the CHARISMATIC / PENTECOSTAL PREACHER

[murjahel]

open for comments and discussion... of that teaching thread called
CHARISMATIC / PENTECOSTAL PREACHER

here is the link to the original thread of teaching...

www.christianforums.com/t7826499/

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

open for comments and discussion... of that teaching thread called
CHARISMATIC / PENTECOSTAL PREACHER

I don't see a teaching thread by that title

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Oops, I see it now murjahel

 

[geetrue]

I have always had a hard time with understanding some of the words in the verse you quoted;

Ephesians 6:10(KJV)
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

and again in:
Ephesians 6:13(KJV)

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

The words finally and then the words having done all you can to stand?

Like we are suppose to run out of options on our own ... ?

So I just put on the full armor of God every morning before I stumble

 

[Andrea411]

Thank you for the posts on women preachers. I only wish it were on it own. I think the church has hindered the gospel for way too long by side lining half the congregation.
Thanks for the thread, enjoyed it. God bless, andrea

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Thank you for the posts on women preachers. I only wish it were on it own. I think the church has hindered the gospel for way too long by side lining half the congregation.
Thanks for the thread, enjoyed it. God bless, andrea

Respectfully I disagree... in part.

True, most churches have not allowed women pastors or preachers. Some still don't. But that's not hindering the gospel.

You not sharing the gospel with your coworkers or family, that is hindering the gospel. The mentality that the gospel is only shared on sundays from behind a pulpit is wrong. Not saying that's what you meant, but still the premise of your statement that churches have hindered the gospel because of not allowing women preachers is wrong.

 

[mourningdove~]

Thank you for the posts on women preachers. I only wish it were on it own. I think the church has hindered the gospel for way too long by side lining half the congregation.

I agree. Some women are more gifted preachers, and teachers, than are some men, but the fact that they are 'women' often holds them back from moving fully in their gifting, if in it at all.

 

[turned around]

Hi,
Titus 2:3-5.

Grace to you.

 

[turned around]

Hi,
Hate to bear the negative, the apostle Paul had a view points on woman in ministry. Pretty hard to explain away.

Grace to you.

 

[Truthfrees]

murjahel,

Your teaching on women preachers is commendable.

It flies in the face of traditional ideas, but you have scripture to back what you say.

Good job.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Thank you for the posts on women preachers. I only wish it were on it own. I think the church has hindered the gospel for way too long by side lining half the congregation.
Thanks for the thread, enjoyed it. God bless, andrea

As the OP referred to 'preachers' in the same vein as 'pastor/teachers' then it is not correct that women should be preachers.

Women can teach other women and all are to tell the gospel of salvation, but a 'pastor/teacher' is an office specifically for men, as per the Word of God.

1 Timothy 2:11-14
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Ephesians 5:22-27
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, bas to the Lord. 23 For cthe husband is the head of the wife even as dChrist is the head of the church, his body, and is ehimself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

25 gHusbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and hgave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by ithe washing of water jwith the word, 27 so kthat he might present the church to himself in splendor, lwithout spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish."

 

[murjahel]

1 Timothy 2:11-14
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

"

I Timothy 2:11-12
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

This passage in Timothy also refers to the same situation as I Corinthians 14:34-35. The women were not to interrupt the sermon with talking out loud to their husbands.

The word "subjection" is from the Greek word "hupotage" which means "a voluntary yielding in love."

There is a time for women to question their husband about the sermon. In love and respect for the service and for the husband, the wife should voluntarily wait. They were also not to not argue with the man's interpretation of the sermon during the service. This in no way lessens her equality, it only emphasizes a restraint of embarrassing a mate in public by flaunting her equality. It also was to encourage her to respect the sanctity of the service.

This new found freedom in Christianity had now allowed a woman to disagree with her husband. Sometimes, in a service there was probably a desire of the wife to say - "I told you so!" She may want to teach her husband something she had learned before he had.

Paul simply instructs the woman not to "usurp authority" over the man, but to silently listen. The Greek word for "usurp authority" is the word - authenteo" which means "to exercise one's power over..."

In Christianity, the wife does have "power", and she can exercise it to question the husband, and to even teach the husband. The translators were all men, and questionably translated this Greek word improperly.
A whole different meaning is found in the original word. It shows that women have an "authority" to speak their mind, and have an opinion different from the husband's. Paul is not removing the authority from the woman, that Christianity had given her. No! Rather he is only saying that she should not exercise that power in the middle of his sermon.

 

[turned around]

Hi,
Suffer not to teach(allow). Hate to be a stickler. Paul had this authority from Christ to pen this.

Grace to you.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I Timothy 2:11-12
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

This passage in Timothy also refers to the same situation as I Corinthians 14:34-35. The women were not to interrupt the sermon with talking out loud to their husbands.

The word "subjection" is from the Greek word "hupotage" which means "a voluntary yielding in love."

There is a time for women to question their husband about the sermon. In love and respect for the service and for the husband, the wife should voluntarily wait. They were also not to not argue with the man's interpretation of the sermon during the service. This in no way lessens her equality, it only emphasizes a restraint of embarrassing a mate in public by flaunting her equality. It also was to encourage her to respect the sanctity of the service.

This new found freedom in Christianity had now allowed a woman to disagree with her husband. Sometimes, in a service there was probably a desire of the wife to say - "I told you so!" She may want to teach her husband something she had learned before he had.

Paul simply instructs the woman not to "usurp authority" over the man, but to silently listen. The Greek word for "usurp authority" is the word - authenteo" which means "to exercise one's power over..."

In Christianity, the wife does have "power", and she can exercise it to question the husband, and to even teach the husband. The translators were all men, and questionably translated this Greek word improperly.
A whole different meaning is found in the original word. It shows that women have an "authority" to speak their mind, and have an opinion different from the husband's. Paul is not removing the authority from the woman, that Christianity had given her. No! Rather he is only saying that she should not exercise that power in the middle of his sermon.

I respectfully disagree.

You did not address the specific phrase (below). It is very direct and not open to interpretation.

1 Timothy 2:12
"But I suffer not a woman to teach"

Later in the following verses seems to bring clarification as to why God chose to not allow women to be 'pastor/teachers', because it was the woman was formed after the man and because it was the woman who was betrayed by the serpent.

1 Timothy 2:14
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

 

[murjahel]

As the OP referred to 'preachers' in the same vein as 'pastor/teachers' then it is not correct that women should be preachers.

Women can teach other women and all are to tell the gospel of salvation, but a 'pastor/teacher' is an office specifically for men, as per the Word of God.

]Ephesians 4:11-12
"AND HE GAVE SOME, APOSTLES; AND SOME, PROPHETS; AND SOME, EVANGELISTS; AND SOME, PASTORS AND TEACHERS; FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST."

The word 'some' divides these ministry gifts into four categories, not five. The gift of 'pastor/teacher' is one gift.

It comes from the Greek: poimen (G4166) translated "pastor" only here, but "shepherd" 16 times ...
and the word didaskalos which is translated Master (Jesus) 40 times, teacher 10 times, master 7 times, and doctor 1 time... It refers to an instructor, doctor, master, teacher.


GIFT OF PASTOR-TEACHER

This is one gift, not two. The description of it takes two words to explain. The word, "pastor", means "to shepherd." The elders were all to be shepherds of the "flock." (Acts 20:28-31, I Peter 5:1-5) This word -"pastor" - shows that the elder is to have the God-given ability to feed, lead, and give heed to the church.

The second word, "teacher", means that the person is to be divinely equipped to prepare and serve a balanced, nutritious, and spiritual diet.

Every believer is a priest, but some are called to have the "pastor-teacher gift." They are to aid in the leading and feeding the flock.

Elders were to "shepherd the flock" (Acts 20:28, I Pet. 5:1-4). They were not to "lord" over the flock, but to be "examples" to them. This was a position of leading by example and love. Too many, in that day and this day also, try to make the leaders of the church a superior class of Christian. They want almost a priesthood, to "lord" over the laity. This was the doctrine of the "Nicolaitanes" referred to in Revelation chapters 2 and 3. The Lord said He hated this doctrine. We are all "priests" to God. The elders were in leadership of the facilities, outreach, and serving of the priesthood. They were not the "bosses" of the flock. Only the Jesus is our "Lord."

Elders were to be "able to teach" (I Tim. 3:2). The early church had a plurality of elders in the local churches (Acts 14:23, 20:17, I Peter 5:1-4). One of them may be elected to head the church, but many "pastor-teachers" are needed in the church. Some teach, some will edify or exhort others in other positions in the church.

Paul said that he was a "pastor-teacher." He described this gift in I Thessalonians 2:7-12:
"GENTLE...AS A NURSING MOTHER...FOND AFFECTION IN LABOR AND HARDSHIP...WORKING NIGHT AND DAY...DEVOUT, UPRIGHTLY, BLAMELESSLY WE BEHAVED...EXHORTING, ENCOURAGING, IMPLORING...AS A FATHER...SO YOU MAY WALK IN A MANNER WORTHY OF GOD..."

So, the gift has a feminine side, and a masculine side... It is not limited to men, it is open, as are the other gifts, to both genders... The four daughters of Philip had the gift of prophecy... and definitely were female... so in the gift of pastor/teacher, there are many women who have filled that role and been anointed and blessed of God.

 

[murjahel]

I respectfully disagree.

You did not address the specific phrase (below). It is very direct and not open to interpretation.

1 Timothy 2:12
"But I suffer not a woman to teach"

Later in the following verses seems to bring clarification as to why God chose to not allow women to be 'pastor/teachers', because it was the woman was formed after the man and because it was the woman who was betrayed by the serpent.

1 Timothy 2:14
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

If women are not allowed to 'teach' what are you doing here addressing me with teaching???? LOL

Well, I will allow you, since I do not hold your interpretation of that passage... The vs in I Timothy, where Adam and Eve are discussed, please refer back to that part of the teaching... for it was Adam that was more shamed in that vs than Eve... she was 'deceived' into sin, he sinned knowing it was sin... his sin was greater...

Some use I Timothy 2:10-15, saying that there it shows Eve had the greater wrong in the garden, and women ever since are being punished by not being allowed to preach.

They justify their exclusion of women as being based on that passage.

They misconstrue some words, they miss the whole point of that passage.

There are many wrong suppositions, some statements totally in conflict with Bible passages in that explanation.

This says that Adam ‘was not deceived’.
In other words he sinned knowingly.

Eve was ‘deceived’ and sinned in ignorance of the full import of what she was doing.

The word ‘deceived’ used of Adam and Eve is the same, it is the Greek word, apatao meaning to beguile, to deceive, to delude. Adam was not ‘deluded’, Eve was ‘deluded’.

2 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV)
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled (exapatao, wholly deluded) Eve through his subtility (panorgia, trickery, craftiness), so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The Bible is very clear that Eve sinned in deception, but Adam was not deceived, not deluded. He sinned knowingly. That is why the Bible speaks firmly about the guilt of the sin being more on Adam than on Eve.

So, to say all women now are punished with not being able to preach or pastor due to Eve being fooled by the devil, is wrong... why not punish Adam more then, for his sin was greater... He had directly heard God tell him not to eat, no devil fooled him on what was said, he heard his wife say 'eat' and he did... knowing he was disobeying God... So, maybe, if we are going to punish someone more by not letting them preach and pastor, we need to make all men step aside and let women take over totally... LOL

 

[Andrea411]

Respectfully I disagree... in part.

True, most churches have not allowed women pastors or preachers. Some still don't. But that's not hindering the gospel.

You not sharing the gospel with your coworkers or family, that is hindering the gospel. The mentality that the gospel is only shared on sundays from behind a pulpit is wrong. Not saying that's what you meant, but still the premise of your statement that churches have hindered the gospel because of not allowing women preachers is wrong.

I know too many women who said the Lord called them to the mission field who were told by their church that the Lord doesn't call women...

so I disagree... the church has hindered the gospel by hamstringing 50% of their congregation that my have gone out to all the world.

 

[Andrea411]

If the correct interpretation of Tim 2:12 is what has been historically used than women are saved due to childbirth.... I ask that men re-look at these scriptures and take into consideration the fact that they were transcribed by men who couldn't imagine a woman having the same value as a man....

Might this have been for one particular woman?

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

]
This is one gift, not two. The description of it takes two words to explain.

I used it as one word, putting a backslash between the two words to connect them, 'pastor/teacher'.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

]
Paul said that he was a "pastor-teacher." He described this gift in I Thessalonians 2:7-12:
"GENTLE...AS A NURSING MOTHER...FOND AFFECTION IN LABOR AND HARDSHIP...WORKING NIGHT AND DAY...DEVOUT, UPRIGHTLY, BLAMELESSLY WE BEHAVED...EXHORTING, ENCOURAGING, IMPLORING...AS A FATHER...SO YOU MAY WALK IN A MANNER WORTHY OF GOD..."

So, the gift has a feminine side, and a masculine side... It is not limited to men, it is open, as are the other gifts, to both genders... The four daughters of Philip had the gift of prophecy... and definitely were female... so in the gift of pastor/teacher, there are many women who have filled that role and been anointed and blessed of God.

This is the KJV of the verses you used above:

Thessalonians 2:7-9
"But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children: So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us. For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail:for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God"


This is used to describe how they felt in this situation. There is no mention of women at all, much less women in ministry.

The gift of prophecy is for both genders, male and female. This is not the case for 'pastor/teacher'.