The ancient Celtic Church

[CelticRebel]

As I promised, here are some links. I would suggest a thorough reading of these. They show ways the Celtic Church differed from Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy:

ARCWP - Resources - Articles

A quote from this article:

"In "Meehan, Praying with Celtic Holy Women," I wrote that The Irish Life of Brigit describes the episcopal ordination of St. Brigit of Kildare by Bishop Mel of Ardagh in fifth century Ireland.

The evidence in the Celtic Church indicates that women and men were equals in preaching the Gospel, presiding at Mass and at the other sacraments. Historian Peter Ellis wrote that in the sixth century, three Roman bishops at Tours wrote a letter to two Breton priests Lovocat and Cathern, expressing their outrage that women were allowed to preside at Eucharist. "You celebrate the divine sacrifice of the Mass with the assistance of women to whom you give the name conhospitae (monasteries where men and women lived together and raised their children in the service of Chris) ...While you distribute the eucharist, they take the chalice and administer the blood of Christ to the people... Renounce these abuses...!"

In mixed-gender monasteries, men and women worked as equals. However, the overall authority within a double monastery often resided with an abbess. St. Brigit selected Conleth to help her administer Kildare, and they governed "their church by a mutual, happy alliance."

The tradition of a Christian seeking a spiritual guide, mentor or "soul friend" was a prevalent Celtic custom. Women as well as men served as spiritual friends. This custom eventually influenced the entire Church and led to the institutionalizing of private confession. There are stories of spiritual seekers coming to Saint Ita and Saint Samthann to reveal their sins and to receive forgiveness and guidance."


Fall of the Druidesses

St. Brigid

Celtic Christianity

Christian Prayer and Worship Resources - Celtic influence today

Brigit of Kildare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As I promised, here are some links. I would suggest a thorough reading of these. They show ways the Celtic Church differed from Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy:

ARCWP - Resources - Articles

A quote from this article:

"In "Meehan, Praying with Celtic Holy Women," I wrote that The Irish Life of Brigit describes the episcopal ordination of St. Brigit of Kildare by Bishop Mel of Ardagh in fifth century Ireland.

The evidence in the Celtic Church indicates that women and men were equals in preaching the Gospel, presiding at Mass and at the other sacraments. Historian Peter Ellis wrote that in the sixth century, three Roman bishops at Tours wrote a letter to two Breton priests Lovocat and Cathern, expressing their outrage that women were allowed to preside at Eucharist. "You celebrate the divine sacrifice of the Mass with the assistance of women to whom you give the name conhospitae (monasteries where men and women lived together and raised their children in the service of Chris) ...While you distribute the eucharist, they take the chalice and administer the blood of Christ to the people... Renounce these abuses...!"

In mixed-gender monasteries, men and women worked as equals. However, the overall authority within a double monastery often resided with an abbess. St. Brigit selected Conleth to help her administer Kildare, and they governed "their church by a mutual, happy alliance."

The tradition of a Christian seeking a spiritual guide, mentor or "soul friend" was a prevalent Celtic custom. Women as well as men served as spiritual friends. This custom eventually influenced the entire Church and led to the institutionalizing of private confession. There are stories of spiritual seekers coming to Saint Ita and Saint Samthann to reveal their sins and to receive forgiveness and guidance."


Fall of the Druidesses

St. Brigid

Celtic Christianity

Christian Prayer and Worship Resources - Celtic influence today

Brigit of Kildare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the event it was not noted already...

When someone claims to not be Orthodox on the forum and wishes to debate or not promote Orthodox thought consistently, it is not really allowed on the boards and You would need to place these within St. Justin's if wanting to have an actual debate on the issue of the Celtic Church - and addressing in-depth what is claimed to be the Celtic Church (which is really Evangelicalism and Protestant leaning at several points picking up practices from the Celts) and seeing the Celtic Church as St. Patrick and other saints noted it to be when it came to documented practices - and many of these have actually been brought up on the forum before...

Concerning the Celtic Church's relation to Orthodoxy of which it was an expression of, as said before:

There are two groups within the realm of Celtic history. The first has relied on "classic" sources from Greeks, Romans, and Christian opponents of paganism . The other, a more recent movement, has challenged these "classic" sources, claiming that biases against an enemy culture may have muddled objective truth. I don't subscribe to either camp. I only wanted to draw awareness to the reality that there is a lack of concensus regarding the subject.

Britain was also interesting because while the Schism happened in 1054, being an island, Britain was isolated from Rome's influence, and many English and Celtic saints were martyred by the Normans after the conquest.

What's with the supposed 'Celtic' churches lately? I was reading the other day about the Celtic Catholic Church, which has nothing to do with the Celts or Catholics, it is based out of Hawai'i.

The Church in England (and the Brittish Isles for that matter) was Orthodox until the Norman Invasion in 1066. Roman Catholicism is not the native form of Christianity to the Brittish Isles, but rather Orthodoxy is. There were many, many similarities between the pre-Roman Celtic Church and the Coptic Church of Egypt as is very evident from the similarities between Celtic and Coptic Iconography. This fact does not justify the existence of groups who claim to be Celtic and Apostolic, but it does help explain some of their rationale.

Sorry to bump this one - but I've just found a bit more about them

Try these links

HOLY TRINITY CELTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH - HOME OF TRUE ORTHODOXY

now having a wee browse there will lead you to a stack of piccies

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/altar22.jpg

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/altar_close_up.jpg

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/little_entrance_table.jpg

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/tapestry.jpg

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/infant_of_prague.jpg

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/building.jpg

Amazon.com: A Brief History of the Druids (Brief History): Peter Berresford Ellis: Books I highly recommend this book.

Although more could be said on the issue, I thought this was an excellent summation on the book:

​

Basing his arguments on monastic rules, lives of Saints, manuscript illuminations, ecclesiastical architecture, and liturgical texts, Father Gregory presented a very compelling case for the Eastern origins of the distinctively Celtic form of monastic life - showing the many striking similarities between the world of the Desert Fathers and the ancient world of Irish Orthodox Christianity, deeply saturated by the monastic ideal.

The issue is fascinating to consider when it comes to others such as St. Patrick (who I had to study for a project coming up) and the ways that he was very much alone in the desert of where he was ....and yet he literally made it into something more even as he was outside the world where Christianity/the Church developed.

How the Celts Saved Britain - A New Civilization - YouTube
How The Celts Saved Britain - Dark Ages and the Celts
Meet the Real St. Patrick - YouTube​

historically there was the reality that both Rome and Constantinople were in hot pursuit of both commercial interest and ecclesiastical supremacy in the British Isles (As Ireland was never part of the Roman Empire )- leading to the British Isles being a crossroads for the East and the West on many levels.

Nonetheless, when seeing the ways that the Lord has operated within that culture, I cannot help but wonder if there is any real reason for concern or having suspicion on Celtic Orthodoxy when many saints - be it St. Patrick, St. Kevin of Glendalough, St. Oran (who was the first Irish martyr -- St. Patrick's charioteer ) the Voyage of St. Brendan, the life of St. Colum Cille/Columba (iirc) or the history of Iona (another St. Oran there -- better known for the Irish expression "throw mud in the mouth of St. Oran") - and wonderful developments have occurred (more shared here and here and here).

I recall hearing from one priest that Celtic Spirituality is something you want to stay away from since so much of it is nebulous - even though I've found (in studying St. Patrick and the Irish Orthodox Church) that a lot of it is quite sound - and when it comes to identification, much of it has resonated with me. I understood a lot of his concerns when it comes to a lot of things done in the name of Celtic Spirituality from the Emergent/Emerging Church.

That I'm definitely against - but I don't know about the issue many have with the Western Orthodox Church. One of my EO friends - when I spoke to them on the issue - noted "I'm not "up" on more recent expressions of Celtic spirituality -- perhaps that is what he's referring to ? The more ancient form (Patrick's time until the schism) is thought among not a few EO to be valid and just "part of us"

.... The early Celtic Church has been accepted as "Orthodox" for (as far as I know) decades at least and there's a British site with extensive information on Celtic and early British Orthodoxy - more at British & Celtic Orthodoxy - and for other places, one can go to

"Saint Patrick - Orthodox Missionary to the Irish People - All"​

[/COLOR][/LEFT][/SIZE][/FONT] ). Other places to investigate are Scotland the Brave - Orthodox Canada - A Journal of Canada and AngloSaxon & Celtic Orthodoxy: The Varangian Guard- The Vikings in Byzantine.


I think that what may've been the case was a confusion of terms - in the same way others say "The Charismatic movement is dangerous" (with a certain aspect in mind) and yet not considering where other Charismatics have been well aware of/avoiding of the dangers others have done......and the same with things like avoiding the New Apostolic Reformation (with people like Dutch Sheets or Chuck Pierce - the same folks who approved of the Todd Bently gig, had the Triumphalism ideology and pushed forward with the Dominionist mindset of voting for Sarah Palin who was like Esther ) - and then not realizing that not everyone is like that. And in that sense, when many in the Protestant world try to recreate a lot of the things done in Celtic Spirituality or the Celtic Church - in the same way it's done in camps like International House of Prayer or Emergent Churches (in an artificial sense and reinventing the Wheel ) - then it becomes problematic. Other organizations that have sought to address this (or similar issues ) are places such as Primitivism and Restorationism as Orthodoxy’s Siren Call | Red River Orthodox ( Eastern Christianities Engaging "the West") - or here in the following:

• The Celtic Monk: The uniqueness of Celtic Monasticism

• Reconstructing Celtic Spirituality: Searching for a Western Early Church - The British Orthodox Church

• ST. DAVID OF WALES, THE CELTIC CHURCHES AND EASTERN ORTHODOXY

Is there anything with the poem shared that others were either blessed by or perplexed by? Additionally, as it concerns Celtic Orthodoxy, are there things within it that those outside of it are either thankful for or wary on? If anyone has any thoughts, I'd greatly appreciate it! Shalom...

the Celtic take on Orthodox spirituality is an interesting one. reminds me of St Patrick's Breastplate.

As it concerns kinship between the Celtic faith and even aspects of paganism, it is interesting to see how much it seems to bring back the concept of how the world itself was not meant to be seen as evil. It has been corrupted in differing ways, yes - but as it concerns interconnections, we're part of it and not all things that did not come already within a Christological package were inherently against Christ in the foundations.

• The Church of the Gauls – Part 1 | Celtic Orthodoxy

• The Church of the Gauls – Part 2 | Celtic Orthodoxy

• A N G L A N D I C U S: Oriental Influences in the Early Irish Church

• AngloSaxon & Celtic Orthodoxy: Celtic Monasticism,by Hieromonk Ambrose (fr. Aleksey Young)

Forgot to add this earlier after going back over one very excellent presentation I had checked out long ago - as seen here:

• Is Orthodoxy Eastern? | Orthodox-Reformed Bridge

• Is St. Patrick an Orthodox Saint? | Orthodox-Reformed Bridge

​

 

[ArmyMatt]

the only thing that clashes with Orthodoxy that I saw is the claim that St Brigid was a bishop. none of the sources actually quote her life directly from the Synaxarion. and I know many Orthodox who have come to Orthodoxy via Celtic spirituality, and this is the first time I have ever heard her called a bishop or say she was. there might have been honors that a Celtic Orthodox abbess may have had that to modern eyes would look like she was ordained.

but aside from that, nothing on there that I saw clashes with our theology.

 

[Dewi Sant]

As one who has recently earned a first class award in his study of Celtic Christianity, while studying in a famed academic institution in Wales surrounded by experts, I give a one word response: 'no'.


The principal difficulty in assessing the 'Celtic' church[es] in the British Isles is discerning popular interpretations from academically achieved traceable fact.

When reading something as culturally loaded as religion it is important to progress one's knowledge gradually rather than following lines which fulfil one's own hypothesis.


Okay.

Regarding Brigit and the Episcopate.
One must remember the governance of the Irish Church was distinct from continental forms Christianity. The Abbess would have juridical power of economy and spiritual guidance over the monastic house and its estates. Mitres and staffs are not an solely episcopal vestment. Practically speaking, an Abbess would be the parent of the community but without the ministry of the Bishop. The Bishop is the Ordinary of the Mass (thus why a priest is termed 'vicar'). The eucharistic ministry of the church would be fulfilled by either a bishop or one whom the bishop has appointed to offer eucharist in his stead.

 

[SeventhValley]

the only thing that clashes with Orthodoxy that I saw is the claim that St Brigid was a bishop. none of the sources actually quote her life directly from the Synaxarion. and I know many Orthodox who have come to Orthodoxy via Celtic spirituality, and this is the first time I have ever heard her called a bishop or say she was. there might have been honors that a Celtic Orthodox abbess may have had that to modern eyes would look like she was ordained.

but aside from that, nothing on there that I saw clashes with our theology.

She was not even real as she was most likely pagan deity that was Christianized.

The Celtic church is technically the Catholic church now as Rome was/is it's patriarch.

 

[jckstraw72]

She was not even real as she was most likely pagan deity that was Christianized.

The Celtic church is technically the Catholic church now as Rome was/is it's patriarch.

come now. the Church doesn't celebrate imaginary Saints. we don't buy into such hogwash.

 

[SeventhValley]

From what I have read sites associated with her are ancient pagan Bridget sites. There is the possibility a pagan named after the goddess became Bridget and co-opted her sites but Christianization of deities is a way to win over a society.

 

[CelticRebel]

Gxg, I didn't post the links to start a debate or an argument. I posted them because of a request.

 

[Cappadocious]

I am skeptical of these historical claims.

 

[CelticRebel]

I am skeptical of these historical claims.

Skepticism is not a bad thing. When I lost the faith I was raised in and became briefly an agnostic, I was skeptical about everything. I was passionate about learning the truth, the facts. I don't have all of the truth; no one does.

 

[ArmyMatt]

From what I have read sites associated with her are ancient pagan Bridget sites. There is the possibility a pagan named after the goddess became Bridget and co-opted her sites but Christianization of deities is a way to win over a society.

Christianization of deities? since we only claim one God, it'd be kinda hard to to that. there was a human St Brigit, probably named after the goddess because of the culture like St Dionysius.

 

[prodromos]

Christianization of deities? since we only claim one God, it'd be kinda hard to to that. there was a human St Brigit, probably named after the goddess because of the culture like St Dionysius.

There were many Christian martyrs with the names of pagan deities. I've come across a couple of St Aris, St Hercules, St Hera, etc. Many of these were catechumens who would have likely taken on a new name on their baptism, though not necessarily.

 

[prodromos]

the only thing that clashes with Orthodoxy that I saw is the claim that St Brigid was a bishop. none of the sources actually quote her life directly from the Synaxarion. and I know many Orthodox who have come to Orthodoxy via Celtic spirituality, and this is the first time I have ever heard her called a bishop or say she was. there might have been honors that a Celtic Orthodox abbess may have had that to modern eyes would look like she was ordained.

According to Fr Ambrose who some of you may remember from CA (also known as Irish Hermit on OC.net) she was ordained by a visiting bishop who had had a bit too much of the abbey's local beverage. In any case I believe ordination to bishophood requires at least two or three bishops except under exceptional circumstances. I believe Celtic bishops were present at some of the Ecumenical councils.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

.. there was a human St Brigit, probably named after the goddess because of the culture like St Dionysius.

• AngloSaxon & Celtic Orthodoxy: St. Ita, foster-mother to the saints of Ireland

• Saint Brigid of Kildare

• Saint Brigid of Kildare

We know that St. Brigid was born to a pagan chieftain and one of his Christian slaves and it makes sense that she was named Brigid, perhaps to obtain the blessings of the goddess, as she eventually became a priestess of Brid at a pagan sanctuary

 

[Dewi Sant]

.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There were many Christian martyrs with the names of pagan deities. I've come across a couple of St Aris, St Hercules, St Hera, etc. Many of these were catechumens who would have likely taken on a new name on their baptism, though not necessarily.

thanks, that post was mostly about the idea that St Brigit was merely a pagan goddess that the Church grafted. thanks for the other examples!

 

[ArmyMatt]

According to Fr Ambrose who some of you may remember from CA (also known as Irish Hermit on OC.net) she was ordained by a visiting bishop who had had a bit too much of the abbey's local beverage. In any case I believe ordination to bishophood requires at least two or three bishops except under exceptional circumstances. I believe Celtic bishops were present at some of the Ecumenical councils.

so translation is that it was an illegit consecration at best if true

 

[RileyG]

She was not even real as she was most likely pagan deity that was Christianized.

The Celtic church is technically the Catholic church now as Rome was/is it's patriarch.

St. Brigit of Ireland. She is NOT the same as the Irish Goddess.

I think you are confusing those two.

 

[Yeznik]

There are relations, in the early centuries, between the Armenian Church and the Celtic Church. Armenian monks were sent there. According to the Oriental Armenologist, Martiros Kavoukjian, the original homeland of the Celts was by Lake Sevan. Here is one of his books in English:

http://www.amazon.com/Armenia-Subartu-Sumer-Indo-European-Mesopotamia/dp/0921885008

Additionally, the Celtic knot work and stone crosses are a direct cultural relation to their Armenian cousins.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There are relations, in the early centuries, between the Armenian Church and the Celtic Church. Armenian monks were sent there. According to the Oriental Armenologist, Martiros Kavoukjian, the original homeland of the Celts was by Lake Sevan. Here is one of his books in English:

Armenia, Subartu, and Sumer: The Indo-European homeland and ancient Mesopotamia: Martiros Kavoukjian: 9780921885009: Amazon.com: Books

Additionally, the Celtic knot work and stone crosses are a direct cultural relation to their Armenian cousins.

Wow - had no idea about that one, but will definitely have to look up the book and study