Tattoos

[Truthseeker84]

I have a tattoo of a fish symbol on my wrist. Is this against torah?? Should I get it removed??

 

[RisingSpirit]

Back then, Tattoos were used as a brand for a group. Today, most don't brand themselves. Remove it if it is a brand or a member of a cult. A fish isn't a brand, it's art. No need to remove it and you may enjoy the fish.

 

[visionary]

Marking onesself does give evidence that marring the image of God in your flesh has been done.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have a tattoo of a fish symbol on my wrist. Is this against torah?? Should I get it removed??

Others may disagree...but I think you're more than fine. Other Messianics have done so for ages and they won't be the last.

Torah never forbid marking of onself as an end in/of itself , seeing the multiple instances where the Lord Himself commanded it of His people and did so to them. Moreover, the markings within the Torah that were condemned were of a specific kind (unto the dead/spirits of the afterlife) as opposed to all physical markings in general. The discussion has occurred many times before, though it tends to be the case that many of the scriptures where Tattoos/markings were demonstrated in the lives of Biblical characters (including Yeshua) are often ignored outright.

If you do one, do it to the glory of the Lord--as its your body and it should reflect him when it comes to one's choices, just as it is with how one takes care of their feet, eyes, or other body parts (even down to make-up).

If interested, here are some other places where the subject of marking/alterations to the body have come up in detail by other Messianics :

I think we need to be very careful not to judge people and categorize them as being "vain" just because they were make up. Vanity is an issue of the heart as well.. and many many people that don't believe in make up are vain. It's much more than make up, jewelry, piercings, etc. Also that is a personal conviction. Not a biblical one- so I believe we must be careful not to judge people based on that.

We also must respect other peoples opinions and believes on issues such as these. The reality is none of this is biblical and like many posters have said- earrings are mentioned in the bible and NOT in a negative context (and if there are any verses that are in a negative light, please enlighten me on the verses) . In the end it's up to personal conviction. We are allowed to and think as we wish. But I think once we IMPOSE our own personal convictions on others we have the tendency to become critical and it's not worth dividing and separating based on those outward issues.

Just my opinions and thoughts

I looked at the Scripture in Leviticus and saw that we aren't to mark our bodies for the dead, or for any pagan religion. It was clear to me that those who have demonic tats &/or tattoos for memorials for dead people are in error. However tattooing for artistic reasons and for personal expression didn't seem to "fit" with what Leviticus is talking about. I have 2 tattoos and love them (they're plant-like/viney designs) and want to get another one (flowery). I have prayed about this, talked to my DH, and thought about it a great deal and feel like it's a non-issue for me. It's ok if I do, and ok if I don't. I wouldn't tell someone else they were in sin if they got a tattoo (unless they were planning a memorial tattoo or something). I guess it comes down to not being convicted in my spirit about it always being wrong.

Similar to the "dressing modestly" thread, I see tattoos as a matter of the heart. Why a person gets a tattoo is probably more important than anything else... (well, other than gross pagan/satanic tattoos of course) If it's done in rebellion, then it's wrong, just like anything else.

I will stand with Eirene in front of the firing squad on this one. I have 2 tattoos, and plan to add to one of them. I got my first tattoo 2 years ago, FAR after becoming a Believer (January of 1979). I studied out the Leviticus scriptures and came to the conclusion that they were talking about tattoos to remember the dead and tattoos having to do with pagan religions. My tattoos are flowery, and have nothing to do with dead people or religion. I like having my temple decorated a little. lol

For a significant bit, to have a marking/tattoo---be it with the kind that isn't pernament (such as is the case with Henna) or with permanent markings----its a sign of beauty. With the issue of Henna, many have noted how it has long been apart of Jewish culture when it comes to beauty and design...especially if studying the Jews who live in India. For some resources on such:

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• India - Henna by Sienna
  
  
  
• The Henna Page - Kurdish Jewish Henna Traditions
• The Jews of India: a story of three communities - Page 148
  
  
  
• The Henna Page - Henna Traditions of Jewish Brides in Kurdistan

The Joy of Henna​

Already interesting to consider the many ways in which many are simply unaware/ignorant of what life is like for those who are Indian Jewish---and some of it was discussed more in-depth elsewhere in #12 and the thread entitled "Cochin & Hindu Hebrews: Are most Messianic Jews familar with Indian Jewish Believers?" ( ) . To see how many apart of things within Indian culture were often mistreated by other Jews in Judaism because of their practices is amazing enough.....but that's another issue .


As it concerns markings, for others, its no different than the many ways people already do alterations of their body in ways ALL of us have accepted since our youth....be it with going to the dentist to get teeth fixed/cleaned or getting piercings (as often occurred in the Bible) and even the permanent mark of circumcision (which was practiced by nations outside of Israel and done LONG before God told Abraham to do so)

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...Torah commands already make allowance for tattoos/marks in differing settings and outlined specifically what kind were not to be allowed.

There are many solid resources that have done much coverage on the issue--and in example, for a more in depth review of tattoo and the Bible, check out (Im)Morality of Tattoos. As said best by that specific ministry when it comes to Torah command:

The main scripture that concerns many people with regards to tattooing is this verse from the remarkable Old Testament book of Leviticus

“You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD.” Leviticus 19:28 — New American Standard
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At first glance this passage seems to indicate that tattoo is forbidden for Christians. To comprehend the Scripture correctly, we must always examine the whole of Scripture and look at the particular context of a given passage. If we neglect deep study we will never truly understand the intent of the author. We need to look at the word(s) of the above passage in full connection with the surrounding verses, and in context with the historic setting at the time of its writing. When we study below the surface of this text, we then will see more clearly what God says about tattoo. The verse quoted above is part of a larger passage of scripture seen here.

26 ‘You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying. 27 You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard. 28 ‘You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD. 29 ‘Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, so that the land will not fall to harlotry and the land become full of lewdness. 30 ‘You shall keep My sabbaths and revere My sanctuary; I am the LORD. 31 ‘Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 19:26–31 — New American Standard
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In this passage God is speaking to his covenant people Israel. He is specifically telling them to stay far from the religious practices of the surrounding people groups. The prohibited religious practices in these verses include eating bloody meat, fortune telling, certain hair cuts related to the priests of false cults, cutting or marking the body for dead relatives, cultic prostitution and consulting psychics. All these practices would lead God's beloved people away from Him and toward false gods that were not Gods at all. In the midst of this context we find the word translated “tattoo marks” in verse 28. It is important to note here that the context of this passage is not one of body décor but one of marking one's self in connection with cultic religious worship.

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...what He said in CONTEXT was that tattoos/marks were not to be placed upon oneself for the DEAD. Again, as already mentioned, the brand letters/marks were considered wrong when they were done for the DEAD.

Leviticus 19:28
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:27-29 Leviticus 19


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The other scripture going alongside Leviticus 19:28 would be one found in Deuteronomy, which echoed similar thoughts:

Deuteronomy 14:1
[ Clean and Unclean Food ] You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.



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In Biblical times, tattoos were used to show allegiance to particular idols. And the specific Torah commandment is against self-injury during mourning, which were also idolatrous practices. Leviticus 19:28 includes purposeful self-mutilation, cutting, scarification, burning, etc. Note that the psychological self-mutilation issue is very different from these kinds of actions being done for the sake of beauty or idolatry. Tattos and markings were mentioned in unison when it came to the practice of doing so for the dead, in light of Caananite culture. Some excellent reads on the issue that were mentioned earlier can be found if one chooses to go online/look up the books entitled Israel’s Beneficent Dead: Ancestor Cult and Necromancy in Ancient Israelite Religion and Tradition andJudahite Burial Practices and Beliefs About the Dead (Jsots Series No 123).

There was a HISTORICAL context when it came to markings/tattoos... The focus was...and has ALWAYS been markings/tattoos that are done for the purposes of idolatry/calling up the spirts of the departed, as that's the historical backing--and trying to claim otherwise makes the Lord out to be a liar when He already noted markings to be condoned by Him on multiple points:

• Revelations 19:15 with Christ having language written on Him...
• Revelations 3 where the Lord said He'd mark His people/write His name on them
• Isaiah 44:5 with HaShem saying He'd tattoo/mark His own people
• Ezekiel 9:4-7 with Him commanding the prophet to mark those who grieved over abominations
• Song of Songs, where the lover makes clear their companion has been placed as seal upon their heart and a seal upon their arm.
• Cain in Genesis 4, who was marked by the Lord..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have a tattoo of a fish symbol on my wrist. Is this against torah?? Should I get it removed??

Messianic Jewish apologist, Dr.Michael Brown, sought to cover the issue in-depth on his website when it came to Tattoos/Evangelism amongst those who have Tattoo's ...and there was some good discussion on the matter. As said best by another on the matter from his ministry site:

The Law in the Old Testament dealt with physical things, like murder, adultery, food, cleanliness, etc….but as Jer. 33 tells us the law under the new covenant is one written on the hearts. Jesus tells us that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him (dealing with the washing of hands), but what comes out.

O.T. – Murder (physical) N.T – Hate (heart)
O.T. – Adultery (physcial) N.T – Lust (heart)
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The physical O.T laws became N.T heart attitudes that birth obedience.

So what about Lev. 19 – Verse 26-29 deal with pagan worship. In the N.T. we find out that worship is not physical things (like music and clapping – even though these are good to be used in worship) but rather worship is from the heart. It is spirit and truth from the inside. Jesus tells the woman at the well that it doesn’t matter what mountain they worship on, the issue is knowing who you are worshipping and having your heart set on loving God.

It is no longer cutting the corners of your beard that is pagan worship, but if you are cutting your beard with a heart to worship false gods, it is wrong. The same goes for tatoos. A tatoo in and of itself is not wrong. It is the motive behind the tatoo, and what the tatoo depicts that make it wrong of not.

Getting a tatoo that is symbolic of Christ and my deep relationship with Him is not something that is pagan worship. So I would not be breaking the Law that is written on my heart.
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[xDenax]

I think it's fine too but I'm not an MJ.

 

[anisavta]

Didn't we just do this thread complete with 5x7 glossy pictures not too long ago? I would suggest checking backposts to see a full and complete discussion on the subject.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think it's fine too but I'm not an MJ.

Jewish still counts as having a valid perspective, I'd think

 

[xDenax]

Jewish still counts as having a valid perspective, I'd think

I still gave my opinion. It's just the reason I have that opinion is pretty irrelevant to the MJ community.

 

[rsduncan]

...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I still gave my opinion.

I know, as I saw where you said you'd be fine with a tattoo.

It's just the reason I have that opinion is pretty irrelevant to the MJ community.

It'd still be an opinion worth hearing, regardless of whether or not its irrelevant to the MJ community. Even for those of the Judaic community that are Non-Messianics, they still have views worth considering (IMHO) since many of the same issues that they face will be things that tend to go into the Messianic one...and even if/when they don't, its worth hearing

 

[Lulav]

I have a tattoo of a fish symbol on my wrist. Is this against torah?? Should I get it removed??

I see no one has even asked the pertinent question.

Why?

What does it stand for?

What was your reasoning for getting it?

 

[Lulav]

...

Ah, de plane Boss, de PLANE!

 

[xDenax]

I see no one has even asked the pertinent question.

Why?

What does it stand for?

What was your reasoning for getting it?

I figured it was a Jesus fish of some sort.

 

[visionary]

I often wonder how many regret those tattoos later in life... We do not even wear the same clothes, jewelry or rings for long before we grow tired of it...

 

[visionary]

A tattoo of a different kind. http://www.upworthy.com/she-tattooe...-know-it-her-skills-are-just-that-good?c=ufb4

 

[Lulav]

Actually it's not a different kind, the basics are all there, pricking the skin, imbedding ink, drawing blood, only the aesthetics are different.

 

[Hoshiyya]

True. But out of all the kinds of tattoo, this is one I'd consider reconstructive post dermic trauma and not "decorative" like a fish or tribal squiggle.

 

[visionary]

 

[Shoshana bat Noach]

According to the Talmud, most of Leviticus 18 and 19 is dedicated to the prohibition of pagan practices. There is a minority opinion gleaned from this saying that tattoos are only forbidden if they're idolatrous. So if your tattoo is of a Jesus fish it would be perfectly acceptable in the framework of Christian belief.