The Dangers of Freemasonry

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Rev Wayne

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No one buys Masonry is of JESUS
What a vivid imagination you have. No one claimed any such thing. Mike TRIED to claim that Masonry's principles are in contradiction to Christian teaching. My point was, their statement about what is CENTRAL in their teaching, was a statement of the same thing Jesus said should be central in our thinking as well: doing unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Therefore, Mike's claim stands refuted, and he still hasn't bothered to try to tell us why doing unto others as one would have them do unto us, is a problem. He keeps trying to change the subject to something else instead.

Masonry's three primary duties are just as I posted. They also have:

Three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity. (Paul called them "cardinal" in a sense, too, when he described these three as the things which abide when nothing else does.)

Three cardinal tenets: brotherly love, relief, and truth.

Three principal rounds on Jacob's ladder: faith, hope, and love.

Three pillars: wisdom, strength, and beauty.

Three knocks: ask, seek, and find.

Three Great Lights: Holy Bible, square, compasses.

and you as a proclaimed Rev.

Make that "called" if you wish to be accurate. If you have a problem with the fact God called me to the ministry, you really need to take that up with Him.

not being able to identify that your service in masonry is a living contradiction to the beliefs of a christian and as a proclaimed servant of christ as a Rev. in the pulpit raises the issue of your personal beliefs being a danger to the body of christ.
My beliefs are best expressed by the Nicene Creed. I stand by them as a Christian, as a member of this forum, and especially as a minister.

What do you find "cultic" about the Nicene Creed?
 
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Rev Wayne

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Christ said,"suffer the children to come unto me...for such is the kingdom of heaven"
what is the greatest ministry that is under the auspices of the Masons?
Shriner's hospitals for children...free care for kids with burns, orthopedic problems and spinal defects...no money asked for from the patients family at all.
I have a friend whose daughter almost died from curvature of the spine...the Shriner's hospital in Greenville,S.C. basically saved her life...try telling her family that the Shriners are evil...They will laugh you out of town!
My sister went to the same hospital as a child, to have webbed fingers separated--a procedure which was fairly new in the 50's. Some people don't know it, but Shriners themselves spend quite a bit of personal time with patients at the hospitals. We have a picture of a couple of them who were visiting my sister when my parents made the visit:

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With six kids, it would have been quite a burden for any family. But, as with all their services, there was no charge. Try telling my sister about these "evil" people.
 
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ALX25

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Christ said,"suffer the children to come unto me...for such is the kingdom of heaven"
what is the greatest ministry that is under the auspices of the Masons?
Shriner's hospitals for children...free care for kids with burns, orthopedic problems and spinal defects...no money asked for from the patients family at all.
I have a friend whose daughter almost died from curvature of the spine...the Shriner's hospital in




Greenville,S.C. basically saved her life...try telling her family that the Shriners are evil...They will laugh you out of town!

Christ never taught multiple VSL's VOLUMES of SACRED LAW, nor to reffer to a common man capable of sining as a WORSHIPFUll MASTER... LOL... christ never taught mohamed ..allah...buddah ...dolly lama...where all equal and divine as he...are you serious dude...LOL....


And as far as shriners go that ancient arabic order...look at the Fez and the islamic saber that represents SHRINERS...then come back and reply...and let me know if that was of christ JESUS...What JESUS of the Holy Bible have you been taught?

NEXT....
 
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ALX25

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What a vivid imagination you have. No one claimed any such thing. Mike TRIED to claim that Masonry's principles are in contradiction to Christian teaching. My point was, their statement about what is CENTRAL in their teaching, was a statement of the same thing Jesus said should be central in our thinking as well: doing unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Therefore, Mike's claim stands refuted, and he still hasn't bothered to try to tell us why doing unto others as one would have them do unto us, is a problem. He keeps trying to change the subject to something else instead.

Masonry's three primary duties are just as I posted. They also have:

Three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity. (Paul called them "cardinal" in a sense, too, when he described these three as the things which abide when nothing else does.)

Three cardinal tenets: brotherly love, relief, and truth.

Three principal rounds on Jacob's ladder: faith, hope, and love.

Three pillars: wisdom, strength, and beauty.

Three knocks: ask, seek, and find.

Three Great Lights: Holy Bible, square, compasses.



Make that "called" if you wish to be accurate. If you have a problem with the fact God called me to the ministry, you really need to take that up with Him.


My beliefs are best expressed by the Nicene Creed. I stand by them as a Christian, as a member of this forum, and especially as a minister.

What do you find "cultic" about the Nicene Creed?




Your beliefs of masonry and it's GAOTU window show of common or central teachings found in any and every religion under the sun do not and will not point soley to Christ JESUS...they can't do that Rev.Wayne ... and you as a proclaimed Rev. can not lead or help any man in or through a Masonic Lodge and expect him to have the Gospel of Christ as JESUS himself presented it to man....

Example ....the God of the Holy Bible , God the Father God the Son and God the Holy spirit does not.. nor did ever explain Volumes of Sacred Law..ie the Quran ..Mohamed...as divine instruction to man... something is terribly wrong with that...and its not OFF or ALX25 or the Bible...the same Bible that a Rev. should preach from never adding or subtracting to the word of God ...so your beliefs are to be examined here... and as a masonic Rev... Im saying there's a clear and present DANGER in you believing so.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Your beliefs of masonry and it's GAOTU window show of common or central teachings found in any and every religion under the sun do not and will not point soley to Christ JESUS...they can't do that Rev.Wayne
Of course not. The Gospel has been entrusted to the church, that's their job, not the lodge's--or didn't you know that?

and you as a proclaimed Rev. can not lead or help any man in or through a Masonic Lodge and expect him to have the Gospel of Christ as JESUS himself presented it to man....

Dear me, why on earth would I do that? If I plan to lead a man to Jesus and present the Gospel to him, I'll invite him to church. And if he comes, I'll invite him to the altar. That's what the church is for, and is its stated purpose (at least it is in my denomination, I'm beginning to wonder about yours), to make disciples of Jesus Christ. The lodge is a place that promotes friendship--often among people who might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance.

the God of the Holy Bible , God the Father God the Son and God the Holy spirit does not.. nor did ever explain Volumes of Sacred Law..ie the Quran ..Mohamed...as divine instruction to man... something is terribly wrong with that

The fact remains, though, that all "volumes of sacred law" contain SOME divine instruction. This has been shown on this forum before, by showing that a teaching Jesus defined as CENTRAL in Christian faith and practice--doing unto others as you would have them do unto you--is found in every religion you can name. Not only that, in some of them, it PREDATES the teaching as found in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Therefore, (1) we cannot claim any exclusivity for it; (2) we cannot claim any originality for it; and (3) we cannot claim, at least not in any blanket manner, that sacred books of other religions contain no divine truth.

But none of that changes the fact that Masonry's principles are founded upon only ONE book, and that book is the Holy Bible.

the same Bible that a Rev. should preach from never adding or subtracting to the word of God
Which is exactly what I do. You should come hear me preach before passing judgment. Do so, and you will not hear one word from the pulpit about the lodge. To suggest any differently is completely ludicrous.

so your beliefs are to be examined here
I've already submitted my beliefs for examination. I fully affirm the statements found in the Nicene Creed. You're familiar with it, I suppose? Which of the doctrines found there do you have a problem with? By all means, let's talk about that.

Im saying there's a clear and present DANGER in you believing so.

The only clear and present danger I see here is, you might have an embolism or something, with the level of venting we typically see from you.
 
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ALX25

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Of course not. The Gospel has been entrusted to the church, that's their job, not the lodge's--or didn't you know that?



Dear me, why on earth would I do that? If I plan to lead a man to Jesus and present the Gospel to him, I'll invite him to church. And if he comes, I'll invite him to the altar. That's what the church is for, and is its stated purpose (at least it is in my denomination, I'm beginning to wonder about yours), to make disciples of Jesus Christ. The lodge is a place that promotes friendship--often among people who might otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance.



The fact remains, though, that all "volumes of sacred law" contain SOME divine instruction. This has been shown on this forum before, by showing that a teaching Jesus defined as CENTRAL in Christian faith and practice--doing unto others as you would have them do unto you--is found in every religion you can name. Not only that, in some of them, it PREDATES the teaching as found in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Therefore, (1) we cannot claim any exclusivity for it; (2) we cannot claim any originality for it; and (3) we cannot claim, at least not in any blanket manner, that sacred books of other religions contain no divine truth.

But none of that changes the fact that Masonry's principles are founded upon only ONE book, and that book is the Holy Bible.


Which is exactly what I do. You should come hear me preach before passing judgment. Do so, and you will not hear one word from the pulpit about the lodge. To suggest any differently is completely ludicrous.


I've already submitted my beliefs for examination. I fully affirm the statements found in the Nicene Creed. You're familiar with it, I suppose? Which of the doctrines found there do you have a problem with? By all means, let's talk about that.



The only clear and present danger I see here is, you might have an embolism or something, with the level of venting we typically see from you.


Wayne your contradicting yourself...

1(One). You stated all volumes of sacred law contain some divine instruction..

as a proclaimed Rev. of the christian faith your basically saying you agree with the instructions of false gods. Your active membership as a mason is the agreement sir...


2.(Two) Doing onto others as you would have them do unto you...is nice ...., however in no way shape or form is that the definition or a requirement to recieve forgivness of your sins and to become a new creature in Christ JESUS to inherit eternal salvation...again Wayne self works do not cut it here...and a you proclaiming to be a Rev. and trying to prove a central teaching that can be shared by an atheist really doesn't add up..

3.(Three) As you pointed out as your FACT that in your Masonic organization "all volumes of sacred law" contain some divine truth is the masonic foundation of claiming to instruct, guide, and teach masonic men morality among other things in the first place... the masonic mebership to a lodge is extended to the candidate... which means this way of thinking by the masonic lodge is simply this: we the masons have truth to instruct you , let us help and instruct you in our ways...


But the alarming thing Wayne is you a procalimed man of God (christian) believe masonry is soley founded on one book which would be the Holy Bible.

Of Course we both know thats not the case , simply because only in the practiced Craft of Free and Accepted Masond will some one find an alter erected in a lodge with Multiple "Volumes of Sacred Law" and recognize them all as divine instruction ..... which go's AGAINST the Holy Bible ... the same Holy Bible that you claim is the one book used in Masonry.



That's the danger.........
 
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Rev Wayne

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Wayne your contradicting yourself...
Not really. What's happening is, you're substituting things I did NOT say for what I DID say, and then calling it "contradiction." That's not contradiction, it's just pure nonsense.

1(One). You stated all volumes of sacred law contain some divine instruction..
On THAT point, at least, you spoke correctly. And I provided one prominent example to prove it.

as a proclaimed Rev. of the christian faith your basically saying you agree with the instructions of false gods.

But on THAT one, you failed miserably. To believe THAT one, one would have to accept the premise that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" came from "false gods." Since it was stated by Jesus in the Bible, there's no way what you claim could be true.

I'm sure you're simply trying to "explain how it got there" in some way that does away with the necessity of viewing it as divine truth. The fact that it was spoken by Jesus does not permit you to do that kind of butchery to it. It IS divine truth, and as such, it cannot be dismissed as having "false gods" as its source. You can't take a statement that appears in the Bible AND in other sacred books, and proclaim it to be divine truth in one, and false in the other.

2.(Two) Doing onto others as you would have them do unto you...is nice ...., however in no way shape or form is that the definition or a requirement to recieve forgivness of your sins and to become a new creature in Christ JESUS to inherit eternal salvation...

Irrelevant to the point, since what you just stated IN NO WAY changes the fact that "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a divine truth.

again Wayne self works do not cut it here
Wow, calling the teachings of Jesus "self works?" I'm sorry, but you'd better take that one to HIM, not me, I have no response to that kind of sophistry.

and a you proclaiming to be a Rev.
Not "proclaiming" anything at all in that regard, except that God called me into Christian ministry, which is true.

and trying to prove a central teaching that can be shared by an atheist really doesn't add up..

Boy, talk about adding things I didn't say--where on earth did you come up with some idea I said anything about any "atheist?" Sorry, maybe you got the wrong dictionary, but an atheist and an adherent of some other religion, are not the same thing.

3.(Three) As you pointed out as your FACT that in your Masonic organization "all volumes of sacred law" contain some divine truth is the masonic foundation of claiming to instruct, guide, and teach masonic men morality among other things in the first place...

I never said anything about that being the "masonic foundation. . .," etc. I simply said they all contain SOME divine truth--and they do. All one has to do to recognize that fact, is to take an objective look at what is found there; compare it with biblical truths and principles to see whether there are comparable truths in each; and then, if there are, accept the fact without rancor and railing, and recognize that God's truth, though it is best found in the Bible, is not LIMITED to it. Christians have acknowledged this for centuries, don't know why you should have a problem with it as if you think you know more than biblical thinkers through the centuries.

I think your problem derives from "all or nothing" thinking, in which some kind of faulty logic prevails, by which the acceptance of any point regarding any part, must somehow apply to the whole. I've clearly stated more than once, that there may be SOME truths in the sacred books of other religions. Trying to presume from my statement about the PART, that you may make pronouncements about "agreeing with the instructions of false gods," is on your part merely an exercise in foolishness.

But the alarming thing Wayne is you a procalimed man of God (christian) believe masonry is soley founded on one book which would be the Holy Bible.
Don't know why the truth is so alarming to you, but all you have to do is check out my next post and see just how much the Blue Degrees of Masonry are saturated with biblical content and foundation.

the same Holy Bible that you claim is the one book used in Masonry.

Once again, you misrepresent my words. I said the Holy Bible is the one book on which Masonry's principles are FOUNDED. In other words, I was speaking of CONTENT. Your return comment shows that you are clearly speaking of books resting on a table, NOT Masonry's content.

Honestly, you really need to slow down and read what I SAY, and save the speed-reading for some other time, it would save a lot of time that has to be spent correcting your errors. If you don't understand Masonry any better than you seem to understand what is posted to you, it's no wonder you have such misconceptions about it.

Again, my beliefs can be found as stated in the Nicene Creed. Unless you simply are not familiar with it, why do you not point out whatever it is you find there that is a problem for you?
 
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Rev Wayne

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Most holy and glorious Lord God, the great Architect of the Universe, the Giver of all good gifts and graces! (James 1:17) Thou hast promised that "where two or three are gathered together in Thy name Thou wilt be in the midst of them and bless them." (Matthew 18:20)


Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! . . . (Psalm CXXXIII read in its entirety, KJV)

To this object the Mason's mind is continually directed, and thither he hopes at last to arrive by the aid of the theological ladder, which Jacob, in his vision, saw ascending from earth to heaven; (Gen. 28:10-22) the three principal rounds of which are denominated FAITH, HOPE and CHARITY, (1 Cor. 13:13) and which admonish us to have faith in God, (Mark 11:22, 1 Pet. 1:21) hope in immortality, (1 Cor. 15:54) and charity to all mankind. (Gal. 6:10)

Thus he shewed me: and, behold, the LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumb-line, with a plumb-line in his hand. . . (Amos VII, 7,8 is read in its entirety, KJV).

Do good unto all. Recommend it more especially "to the household of the faithful." (Galatians 6:10)
By diligence in the duties of your respective callings; by liberal benevolence and diffusive charity; by constancy and fidelity in your friendships, discover the beneficial and happy effects of this ancient and honorable Institution. Let it not be supposed that you have here labored in vain (1 Cor. 15:54) and spent your strength for naught; for your work is with the Lord and your recompense with God. (Ruth 2:12)

Finally, brethren, be ye all of one mind; live in peace, and may the God of love and peace delight to dwell with and bless you! (2 Cor. 13:11)

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth . . . (Ecclesiastes XII, 1-7 is read in its entirety, KJV).

Thou, O God! knowest our down-sitting and our uprising, and understandest our thought afar off. . .(Psalm 139:2)


Glory be to God on High, and on earth peace, good will toward men! (Luke 2:14)
O Lord, we most heartily beseech Thee with Thy favor to behold and bless this assemblage. Pour down Thy mercies, like the dew that falls upon the mountains, (Psa. 133:3) upon Thy servants engaged in the solemn ceremonies of this day. Bless, we pray Thee, all the workmen who shall be engaged in the erection of this edifice; keep them from all forms of accident and harm, and grant them health and prosperity while they live. And finally, we pray that when our earthly toils and labors are ended we may all, through Thy mercy, wisdom and forgiveness, attain everlasting joy and felicity in the mansions prepared for us in that temple not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Amen. (2 Cor. 5:1)

In the name of the Great Jehovah, to whom be all honor and glory, I do solemnly dedicate this Hall to Freemasonry.

And may the Lord, the giver of every good and perfect gift, (James 1:17)
bless the brethren here assembled, in all their lawful undertakings, and grant to each one of them in needful supply, the Corn of nourishment, the Wine of refreshment, and the Oil of joy. Amen.

Now may the presence, comfort and strength of our Heavenly Father and the peace that passeth all understanding (Philippians 4:7) abide with us all, now and always. AMEN.

"Almighty and Eternal God, (Deu. 33:27) in Whom we live, and move, and have our being, (Acts 17:28) we pray that Thou will grant each of us health, happiness, and well being in the coming year. We hold the hope that each of us and all our Brothers whom we hold dear, will be present when we close this Lodge of Sorrow at the end of its appointed time. But should it be your will to call for workmen from among our ranks, then help those remaining to see the Wisdom in Your choice.

Just after the reading of Psalm 133 in the EA ritual, we find:

The great teaching of this Psalm is Brotherly Love, that virtue which forms the most prominent tenet of the Masonic Order. And it teaches the lesson, too, precisely as we do, by a symbol, comparing it to the precious ointment used in the consecration of the High Priest, whose delightful perfume filled the whole place with its odor. The ointment was poured upon the head in such quantity, that, being directed by the anointer in different ways in the form of a cross, it flowed at length down the beard, and finally dropped from the flowing skirts of the priestly garment.
The fifteen Psalms, from the 120th to the 134th, inclusive, of which this, of course, is one, are called by the Hebrews, "songs of degrees," because they were sung on the fifteen steps ascending from the court of Israel to the court of the women of the Temple. (Ahiman Rezon 2003, p. 66-67)

The following passage of Scripture is here used:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be Light; and there was Light. (AR, p. 71)
But what mind can conceive, or what pen portray, that terrible convulsion of nature, that awful disentanglement of its elements, which must have accompanied the Divine command, "Let there be Light!" The attempt to describe it would be a presumptuous task. We feel, when we meditate on the subject, that stillness and silence must have fled before the Almighty Voice, and the earth itself have trembled in its new existence, when the gloomy pall of darkness was rolled as a curtain from the face of nature. (p. 72)
When at last your trembling soul stands naked and alone before the Great Judgment, may it be your portion to hear from Him who is the Judge Supreme: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant, enter now into the joys of the Lord." (p. 76)
The Operative Masons at Jerusalem, from whom we date our origin, were occupied in the construction of an earthly and material temple, to be dedicated to the service and worship of God--a house in which the mighty Jehovah was to dwell visibly by the Shekinah, and whence He was by Urim and Thummim, to send forth His oracles for the government and direction of His chosen people.
The Speculative Mason is engaged in the construction of a spiritual temple in his heart, pure and spotless, fit for the dwelling place of Him who is the author of purity; where God is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth, and whence every evil thought and unruly passion are to be banished, as the sinner and the Gentile were excluded from the sanctuary of the Jewish Temple.
In the symbolic language of Masonry, therefore, the twenty-four inch gauge is a symbol of time well employed; the common gavel, of the purification of the heart. (p. 79-80)
Various passages of Scripture are referred to in this section as elucidating the traditions of Masonry on the subject of the Temple.
And we will cut wood out of Lebanon, as much as thou shalt need; and we will bring it to thee in floats by sea to Joppa; and thou shalt carry it up to Jeruslem.--2 Chron. II, 16. (p. 82)
And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither; so that there was neither hammer, nor axe, nor any tool of iron heard in the house while it was in building.--1 Kings VI, 7. (p. 83)
Josephus says, "The whole structure of the Temple was made with great skill, of polished stones, and those laid together so very harmoniously and smoothly, that there appeared to the spectators no sign of any hammer or any other instrument of architecture, but as if, without any use of them, the entire materials had naturally united themselves together, so that the agreement of one part with another seemed rather to have been natural, than to have arisen from the force of tools upon them." (p. 83)
Now this was the manner in former time in Israel governing redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave it to his neighbor; and this was a testimony in Israel.--Ruth IV, 7 (p. 84)
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.--Matthew VII, 7. (p. 84)
The idea, that the Lodge is a symbol of the world, is still carried out. It was the belief of the ancients that the heavens, or the roof of the world, was supported by pillars. By these pillars, some suppose that the mountains are alluded; but in reference to a passage in Job XXVI, 11, where it is said "The pillars of heaven tremble," Noyes thinks that "it is more probable that heaven is represented as an immense edifice, supported on lofty columns, like a temple." (p. 91)
P. 92 (entire page) is an artist's depiction of Jacob's ladder as described in his dream. I've tried to locate information about the source of the picture but to no avail. A small inscription of a name can be seen in the lower right, and magnified, it appears to be "Jecorhous," but an internet search produced no result.
A Lodge is situated due east and west, because, when Moses crossed the Red Sea, being pursued by Pharaoh and his host, he erected on the other side, by divine command, a tabernacle, which he placed due east and west, to receive the first rays of the rising sun, and to commemorate that mighty east wind by which their miraculous deliverance was effected. This tabernacle was an exact pattern of King Solomon's Temple, of which every Lodge is a representation, and it is, or ought, therefore, to be placed due east and west. (p. 99-100)
In six days God created the heavens and the earth, and rested upon the seventh day; the seventh, therefore, our ancient brethren consecrated as a day of rest from their labors; thereby enjoying frequent opportunities to contemplate the glorious works of creation, and to adore their great Creator. (p. 114)
For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece; and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about.--1 Kings VII, 15. (p. 114)
Also he made before the house two pillars of thirty and five cubits high, and the chapiter that was on the top of each of them was five cubits.--2 Chron. III, 15. (p. 114)
And he made two chapiters of of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars; the height of the chapiter three cubits; the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits.--1 Kings VII, 16. (p. 114)
The height of the one pillar was eighteen cubits, and the chapiter upon it was brass; and the height of the chapiter three cubits; and the wreathen work, and pomegranates upon the chapiter around about, all of brass; and like unto these had the second pillar with wreathen work.--2 Kings XXV, 16. (p. 114)
The discrepancy as to the height of the pillars as given in the book of Kings and in Chronicles is to be reconciled by supposing that in the book of Kings the pillars are spoken of separately, and that in Chronicles their aggregate height is calculated; and the reason that in this latter book their united height is placed at 35 cubits, instead of 36, which would be the double of 18, is because they are there measured as they appear with the chapiters upon them. Now half a cubit of each pillar was concealed in what Dr. Lightfoot calls "the hole of the chapiter," that is, half a cubit's depth of the lower edge of the chapiter covered the top of the pillar, making each pillar apparently only 17 1/2 cubits high, or the two, 35 cubits, as laid down in the book of Chronicles.
In a similar way we reconcile the difference as to the height of the chapiters. In 1 Kings and 2 Chronicles the chapiters are said to be five cubits high, while in 2 Kings their height is described as being only three cubits. But it will be noticed that it immediately follows in the same place, that "there was a wreathen work and pomegranates upon the chapiter around about." Now the expression is conclusive that the height of the chapiters was estimated exclusive and independent of the wreathen work round about them, which was two cubits more, and this added to the three cubits of the chapiter proper, will make the five cubits spoken of in all other parts of Scripture. (p. 114-16)
Here a symbol of Plenty is introduced, and proper explanations are given as to the proper answers to the following questions:
What does it denote?
How was it represented?
Why was it instituted?

The passages of Scripture which are referred to in this part of the section will be found in Judges XII, 1-6. The Vulgate version gives a periphrastic translation of a part of the 6th verse, as follows: "Say, therefore, Shibboleth, which being interpreted is an ear of corn." the same word in Hebrew signifies a rapid stream of water, from the root SHaBaL, to flow copiously. The too common error of speaking, in this part of the ritual, of a "water-ford" instead of a "water-fall," which is the correct word, must be carefully avoided. A water-fall is an emblem of plenty, because it indicates an abundance of water. A water-ford, for the converse reason, is, if any symbol at all, a symbol of scarcity. (p. 127-28)
Immediately following the monitorial degree work, is a section detailing the qualities of a Mason, with this description:
As the Bible is the first Great Light presented to a candidate, the following quotations from that inspired book are recommended to his previous perusal:

"Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
"He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
"He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbor, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbor.
"In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoreth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth to his own heart, and changeth not.
"He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent." Psalm XV.
"Who shall ascend into the hills of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
He that hath clean hands and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully."--Psalm XXIV, 3, 4.
"What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
"Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
"Depart from evil and do good; seek peace, and pursue it."--Psalm XXXIV, 12-14.
Then let the candidate prepare himself to say:
"I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue; I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me."--Psalm XXXIX, 1.
"I will wash mine hands in innocency; so will I compass thine altar, O Lord."--Psalm XXVI, 6.
 
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ALX25

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Not really. What's happening is, you're substituting things I did NOT say for what I DID say, and then calling it "contradiction." That's not contradiction, it's just pure nonsense.


On THAT point, at least, you spoke correctly. And I provided one prominent example to prove it.



But on THAT one, you failed miserably. To believe THAT one, one would have to accept the premise that "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" came from "false gods." Since it was stated by Jesus in the Bible, there's no way what you claim could be true.

I'm sure you're simply trying to "explain how it got there" in some way that does away with the necessity of viewing it as divine truth. The fact that it was spoken by Jesus does not permit you to do that kind of butchery to it. It IS divine truth, and as such, it cannot be dismissed as having "false gods" as its source. You can't take a statement that appears in the Bible AND in other sacred books, and proclaim it to be divine truth in one, and false in the other.



Irrelevant to the point, since what you just stated IN NO WAY changes the fact that "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a divine truth.


Wow, calling the teachings of Jesus "self works?" I'm sorry, but you'd better take that one to HIM, not me, I have no response to that kind of sophistry.


Not "proclaiming" anything at all in that regard, except that God called me into Christian ministry, which is true.



Boy, talk about adding things I didn't say--where on earth did you come up with some idea I said anything about any "atheist?" Sorry, maybe you got the wrong dictionary, but an atheist and an adherent of some other religion, are not the same thing.



I never said anything about that being the "masonic foundation. . .," etc. I simply said they all contain SOME divine truth--and they do. All one has to do to recognize that fact, is to take an objective look at what is found there; compare it with biblical truths and principles to see whether there are comparable truths in each; and then, if there are, accept the fact without rancor and railing, and recognize that God's truth, though it is best found in the Bible, is not LIMITED to it. Christians have acknowledged this for centuries, don't know why you should have a problem with it as if you think you know more than biblical thinkers through the centuries.

I think your problem derives from "all or nothing" thinking, in which some kind of faulty logic prevails, by which the acceptance of any point regarding any part, must somehow apply to the whole. I've clearly stated more than once, that there may be SOME truths in the sacred books of other religions. Trying to presume from my statement about the PART, that you may make pronouncements about "agreeing with the instructions of false gods," is on your part merely an exercise in foolishness.


Don't know why the truth is so alarming to you, but all you have to do is check out my next post and see just how much the Blue Degrees of Masonry are saturated with biblical content and foundation.



Once again, you misrepresent my words. I said the Holy Bible is the one book on which Masonry's principles are FOUNDED. In other words, I was speaking of CONTENT. Your return comment shows that you are clearly speaking of books resting on a table, NOT Masonry's content.

Honestly, you really need to slow down and read what I SAY, and save the speed-reading for some other time, it would save a lot of time that has to be spent correcting your errors. If you don't understand Masonry any better than you seem to understand what is posted to you, it's no wonder you have such misconceptions about it.

Again, my beliefs can be found as stated in the Nicene Creed. Unless you simply are not familiar with it, why do you not point out whatever it is you find there that is a problem for you?


I gotta say wayne you sure can dance...truly an art...now let's start with the basics...

(One). You stated all volumes of sacred law contain some divine truth or instruction..

So you as a Reverend of the christian faith Wayne believe that there are other books that contain Divine Truth other than the Holy Bible?


Is it your practice as a proclaimed christian Rev. to preach these so called "other Divine Truths" from other gods to your christian congregatuion?

Have you wayne ever heard of any Christian Minister preaching to his or her congregation from the Quran and or other Volumes of sacred Law that according to you contain "other divine truths" ?

Do you think this accepted masonic thinking of "other Divine truths"that you were taught weakens or strengthens the Body of Christ ? or in any way helps advance the Kingdom of Heaven...???

A calling to help Gods children come closer to him is one thing...the one being called understanding how to operate in his or her calling is an other..

Let's address the issue of your " other divine truths" first .....
 
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noeltu55

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I have shared this with my Father in law as He is a free Mason and claims all of the Presidents are. It is a place of Honor. How do you get thru. Even the Shrine in Pensacola looks just like a Mosque. Rebellion is as witchcraft. All I can do is pray for the darkness in this land to be removed in so many ways and the Spirit of the Lord would cover the earth as the waters cover the seas. God is an answer to believeing prayers, as a pastor once said.:amen:
 
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Funny how you always present only part of the picture. From the same degree, p. 149-50:



And, as usual, you forget the entrie system is symbolic. That "celebrated artist" is symbolic of that celebrated Savior we worship as Christians. You will even find it stated to be so in many places in Masonry. Your critique shows only (if it shows anything at all) that you don't understand the meaning of symbolic. Jesus spoke symbolically most of the time, critiquing His words for their literal meaning would be a foolish and fruitless gesture; for instance, it would be bizarre to say He taught cannibalism when He told the disciples to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

But if we take your basic premise about Masonry and apply it in like manner, that would be the Christian equivalent that would result. It is ludicrous for anyone to think you can take that which is symbolic, apply it literally, and then criticize the result of such an entirely spurious approach.
I'm guessing Rev Wayne is a mason
 
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Rev Wayne

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(One). You stated all volumes of sacred law contain some divine truth or instruction..
So youas a Reverend of the christian faith Wayne believe that there are other books that contain Divine Truth other than the Holy Bible?


Why is this something new to you? Christians have acknowledged as much for centuries. It's not really an issue, except for someone who is in denial, due to some mistaken notion that to concede such a point somehow undermines the Christian faith, or whatever it is you seem to think problematic about it. Again, I think your problem is, all-or-nothing thinking, whereby you make the false presumption that if one acknowledges even ONE divine truth can be found in the sacred books of other religions, that by some strange NECESSITY one is required to be saying the same thing of ALL THINGS THEREIN.

I've never met anyone personally, nor do I imagine ever encountering anywhere at any time, anyone with such an erroneous mindset as his/her frame of operation.

Let's put it this way:

When Jesus stated "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets," was He stating DIVINE TRUTH, or was He NOT?

When the same thing was stated in Egyptian texts from circa 1800 B.C., making it probably the oldest version of the same truth, was it even then a DIVINE TRUTH, or NOT? And if not, then why not?

The fact is, God's truth is timeless. If it was God's truth when Jesus stated it, then it has always been God's truth, and as such, was apprehended by Egyptian writers long before Jesus stated it to the people of Israel.

Heck, the timeless nature of God's truth is affirmed by Scripture:

I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” (Mt. 13:35)

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory. (1 Corinthians 2:10)

Why you're having such a problem wrapping your head around the concept is a mystery.


Is it your practice as a proclaimed christian Rev. to preach these so called "other Divine Truths" from other gods to your christian congregatuion?


Who said "other?" Once again, you are creating things and attributing them to me. For one thing, your use of the plural is in error, since I gave only one example. For another, I never said this was anything "other" than a divine truth, I simply stated that it is divine truth. And such it is. When I preach it, I happen to preach it from either Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 7:12, or Luke 6:31. You seem to be trying to pretend it does not exist there.

Do you think this accepted masonic thinking of "other Divine truths"that you were taught weakens or strengthens the Body of Christ ?


The only example I have given, is not "Masonic thinking." I was aware of the appearance of this truth in the various religions of the world, well before ever becoming a Mason. You seem to be stretching here, putting yourself out on a limb in your desperate attempt to make this something "Masonic." I assure you, we could be discussing this same matter on any Christian forum, without even so much as a designated area discussing Freemasonry.

But to answer your question, I don't see how it could possibly "weaken the body of Christ," when you consider how many people there have been through all the centuries since the time of Christ, who have held the same opinion.


By way of contrast, though, I think ghendricks, in his last couple of remarks to you, has touched on behaviors that certainly DO weaken the body of Christ. You'd be wise to take heed.

Why dont you go to the library do some research about cults and masonry..and the come back and share your little commentaries..

Interesting comment, coming as it does from someone who has not even bothered to document anything with any quotation from anywhere in Masonry since arriving here, NOT EVEN ONCE.


Don't chime into an argument kid
Another interesting comment, seeing it comes from one who chimed into a discussion I was having with Mike at the time. . . .

I stand with sword and shield against all deception..
Well, not ALL deception. You seem to have neglected to protect yourself against self-deception.
 
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Rev Wayne

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o.f.f. said:
The 'golden rule' statement does NOT nullify Freemasonry from being a SPIRITUAL BROTHERHOOD of a multiplicity of religions! It is simply your futile attempt to create a 'red herring' in order to avoid the facts presented to you in my last post. Sorry, but it won't work; but your deception is duly noted.
Okay, Mike, you wish to label the posting of content from Masonic monitors as "deception." I can't help that there is so much biblical content to be found there.

But perhaps you might care to clarify something for us, by posting--from the same type of sources, of course, monitorial--something that will convince us of your claim of a "multiplicity of religions."

To do so, naturally, you must have some notion that you can provide something from some Masonic monitor or ritual, showing us unmistakable content therein, that derives directly from the sacred book of some other religion?
 
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ALX25

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Why is this something new to you?
Your beliefs are strange and new

Christians have acknowledged as much for centuries. It's not really an issue, except for someone who is in denial, due to some mistaken notion that to concede such a point somehow undermines the Christian faith, or whatever it is you seem to think problematic about it. Again, I think your problem is, all-or-nothing thinking, whereby you make the false presumption that if one acknowledges even ONE divine truth can be found in the sacred books of other religions, that by some strange NECESSITY one is required to be saying the same thing of ALL THINGS THEREIN.

Your belief in other divine truths from other gods undermines the God of the Holy Bibles Sovereign capability of instructing man whom he created with his divine truth.

I've never met anyone personally, nor do I imagine ever encountering anywhere at any time, anyone with such an erroneous mindset as his/her frame of operation.

Let's put it this way:

When Jesus stated "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets," was He stating DIVINE TRUTH, or was He NOT?

The problem here is not what JESUS taught or spoke as divine truth..the problem here is your belief of "Other divine truths"

When the same thing was stated in Egyptian texts from circa 1800 B.C., making it probably the oldest version of the same truth, was it even then a DIVINE TRUTH, or NOT? And if not, then why not?

Your making my point Masonic Rev..... The children of Isreal ...Gods Children were delivered out of Egypt because of Eygpts many false gods and customs, which means christians must rely on the divine instruction from the Mouth Of God ...not the from mouth of Egypt.. your Masonic thinking is the complete oppostie of Gods word...and that is one big contradiction concerning the Holy Bible

The fact is, God's truth is timeless. If it was God's truth when Jesus stated it, then it has always been God's truth, and as such, was apprehended by Egyptian writers long before Jesus stated it to the people of Israel.

Again your Masonic thinking proven wrong.... Gods truth is what brought freedom to the children of Israel .....God did not command Israel to hold the egyptian writers words as truth...so why would you Rev. ??

Heck, the timeless nature of God's truth is affirmed by Scripture:

Here is the scripture Sir.... Man shall not live on bread alone, but by the words that proceed out of the mouth of God..


Why you're having such a problem wrapping your head around the concept is a mystery.

The only mystery here is why would you trust Egyptian writers of many gods that the God of the Holy Bible commanded you and every christian not to follow... The objective of a christian Reverend or Pastor is to lead the children of God closer to him ...not further ...again your beliefs proven wrong.


Who said "other?" Once again, you are creating things and attributing them to me. For one thing, your use of the plural is in error, since I gave only one example. For another, I never said this was anything "other" than a divine truth, I simply stated that it is divine truth. And such it is. When I preach it, I happen to preach it from either Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 7:12, or Luke 6:31. You seem to be trying to pretend it does not exist there.

You stated other Divine truths Wayne ...dont start forgetting now buddy




The only example I have given, is not "Masonic thinking." I was aware of the appearance of this truth in the various religions of the world, well before ever becoming a Mason. You seem to be stretching here, putting yourself out on a limb in your desperate attempt to make this something "Masonic." I assure you, we could be discussing this same matter on any Christian forum, without even so much as a designated area discussing Freemasonry.

But to answer your question, I don't see how it could possibly "weaken the body of Christ," when you consider how many people there have been through all the centuries since the time of Christ, who have held the same opinion.

Your views have already been proven wrong...simply by your lack of understanding the roles of Israel and Egypt...

By way of contrast, though, I think ghendricks, in his last couple of remarks to you, has touched on behaviors that certainly DO weaken the body of Christ. You'd be wise to take heed.



Interesting comment, coming as it does from someone who has not even bothered to document anything with any quotation from anywhere in Masonry since arriving here, NOT EVEN ONCE.

I have to correct you first wayne and your suppose to be a Reverend...dont make me laugh

Another interesting comment, seeing it comes from one who chimed into a discussion I was having with Mike at the time. . . .

Again Wayne pay attention to the facts...I stared this thread just for you
News flash Im the Author of this thread...

This is exactly the problem im pointing out to you...your not paying attention to key points of information...

Well, not ALL deception. You seem to have neglected to protect yourself against self-deception.

My protection from self decpetion was God leading me out from Masonry and becoming an EX-Mason, I suggest you do the same... until then I will constantly prove you wrong free of charge...
 
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Rev Wayne

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Sorry, Alex, but everything in your response in your post #70 was actually a non-response, in an attempt to avoid the obvious point at which you seem to be stuck for an answer:

The same thing Jesus stated in the "golden rule" has been stated in many places in the sacred writings of many other religions. You stated:

Man shall not live on bread alone, but by the words that proceed out of the mouth of God..
You did so, apparently, without realizing you were making my point precisely.

Since this "proceeded out of the mouth of Jesus";
And since Jesus is God;

These words proceeded out of the mouth of God: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them."

Jesus said this was central, because in it we find "all the law and prophets."

That makes it all the more interesting when we find that it is considered central in other faiths as well.

Confucius answered with it, in response to the question, "Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?"

Roman pagan religion makes the powerful (and apparently true) statement about it that, "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

Hinduism calls it "the sum of duty."

Islam says "no one truly believes" until they believe this truth.

Confucianism calls it "the shortest way to benevolence."

Christianity calls it "the Golden Rule."

Alex stomps on it, treats it like dirt, and tramples it underfoot. Alex, therefore, exhibiting none of the appreciation of it as found in the religions of the world, appears to be of no religion?

Strange--it would seem to me that a statement found in our own religion would be accorded a higher place than that--especially when you consider the importance accorded it by our Lord and Savior.

You seem to think you can uphold a false dichotomy, by accepting it as it comes to us in the Bible, and belittling it when it appears anywhere else--despite the fact that it is the same exact statement.

And you solve nothing, in fact you hurt your own cause irreparably, by refusing to deal honestly with the fact that this truth of God cuts across all boundaries and all religions.
 
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Rev Wayne

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I would stop my debate with you only to witness him dismantle your argument like usual...
Correction:

(1) We have no "debate," because you are not dealing with any intellectual honesty with the simple fact that God's truth as expressed in Jesus' words to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," appears in many of the world's religions, without any hint of derivation. That makes it more than evident that God does not limit revelation to the one religion of Christianity.

Instead of debating that seriously, you spend all your time trying to make the false assertion that I am trying to either assert this from other sources OVER the Bible, or that I am trying to substitue "OTHER truths." You really need to get over it, recognize that it appears elsewhere than just in the Bible, and try to offer us some explanation for how a statement of truth found its way into other sacred books--and did so even BEFORE it was stated by Jesus.

Calling it some "other" truth is purely sophomoric. Anyone can see it's the same statement, and can't be false in one place and true in another.

Your main problem seems to be the fact that this is CLEARLy a divine truth, and you don't wish to deal with the fact that a divine truth appears anywhere other than in the Bible, because you obviously got indoctrinated in a hyper-dogmatic tradition that insists the Bible is the only place you can find any truth.

(2) Mike can't "dismantle" anything "like usual," because (a) he can't dismantle anything anyway, and (2) "like usual" implies that he has done it before, and we all know that isn't true.

by the way I noticed you had no retort to my last post whatsoever
Perhaps if you'd try saying something worth replying to. . .
 
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Wayne said:
Okay, Mike, you wish to label the posting of content from Masonic monitors as "deception."

No, I label your posting of positive content to the exclusion of the negative, in order to mislead readers into thinking that Freemasonry is not a spiritual brotherhood, is "deception" on your part.

Wayne said:
But perhaps you might care to clarify something for us, by posting--from the same type of sources, of course, monitorial--something that will convince us of your claim of a "multiplicity of religions."

The information need not all come solely from monitorial sources. Monitorial content can be buttressed by quotations from prominent Masonic authors. Here are a few examples that state plainly and/or imply, not only a "multiplicity of religions" in Freemasonry, but also that it is a “spiritual brotherhood” of them all.

To the altar of Freemasonry all men bring their most votive offerings. Around it all men, whether they have received their teachings from Confucius, Zoroaster, Moses, Mohammed or the founder of the Christian religion--just so long as they believe in the universality of the fatherhood of God and universality of the brotherhood of man--meet upon a common level. The Jew returns to his synagogue, the Mohammedan to his mosque and the Christian to his temple--each better prepared for the solemn duties of life by the associations in this universal brotherhood.

Grand Lodge of Louisiana Monitor (1980) p. 133

Every Mason must believe in God and in the immortality of the soul. The Volume of Sacred Law must be open on every Lodge Altar. A candidate takes his Obligations upon his knees. Before engaging in any important undertaking a Mason seeks aid and guidance through prayer from the Sovereign Grand Architect of the Universe. This is religion, but it is not a religion. It is faith, but it is not a faith confined to any one creed. It is worship, but it is not a worship chained to any one Altar. In the great words of the First Book of Constitutions it is the religion in which all good men agree. It is the ground which underlies all religions, all churches, and all creeds.

Grand Lodge of Florida (Lodge System of Masonic Education, Booklet 1, pg. 11)

Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions. This is the basis of our universality.

Grand Lodge of Indiana, Indiana Monitor & Freemason's Guide, 1993 Edition, page 41

And here's a few from Albert Mackey, prolific Masonic author, from your very own Grand Lodge of South Carolina. In chapter two of his work, History of Freemasonry, Mackey talks about a number of pagan gods and the nations who worshiped them. On pages 1718 & 1720, he features several drawings of these pagan deities including Ashtaroth, Abraxas, Vishnu, Dagon, Nergal and Baal. Then on page 1721, he explains:

They were all Characters of human origin in the Mythologic ages designed as the "Saviors" of Men, each one emphatically the representative "Christos," or Christ of his particular Nation; and the religious system designed to restore the lost and fallen race of Man.

In discussing all these religions and their "Saviors" Mackey ends this paragraph with the following:

Now as Masons we decide not between these, but take all in as our Brethren, and the One God as our Heavenly Father, revealed to us as such in the Great Light of Masonry.

Mackey does the same with regard to the "sacred" books of all religions; or Masonically speaking the Volume of Sacred Law (VSL):

The Bible is used among Freemasons as a symbol of the will of God, however it may be expressed. Therefore, whatever, to any people, expresses that will may be used as a substitute for the Bible in a Masonic Lodge. Thus in a Lodge consisting entirely of Jews, the Old Testament alone may be placed upon the altar, and Turkish Freemasons make use of the Koran. Whether it be the Gospels to the Christian, the Pentateuch to the Israelite, the Koran to the Muslim, or the Vedas to the Braham, it everywhere Masonically conveys the same idea—that of the symbolism of the Divine Will revealed to man.

Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p. 133

Then on page 147 of the same, Mackey writes:

Masonically, the book of the Law is that sacred book which is believed by the Freemason of any particular religion to contain the revealed will of God; although technically, among the Jews, the Torah, or book of the law means only the Pentateuch or five books of Moses. This to the Christian Freemason, the book of the Law is the Old and New Testament; to the Muslim, the Koran; to the Brahman, the Vedas; and the Parsee, the Zendavest.

If all of this information isn't enough to convince you of the "multiplicity of religions" in Freemasonry, and that it is a "spiritual brotherhood," then I’m convinced that you really never wanted to be convinced.
 
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Sorry, Alex, but everything in your response in your post #70 was actually a non-response, in an attempt to avoid the obvious point at which you seem to be stuck for an answer:

The same thing Jesus stated in the "golden rule" has been stated in many places in the sacred writings of many other religions. You stated:


You did so, apparently, without realizing you were making my point precisely.

Since this "proceeded out of the mouth of Jesus";
And since Jesus is God;

These words proceeded out of the mouth of God: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them."

Jesus said this was central, because in it we find "all the law and prophets."

That makes it all the more interesting when we find that it is considered central in other faiths as well.

Confucius answered with it, in response to the question, "Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?"

Roman pagan religion makes the powerful (and apparently true) statement about it that, "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

Hinduism calls it "the sum of duty."

Islam says "no one truly believes" until they believe this truth.

Confucianism calls it "the shortest way to benevolence."

Christianity calls it "the Golden Rule."

Alex stomps on it, treats it like dirt, and tramples it underfoot. Alex, therefore, exhibiting none of the appreciation of it as found in the religions of the world, appears to be of no religion?

Strange--it would seem to me that a statement found in our own religion would be accorded a higher place than that--especially when you consider the importance accorded it by our Lord and Savior.

You seem to think you can uphold a false dichotomy, by accepting it as it comes to us in the Bible, and belittling it when it appears anywhere else--despite the fact that it is the same exact statement.

And you solve nothing, in fact you hurt your own cause irreparably, by refusing to deal honestly with the fact that this truth of God cuts across all boundaries and all religions.

Wayne you make no sense....all other those other religions are not the same as christianity and of the God of the Holy Bible, your examples of Hiduism and islam are not divine truth.... are you on medication or something...


Divine truth cannot come from Islam or Hiduism ...period...how could you a proclaimed Reverend even attempt to believe that lie....


It's not all the same buddy...and your Masonic lodge and beloved Craft that you practice and defend will never make it hte same ..... it's UNORTHODOX THEOLOGY ...it go's against the teachings of the Holy Bible and the Divine truth of God... JESUS never preached allah mohamed ..or confusius... are you for real ... no christian congregation would follow your leading with that belief... however in masonry men will follow that LIE... so the question is why Wayne why would you follow lies ?? and support Masonry that teaches the lies....


Masonry is not of the God of the Holy Bible ... show me scripture int the Bible that JESUS supports any and every false god religions you listed above....
 
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Rev Wayne

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Jesus was talking about "all the law and prophets" of His religion, NOT "all the law and prophets of all religions;"

Granted, of course. I neither stated nor implied any differently.

which is what you are doing in your futile attempt to reduce all religions down to one common moral theme or idea.


Now you've joined Alex and are trying to put words in my mouth. Where did I say any such thing? I've clearly pointed out, that all religions/sacred books contain SOME truth. What I presented, I presented as evidence of THAT fact, and nothing MORE. And that's the ONLY example I have even tried to introduce, mainly because it's the only one I've examined throughly enough to be able to make such a statement. There are certainly some others that could be mentioned, but they would probably vary from one source to the next--one might have a certain truth, another may not. I do find it interesting, though, that with one truth Jesus taught as central, so much evidence of it can be found in other religions, and so many which ALSO consider it central.

Beyond that, I really haven't tried to establish anything at all, only that certain truths of God can be found in other religions.

I think you guys just find it frustrating that you can't find something blameworthy in what I've said, and feel you must create something to make it look as if I have. You're really out on a limb.

"There is a growing consensus that it is seriously misleading to regard the various religious traditions of the world as variations on a single theme."

Nice quote, but that's not what I've done, nor what I've remotely attempted to do, and you know it. I've simply pointed out that you can't make blanket dismissals of other sacred books by labeling them with one sweep of the hand as "false books," because not everything contained therein can be said to be false. The one example I've given to this point, is a classic example illustrating exactly WHY you cannot.

It is pretty pathetic to watch a seminary-trained, professing Christian pastor try to boil the religions of the world down to a shared ethical concept in order to defend the indefensible.


I can do you one better: it's even MORE pathetic to watch those dedicated to nothing more productive with their time, than to sit around inventing accsations about fellow Christians, when they know good and well they have not done the things they claim.

So in order to prove your point you'd have to distort Christianity and sacrifice the very features that make it unique and appealing in the first place; which ironically, is precisely what Freemasonry does.


You've completely forgotten the starting point of this discussion:

There are three great duties which as a Mason you are charged to inculcate—to God, to your neighbor and to yourself. To God, in never mentioning His name, save with that reverential awe which is due from a creature to his Creator; to implore His aid in all your laudable undertakings, and esteem Him as the chief good. To your neighbor, in acting upon the square, and doing unto him as you would that he should do unto you. And to yourself, in avoiding all irregularities and intemperance which may impair your faculties or debase the dignity of your profession. A zealous attachment to these duties will insure public and private esteem. (Arkansas Monitor, p. 38-39)

As a Mason you are to regard the volume of the Sacred Law as the great light in your profession, to consider it as the unerring standard of truth and justice, and to regulate your actions by the divine precepts it contains. In it you will learn the important duties that you owe to God, your neighbor, and yourself. TO GOD, by never mentioning his name but with that awe and reverence which are due from the creature to his Creator, by imploring his aid in all your lawful undertakings, and by looking up to him in every emergency for comfort and support.
TO YOUR NEIGHBOR, by acting with him upon the square, by rendering him every kind office which justice or mercy may require, by relieving his distresses and soothing his afflictions,and by doing to him as, in similar cases, you would that he should do unto you. And TO YOURSELF, by such a prudent and well-regulated course of discipline as may best conduce to the preservation of your corporeal and mental faculties in their fullest energy, thereby enabling you to exert the talents wherewith God has blest you, as well to his glory as to the welfare of your fellow-creatures. (Arizona Monitor, p. 22-23)

There are three great duties which, as a Mason, you are charged to inculcate to God, your neighbor, and yourself. To God, in never mentioning His name but with that reverential awe which is due from a creature to his Creator; to implore His aid in all your laudable undertakings, and to esteem Him as the chief good.
To your neighbor, in acting upon the square, and doing unto him as you wish he should do unto you. And to yourself, in avoiding all irregularity and intemperance, which may impair your faculties or debase the dignity of your profession. A zealous attachment to these duties will insure public and private esteem. (Maine Blue Book, p. 12-13)

There are three great duties which, as a Mason, you are charged to inculcate—to God, to your neighbor and to yourself. To God, in never mentioning His name but with that reverential awe which is due from a creature to his Creator, to implore His aid in all your laudable undertakings, and esteem Him as the chief good.
To your neighbor, in acting upon the square, and doing unto him as you wish he should do unto you. And to yourself, in avoiding all irregularity and intemperance, which may impair your faculties, or debase the dignity of your profession. A zealous attachment to these duties will insure public and private esteem. (Colorado Monitor, p. 35-36)

There are three great duties which, as a Mason, you are charged to inculcate: to God, your neighbor and yourself. To God, in never mentioning His name, but with that reverential awe which is due from a creature to his Creator; to implore His aid in all your laudable undertakings, and to esteem Him as the chief good.
To your neighbor, in acting upon the square, and doing unto him as you wish he should do unto you. And to yourself, in avoiding all irregularity and intemperance, which may impair your faculties or debase the dignity of your profession. A zealous attachment to these duties will insure public and private esteem. (Georgia Monitor, p. 33)
Not a lodge among these which does not have the Holy Bible as the book residing on its altar. Not only that, the standard in the U.S. is Webb's Monitor. So what does the original look like from Webb himself? Actually, it's even more specific:

Sec. 2.— The Duties of the Members.
The duties of the members of this Lodge are primarily divided into three classes—toward God, their neighbors and themselves.
Toward God-—to respect the name, and exalt the honor of the Grand Master in Heaven, and ever to allude to him with that profound respect due from the creature to the Creator; likewise, to love, honor and obey the Holy Bible, the Word of God, as the only Masonic guide of faith and practice.
Toward their neighbors—to do unto others as in like circumstances they would have others do to them.
Toward themselves-—to avoid all irregularity and intemperance which may impair their faculties or debase the dignity of their profession. (Thomas Smith Webb, The Freemason’s Monitor, p. 285)
 
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Wayne said:
I've clearly pointed out, that all religions/sacred books contain SOME truth. What I presented, I presented as evidence of THAT fact, and nothing MORE. . . I do find it interesting, though, that with one truth Jesus taught as central, so much evidence of it can be found in other religions, and so many which ALSO consider it central.

Beyond that, I really haven't tried to establish anything at all, only that certain truths of God can be found in other religions.

I think you guys just find it frustrating that you can't find something blameworthy in what I've said, and feel you must create something to make it look as if I have.

Wayne, you are an educated man and a professing Christian. You should know better than to make a statement or claim, stop there, and ignore the implications that naturally flow from such claims. We have NOT created something to make it look as if you created it. You created it on your own.

To indicate that there are "SOME truth" in all religions is a moot point. What you are hanging your hat on is a common "ethical" theme you've identified in all religions. But as I indicated earlier, the ethics of any religion is inextricably tied to its theology. If their theology is flawed from a biblical perspective, their ethics are really of no value; because they are "motivated by, and grounded in, fundamentally different views of the nature of reality. Religion cannot be reduced simply to ethics, for religion makes claims about the ultimate nature of reality (metaphysics), to which their ethics appeal for justification."

We can agree that some common ground with other religions can be found when it comes to secondary issues, like the ethics of the "Golden Rule." But we can't do so while ignoring the conflict and irreconcilable differences when it comes to the larger, more important issues of ultimate truth, reality, and salvation (Samples).

You keep stressing the "Golden Rule" as found in other religions; even to the point of attacking anyone who challenges you on the implications of just leaving it at that. But again, you can't just leave it at that, for as Berkeley professor Huston Smith, clearly indicates:

"For as soon as [the notion of sameness] moves beyond vague generalities––'every religion has some version of the Golden Rule'––it founders on the fact that the religions differ in what they consider essential and nonnegotiable."

Wayne said:
You've completely forgotten the starting point of this discussion

No I did not, since it was me who started the point of discussion in the first place; which is the fact that Freemasonry is a spiritual brotherhood. Anyone can go back to our last 3 or 4 posts and see that is precisely what I brought up at the time. And your immediate response to that point, ever since, has been your futile attempt to refute that fact with the principle of the "Golden Rule," which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Freemasonry being spirtual brotherhood of men united from all religions.

You created this 'red herring' deliberately to distract the discussion away from the point I was making; and you know it. And since you seem to insist on continuing to ignore my claim in favor of your red herring, this conversation has ended.
 
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