Maybe someone would like to start a topic on the attitudes of the Evangelical and Pentecostal churches in Germany leading up to WW2 and after. Undoubtedly we have many things to repent of and even though I have no knowledge of any Pentecostal congregations in Germany during this time, if they existed and that we were as guilty as the Evangelicals then we deserved to be judged for our behaviour.

Remember, this topic is in part about recognising both the good and evil that has existed within the Body of Christ both now and with past centuries; the moment we start crying foul with how dare anyone criticise our particular sacred institution then in my opinion they have lost the plot – so from me, absolutely no sympathy will be shown and I will certainly not be applying any crocodile tears to either myself or with the denominations that I reside within.

I don't take issue with criticism of other churches; I merely feel the necessity of pointing out reasons why Orthodox Christians might not be terribly excited about having foreign missionaries telling them they aren't really Christian enough and how that might make them a little bit irritated.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Walter Kovacs]

wayseer,

Islam??

We would likely have none of the knowledge we do know about astronomy, philosophy, medicine, and everything else if it wasn't for Islam.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

We would likely have none of the knowledge we do know about astronomy, philosophy, medicine, and everything else if it wasn't for Islam.

Aristotle was virtually unknown in Europe, if it hadn't been for that fact that Aristotle's writings had been preserved by Arabs and introduced into Europe through Spain, the entirety of Western Philosophy and science wouldn't have progressed the way it did. For the Scholastics, especially Aquinas, Aristotle wasn't just a philosopher he was "The Philosopher".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Walter Kovacs]

Islamic theological and philosophical from that period thought is a truly fascinating thing (along with science, etc). I'd disagree on the conclusions, but those guys were a breed apart.

 

[Biblicist]

Ishraqiyun (#32)

I'm not seeing how the Donatists could be considered "bright lights" either. More like Pharisaical holier than thou "lights". Don't sin after baptism because God probably wont forgive you "lights".

Lets see, there does appear to be a Scripture where Jesus says something along the lines of, “If you deny me then I will deny you…” Even though the excommunication of the traitors who betrayed not only Christ but also the members of the Church would have caused the Church some considerable pain; they have at least attempted to protect the Body from false brethren and left unchecked these traitors could have completely undermined the Church. As Paul admonished the Corinthians for not casting out those who committed serious moral sin, the Church in North Africa undoubtedly has tried to protect the Body in the same manner and certainly to their credit.

So the Donatists were certainly “holier than the institutionalised church” which was content with acommodating the traitors. I’m sure that the Donatists would have been more than happy to see these traitors join the Roman Catholic churches in their region.

If the Lord ever forgave them, who knows; at least the elders of the Body of Christ recognised their incredible sin and that they should have no fellowship with them.

 

[Biblicist]

CryptoLutheran (# 33),

Or perhaps you could read up on Orthodoxy. Evangelical phraseology, which I know is supposedly "totally biblical", hasn't been used by Christians for two thousand years necessarily. "Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" for example is language that is completely modern, isn't found in the Bible and from the position of many Christians is theologically absurd.

Over the decades I have certainly met many individuals who have come from RC & EO backgrounds who have testified that they never knew anything that was in the Bible other than with what their priests may have told them. Considering that I have personally heard several hundred people say this and have had others repeat much the same along with the numerous written testimonies – am I surprised, hardly. To those who are perishing the Gospel of Christ certainly does seem absurd.

Having been employed by a major missions organisation and also having heard numerous missionaries over the years who have struggled with local paganism which is often mixed within RC & EO religious life, the question as to the validity of the salvation of the majority of the local inhabitants rarely seems to be a question that they need to address as their life styles often shows that they live without Christ.

And if you told an Orthodox person that they need to be "born again", they, just like Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans and Christianity in general going back two thousand years would say that we have been born again: in Holy Baptism.

Undoubtedly you would be more than aware that for many millions of Evangelicals and probably with all Pentecostals, we view the practice of infant ‘baptism’ as being one that has cast a dark shadow over countless generations and even entire people groups allowing many to die not knowing Christ.

If this is the only way an individual can say that they are Christians, simply because they were ‘baptised’ as unbelieving infants and often by parents who were themselves unbelievers, then they would rightfully be seen as being in need of the Gospel. I appreciate that for many who are within the more liturgical denominations that this is offensive to them but so be it.
Last Sunday we had a baptismal meeting where 85 were baptised in water and on a number of occasions testimonies were given by young people who realised that even though they were born of believing parents (with at least four children having parents on staff) that they knew they had to repent of their sin and give their hearts to the Lord – and then be baptised in water; they knew that their parental background meant nothing nor did their ecclesiastical heritage. There were others who were baptised in water for the first time since becoming Christians many years before as they had only been ‘baptised’ as unbelieving infants.

The humility to recognize that your brand of Christianity isn't the only brand of Christianity and to recognize the holy Christian faith of your brothers and sisters from another part of the globe. That's not pandering or watering down the Gospel, that's being a good Christian.

Even though I am a Pentecostal I am more than content to see the many cessationist missionaries reaching out to the unsaved with the Gospel of Christ; if this ‘brand’ of Christianity is able to effectively reach the unsaved and that people are giving their hearts to the Lord through repentance then praise God. There are even many Seventh Day Adventists who are effectively evangelising the lost in many Third World regions and elsewhere; again if this brand of Christianity is reaching the lost for Christ then I can only give God the glory.

For those missionaries from the various Evangelical, SDA or even Full Gospel denominations and para-church groups who are only interested in presenting a form of religion that is based more on Western consumerism within regions that are ethnically EO, then may the Lord deal with them as he sees fit.

I don't take issue with criticism of other churches; I merely feel the necessity of pointing out reasons why Orthodox Christians might not be terribly excited about having foreign missionaries telling them they aren't really Christian enough and how that might make them a little bit irritated.

I understand your position quite well and virtually every missionary and individual Christian who shares the Gospel of Christ encounters much the same attitude from unbelieving friends, communists, Muslims, Hindus, gang members and whoever so it really does not factor into any of our evangelism strategies – other than being aware that we will undoubtedly encounter opposition.

I’m not so sure that our approach would be so much about not being “Christian enough; we would be more interested in seeing people coming to know Christ as their personal saviour. If they are allowed to fellowship within their ethnic church then great but within many areas we tend to find that they can encounter a fairly high degree of opposition and even persecution – and from within supposedly Christian churches.

Barry

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Ishraqiyun (#32)

Lets see, there does appear to be a Scripture where Jesus says something along the lines of, “If you deny me then I will deny you…” Even though the excommunication of the traitors who betrayed not only Christ but also the members of the Church would have caused the Church some considerable pain; they have at least attempted to protect the Body from false brethren and left unchecked these traitors could have completely undermined the Church. As Paul admonished the Corinthians for not casting out those who committed serious moral sin, the Church in North Africa undoubtedly has tried to protect the Body in the same manner and certainly to their credit.

So the Donatists were certainly “holier than the institutionalised church” which was content with acommodating the traitors. I’m sure that the Donatists would have been more than happy to see these traitors join the Roman Catholic churches in their region.

If the Lord ever forgave them, who knows; at least the elders of the Body of Christ recognised their incredible sin and that they should have no fellowship with them.

Holiness must mean grace or it is not holy. To deny the repentant reconciliation and to then say that God's gifts are dependent, not on His mercy and His grace, but upon the personal righteousness of the ones officiating is a denial of grace.

That is what Donatism ultimately is, the denial of grace, the denial of forgiveness, the denial of mercy, the denial of the saving power of God.

That is why it was rightly called a heresy, for that is what it is, rank heresy that attacks the Gospel itself and undervalues and rejects the grace of Almighty God to save, reconcile and redeem what is properly His.

If that is "holiness", then I would prefer the alternative whatever it might be, because it is nothing like the holiness of God or of Christ Jesus His only-begotten Son and our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Biblicist]

Girolamo Savonarola (1452 – 1498)

Savonarola was a Dominican monk of their Observant Order who upon his arrival at the priory of San Marco in Florence he started to fiercely preach against the abuses of the clergy and with the shameful financial outlays toward extravagant artworks which he viewed as outrageous considering the state of the poor in his city. Due to certain events many of the Florentines were overwhelmed by a sense of piety where they subsequently destroyed many of their luxury items which became known as the “burning of the vanities”. His attack on homosexuality which was deemed to be acceptable in Florence saw a number of wealthy Florentines leave for safer cities which also upset many of the influential members of Florence and with numerous members of the Roman Curia.

Unfortunately for Savonarola he soon upset Pope Alexander VI who decided to silence him by having him burnt at the stake in 1498 which ended his and the attempts of his followers with moral and ethical reform. Even though he is unknown to most of us his impact for a brief period was immense but sadly short lived; his ministry and with those who agreed with them shows that there were still men of high character who were prepared to make the final sacrifice for the Gospel.

C.H. Spurgeon wrote in 1869, "How far was Savonarola the herald of Protestantism?"

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Observant Orders

"As the name indicates, the Observance (observantia/observantia regulae) within the orders was first and foremost a movement to return to the rules and the lifestyle of their pristine beginnings. A major motivation for this was the conviction that the orders had succumbed to decadence, by discarding loyalty to their rules, and by giving in to pressures that had allowed them to become wealthy and influential, but through which they had lost much of the spiritual ardour to fulfil the tasks for which they had been created."