That's an odd strategy for Trump...

[variant]

But the people who are confused as to what conservatives are mad about are moderates and liberals, and there's nothing to indicate that there's much of a chance of them voting for him over Biden.

I think this is untrue. Conservatives when asked to define woke have had quite a bit of trouble with it.

This woman was giving an interview after literally publishing a book in the anti-woke genre:

I'd say it's likely that the idea being vacuous and ill defined is quite common.

Trump has simply noticed.

Whether left & center-left people think he's slightly less terrible on that issue than DeSantis doesn't really help him at all in that regard. It still seems like one of those "a lot to lose, little to gain" situations.

The polling talks to everyone, and it indicates that the messaging is bad.

You aren't going to win an election by alienating 2/3rds of the population with conservative doublespeak.

Trump can win outright by making Desantis look like the cheap suit he is.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I think this is untrue. Conservatives when asked to define woke have had quite a bit of trouble with it.

Well, in some ways, I think it resembles the attitudes people used to have with regards to "adult content" (since the p-word gets replaced) famously coined by Potter Stewart

"I can't explicitly define it, but I know it when I see it"


I provided a definition of it earlier that I think fits (with regards to what conservatives mean when they say it), which was simply "weaponized political correctness"


But, I don't think word "woke" is unique in the realm of using semantically overloaded or vague words or phrases in the political realm.

I would think that you could probably find a lot of folks on both sides who, if you put them on the spot, probably couldn't come up with a precise elegant definition of an expression they may use quite a bit.

An example that stands out from the left side would be the use of "ultra-MAGA"...that was another one where you had people using it a lot there for a while, but that people (even in the Democratic party) were divided on because there really isn't a clearly defined, succinct sentence to sum up what it means, but everyone pretty much knew that when someone said it, they were simply referring to "extreme pro-Trump" and it was used to refer to everything from "lowering taxes for the uber rich" to "draconian immigration policies" to "extreme right-wing positions on abortion and other social issues"

 

[variant]

Well, in some ways, I think it resembles the attitudes people used to have with regards to "adult content" (since the p-word gets replaced) famously coined by Potter Stewart

"I can't explicitly define it, but I know it when I see it"

I provided a definition of it earlier that I think fits (with regards to what conservatives mean when they say it), which was simply "weaponized political correctness"

You could just say that, and you would be being MUCH clearer on what you mean.

Otherwise you'd have to compete with all the other (conservative) definitions:

Wokeism’s natural logic is to destroy the lives of people of both genders, of all races, and—if need be—those of every age, all to leverage an otherwise unworkable ideological agenda. It is nihilist and destroys everything it touches. It tears apart foes and friends alike, whether by fueling media-driven hatred of Donald Trump or faux-deification of the disaster that is now Joe Biden.

Wokeism Is a Cruel and Dangerous Cult: Wokeism's natural logic is to destroy the lives of people of both genders, of all races, andif need beof those of every age, all to leverage an otherwise unworkable ideological agenda. | Victor Davis Hanson

Thousands who live near the Mexican border see their homes and farms overrun with drug traffickers--and during a pandemic thousands of unvaccinated and possibly sick illegal aliens.

www.independent.org

The definition from the novelist already posted:

A radical belief system suggesting that our institutions are built around discrimination, and claiming that all disparity is a result of that discrimination. It seeks a radical redefinition of society in which equality of group result is the endpoint, enforced by an angry mob.

Or from the same article:

I can define "woke" in 15 seconds. It's a flawed ideology of social justice and radical social transformation that blames the woes of minorities on white people and, in particular, white men. It promotes identity politics to demonstrate one's virtue over sound public policy.

‘Woke’ is being used to describe everything and nothing. What does it actually mean?

Use of the term woke in Black culture is decades old. Now, mostly white Americans lob it at Disney, BlackRock and others deemed progressive in a pejorative...

www.marketwatch.com

Or other just as interesting gobbygoop.

The whole thing gets much less popular when we start legislating based upon the moral panic of the anti-woke crowd.

You also run afoul of the original definition that, you know, people who invented the word meant by it:

aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

Definition of WOKE

aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice) —often used in contexts that suggest someone's expressed beliefs about such matters are not backed with genuine concern or action… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

So, the whole thing is a co-opted word that has been caricatured to mean all the ills that conservatives imagine their opposition to mean in what is essentially a straw man of most everyone's position.

But, I don't think word "woke" is unique in the realm of using semantically overloaded or vague words or phrases in the political realm.

I would think that you could probably find a lot of folks on both sides who, if you put them on the spot, probably couldn't come up with a precise elegant definition of an expression they may use quite a bit.

When people are throwing around words that are poorly or ill defined for effect they are arguing emotionally and lazily. They've made some vague associations at best and the message isn't clear or even helpful. It's something to be avoided in serious discussions.

It's not the sort of thing you should base your presidential platform on, which is why I'm calling DeSantis a cheap suit (even in comparison to Trump which should really tell you something).

Trump is calling out the utter shallowness of his opponents favorite move here, that's his strategy. I assume he doesn't care for high discourse because well Trump.

He's doing it because he can see the writing on the wall that the discussion is just a toxic mess that isn't doing any real long tern favors, and everyone will hate and be tired of by the time it matters.

 

[DaisyDay]

Donald may not like the term "woke" but that didn't stop him from slapping it on hats and such to make a buck.

Trump store selling ‘woke’ merchandise as part of outreach to black voters

Supporters of President Trump can now purchase “Woke” hats and “Black Voices for Trump” T-shirts from his campaign store as his team works to expand its outreach to black voters.On the preside…

thehill.com

 

[Jermayn]

Donald may not like the term "woke" but that didn't stop him from slapping it on hats and such to make a buck.

Trump store selling ‘woke’ merchandise as part of outreach to black voters

Supporters of President Trump can now purchase “Woke” hats and “Black Voices for Trump” T-shirts from his campaign store as his team works to expand its outreach to black voters.On the preside…

thehill.com

Politicians aren't sitting around thinking of things to put on hats and t-shirts. That goes for Dems and Repubs. There's also no evidence that any of this was officially endorsed.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Politicians aren't sitting around thinking of things to put on hats and t-shirts. That goes for Dems and Repubs. There's also no evidence that any of this was officially endorsed.

Trump’s alleged disregard for the term shouldn’t be taken particularly seriously. He’s used the term many, many times over the course of his career. He’s sold merchandise using it. On Sunday he slammed Disney for being “woke.” In fact later on the same day that he said he wasn’t a fan of the term, he called the military “woke.”


At the very least, since he's used the word a lot himself (maybe not as much as DeSantis does), the critique isn't necessarily as valid coming from him.

At best, it's like the guy who drinks 5 beers at the bar chastising the guy who drinks 7 beers for "drinking too much"

 

[DaisyDay]

Politicians aren't sitting around thinking of things to put on hats and t-shirts. That goes for Dems and Repubs. There's also no evidence that any of this was officially endorsed.

That it was designed by his team and marketed in his campaign store and website does indicate that it was officially endorsed.

Or alternative theory: woke activists snuck the merchandise into the store and hacked his online webstore.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Donald Trump criticizes conservatives saying "woke" all the time

"I don't like the term 'woke,'" Trump said. "'Woke, woke, woke' ... Half the people can't even define it, they don't know what it is."

www.newsweek.com

Now that DeSantis has made attacking 'woke' his signature move, Trump says he doesn't like the word because 'half the people' who use it 'can't even define it'

Trump has frequently used the word "woke" in the past to attack Democrats, a move his 2024 challenger DeSantis has also embraced.

www.businessinsider.com

Not sure what his angle is on this one (apart from being an obvious, petty, and superficial attack on who he sees as his main rival)

But he's been taking a number of stances recently that could be seen as somewhat counterproductive given the base he's chosen to endear himself to over the past 6 years.

He appeared to side with Disney over DeSantis

Appears to be chastising others in the GOP for being "too strict" on abortion (not two months after bragging and taking credit for "killing Roe v. wade").

He also has been taking a "not so conservative stance" on certain entitlement programs.



Had he built his base off of the Chris Sununu/Larry Hogan centrist type of republicans, this strategy may make some sense.

However, he's spent a good part of the last decade trying to ally with and energize the most right wing part of the base, only to then run to the left of his main primary opponent?? Seems like a gamble.

Only thing I can figure is that maybe he has campaign advisors in his ear giving him the impression that he'll easily cruise through the primaries, and these more "softened" stances are part of a strategy to gain more moderate/independent votes that he was lacking (and caused him to lose to Biden) in 2020.

Or, perhaps I'm giving it too much thought and it really is just as simple as the short-sighted "ready, fire, aim" mentality he's become known for.

Yeah....that's a fail. I don't think he can openly move to the center. Perhaps he's seeing the minorities fleeing the left and wants to gain them as voters....but I think your guess about him going against Desantis is the most likely response.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It means he can read polling which has shown that people in general are confused as to what conservatives are talking/mad about (to the point where "wokeness" is seen as positive by many.

There's a poll showing wokeness as a positive?

So, he apparently realizes what a losing issue looks like and is differentiating himself from an opponent who is tied to it. It's generally horrid framing for a general election that he need not buy into.

What's the "losing issue"?

The funny part is that he is correct, Woke is a conservative dog whistle being blown by culture warriors in a way that will likely turn off most people if and when we ever get into specifics of what we're talking about and what to do about it.

Dog whistle? Conservatives mean the same thing as progressives who use the term. If it feels derogatory....that might be the result of people understanding what it meant.

The problem with DeSantis is that most of his recent policies are only popular with a rather crazy section of the GOP's most highly reactionary religious folks that already worship Trump .

I think about half of registered Democrats agreed with the "Don't Say Gay" bill if they read it first....and it wasn't labeled the "don't say gay" bill.

There's simply no reason for Trump to tie HIS brand to someone else's haphazard and poorly defined one. It's not a limb he's gone out on here either because he can always simply define what HE stands for and say his opponent's stance is a hot ill defined mess.

I don't think Trump has much of a platform.

 

[driewerf]

I get the feeling expecting consistency and logic from Trump is much like expecting fish to ride bicycles.

 

[Jermayn]

That it was designed by his team and marketed in his campaign store and website does indicate that it was officially endorsed.

Or alternative theory: woke activists snuck the merchandise into the store and hacked his online webstore.

I'm just asking you to provide proof if you are going to accuse someone of something. Also, it still doesn't negate the fact that Joe Biden, Donald Trump, Ron Desantis, or any other politician sit around pondering the next catchy slogan for their campaign.

 

[variant]

There's a poll showing wokeness as a positive?

Woke. Yes.

A GOP war on 'woke'? Most Americans view the term as a positive, USA TODAY/Ipsos Poll finds

By 56%-39%, Americans say 'woke' means being aware of social injustice, not being overly politically correct.

www.usatoday.com

What's the "losing issue"?

Demonizing all things liberal or imagined to be liberal under the term anti-woke, while not having a coherent message otherwise.

Dog whistle? Conservatives mean the same thing as progressives who use the term. If it feels derogatory....that might be the result of people understanding what it meant.

They absolutely do not, many people mean many very different things, see the poll I quoted and the "definitions" I quoted.

I think about half of registered Democrats agreed with the "Don't Say Gay" bill if they read it first....and it wasn't labeled the "don't say gay" bill.

I doubt it since the bill in practice outlaws the mention of homosexuals in general which should not be outlawed for teachers, and, we've gone beyond even that to much more radical and hateful laws.

I don't think Trump has much of a platform.

Me neither, the man's skill set is reading the zeitgeist though. He isn't "woke" by any definition of the term and is only speaking out against it because it's a mess ideologically, a losing issue for him politically, and the brand of his opponent.

 

[DaisyDay]

I'm just asking you to provide proof if you are going to accuse someone of something.

Wait, "accuse"?

What kind of proof are you asking for? The article with pictures isn't enough for you? Do you think the Hill was lying for some reason concerning outreach to Black voters back in 2020?

Here is another, independent article from back in 2020 discussing the outreach campaign.

You can accept it or not.

Also, it still doesn't negate the fact that Joe Biden, Donald Trump, Ron Desantis, or any other politician sit around pondering the next catchy slogan for their campaign.

Are you saying that they do or that they don't?

 

[wing2000]

DeSantis putting on his best Churchill? :

[Credit Heather Richardson Cox]

"the woke mind virus represents a war on the truth so we will wage a war on the woke.
We will fight the woke in education,
we will fight the woke in the corporations,
we will fight the woke in the halls of congress.
We will never, ever surrender to the woke mob.
We will make woke ideology leave it to the dustbin of history;
it’s gone.”

Churchill:
“we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end,
we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air,
we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, w
e shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender....”

June 4, 2023

Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Orthodox Church, a staunch supporter of Russian president Vladimir Putin and his invasion of Ukraine, last week awarded the First Degree of the Order of Glory and Honor from the Russian Orthodox Church to Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orbán.

open.substack.com

 

[NxNW]

It's a restless wind that yearns to wander

All we are is dust in the wind.

 

[Jermayn]

Wait, "accuse"?

What kind of proof are you asking for? The article with pictures isn't enough for you? Do you think the Hill was lying for some reason concerning outreach to Black voters back in 2020?

Here is another, independent article from back in 2020 discussing the outreach campaign.

You can accept it or not.

Are you saying that they do or that they don't?

The Hill and NY Times hardly qualify as proof of anything. Both are highly partisan journals who may as well be state run Democrat media outlets. Show me an official endorsement of the merchandise and related slogan. Also, I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant to say it doesn't negate the fact that these politicians are NOT sitting around dreaming up the next catchy slogan. I'm not saying Trump didn't. It's possible he went to his campaign manager and said "I want a hat with WOKE printed on distributed in black neighborhoods", but we both know that's highly unlikely. We also both know there's really no point in arguing about it any further because no one cares or will remember it for more than a couple hours.

 

[DaisyDay]

The Hill and NY Times hardly qualify as proof of anything. Both are highly partisan journals who may as well be state run Democrat media outlets.

I guess they used Obama's time travel machine to plant this story back in 2020 to embarrass Donald three years later after "woke" had become a swear word of the right.

Show me an official endorsement of the merchandise and related slogan.

What is more official than selling the merch at their store? You can believe it or not, I don't care.

Also, I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant to say it doesn't negate the fact that these politicians are NOT sitting around dreaming up the next catchy slogan. I'm not saying Trump didn't. It's possible he went to his campaign manager and said "I want a hat with WOKE printed on distributed in black neighborhoods", but we both know that's highly unlikely.

That's why they pay their campaign personnel millions of dollars. Do you think Donald's campaign would sell anything he did not approve?

We also both know there's really no point in arguing about it any further because no one cares or will remember it for more than a couple hours.

Then why are you continuing to argue about it?

 

[stevil]

Woke panic is working pretty well on "conservatives" I think. Abandoning that ground does seem counterproductive.

Otoh Desantis owns the woke panic brand, and it seems to be the sole visible plank of his platform. So its the only place to attack short of fabricating some Desantis personal scandal or going after his family - which is probably coming.

I really think Desantis hanging his hat on wokism is silly politics.
Woke isn't really a thing. I've never seen Biden promoting wokism.

You would think politicians ought to be focused on financial policies, international trade, infrastructure, job creation, healthcare, immigration, international trade etc.

Worrying about whether Ariel's skin is white enough, or if gay people are allowed to exist and express themselves, is really not worthy of running a campaign on.
I know "Only in America' applies and it seems a lot of people that primarily watch Fox News, OAN, Brightbart, think they are in some kind of culture war.

But, for as silly as D Trump is, he has always campaigned on bigger tickets , his build a wall was about immigration, his tax cuts was about fiscal policy, his trade war with China was all about international trade. His fiasco of repeal and replace was about healthcare.

DeSantis is infamous for his anti mask, anti vaccine, anti immigration antics and political theatre. He is full in on this culture tussle about unimportant things, and has no interest in the big items.

 

[Jermayn]

Then why are you continuing to argue about it?

Because the argument you were trying to make was pretty bad and I was trying to help you out by moving past it. To each their own I guess.

 

[Whyayeman]

DeSantis is infamous for his anti mask, anti vaccine, anti immigration antics and political theatre. He is full in on this culture tussle about unimportant things, and has no interest in the big items.

And banning books and images. He is very big on those.