Talking to someone about Faith

[RandyPNW]

No, I think you're exactly right--you aren't in the place where I am, in forums hearing people use "faith" as a means of license, ie antinomianism. They say that "law" and "faith" are opposites, and that anything we "do" is a mistaken sense of guilt since we are not justified by what we "do."

Anyway, you're right that Paul has already pretty well defined "faith 101" in Romans and elsewhere. We should know that faith existed under the Law of Moses, and that grace is not antinomian. Here is a quick set of references to that effect, which is something I'm posting today on my forum...

What does Paul mean when he said that the Law amplifies Sin? I think this can be illustrated in the story of Abraham being asked, by God, to offer up his son Isaac as a Sin Offering, an offering designed to cover Abraham's sins. In the end, God stopped Abraham from offering his son because in doing so it was obviously a flawed offering. Abraham could not offer his son up as a sacrifice in a way that reflected the purity of God.

And so, God provided an offering for Abraham, instead of Isaac. And from that time forward Israel understood that in offering up animal sacrifices, the priesthood never offered sin sacrifices in the purity of God, but instead understood that God reckoned those sacrifices an adequate way of expressing God's own purity in providing His own sacrifice for sin.

Paul argued that from the time Adam and Eve fell into sin and rebellion in the garden of Eden, the entire race of humanity had become disqualified from eternal life with God, whether they committed sins similar to Adam and Eve or not.

Humanity had become spiritually tainted with rebellion. They were born with human spirits that had become contaminated with an independent, rebellious spirit, and this could only be finally eliminated by death, and not just by atonements man offered by himself. God had to provide an atonement that could forgive and mitigate sin, but the Law was designed to show that Man must die, because all have that contaminated nature.

So it is not man's own efforts that completely eliminate sin--they can only represent obedience that pleases God by showing our imitation of Gods' purity, and find acceptance in that by demonstrating trust that God alone can and will do the work of atonement. Man must trust in God to provide His own sacrifice, lest we suffer eternally the fate of separation from God, which sin requires.

This is what Paul meant by saying that the Law is not of faith. It was an acceptable imitation of what only God could do. But it still was a system based on man's contaminated performance in imitating God. To be a system based strictly on faith, it had to be based on trust that God would do what only He could do.

Rom 2.12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Rom 3.20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Rom 5.20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more.

Gal 2.15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles* 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3.12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

Heb 7.27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 10.1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins... 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

Heb 11.4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings....
17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death... 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

*When Paul speaks of "sinful Gentiles" he was not saying Israel was not sinful. Rather, he was speaking of Israel being chosen to live a life of obedience under the Law, imitating God's ways. "Sinful Gentiles" were raised in paganism not to imitate God, but rather, to rely strictly on their own justifications.

 

[BobRyan]

Under the "New Covenant" of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 - the moral law of God (which includes the TEN ) is "written on heart and mind".

The Law was never given as a "means of salvation" (Gal 3) . yet the Gospel writes the Law of God on the heart and enables mankind to comply with the Word/Law of God. Rom 8:4-9. There we find that those who are not born-again and led by the Spirit of God - "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they"

So when Paul says to honor parents in Eph 6:1-2 he can rightly point out to the NT saints the "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid moral law of God that defines what sin is 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

Heb 10:4-8 tells us that animal sacrifices never forgave even one sin in all of time. Rather they are a symbol used by the faithful to point forward to the sacrifice of Christ - which was their only claim to forgiveness -- the blood of Christ alone.

 

[RandyPNW]

Under the "New Covenant" of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 - the moral law of God (which includes the TEN ) is "written on heart and mind".

The Law was never given as a "means of salvation" (Gal 3) . yet the Gospel writes the Law of God on the heart and enables mankind to comply with the Word/Law of God. Rom 8:4-9. There we find that those who are not born-again and led by the Spirit of God - "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they"

I agree, but I would only dispute that those who are not born again cannot submit to God's Law. If they have their minds on the flesh, of course they will only do the things of the flesh.

But *can they* set their minds on the Law of God and spiritual things, even if subconsciously? Of course they can! Even Cain could obey God, as God Himself said, and he was called a "child of the Devil."

We are told so often by some Christians that it requires "special powers" from God to be able to obey God's Law. There's nothing whatsoever about that in the Bible. All men were created in God's image, and all are expected to respond to God's word in their conscience.

The "special powers" come from God's word, which is generously given to all men everywhere. Saying they "cannot" obey God's word reduces God's judgment to a "joke." How can God hold people responsible if the *cannot* do right? Otherwise, I agree with you. The Law is actually *written* on the heart for those who choose to believe and are born again.

So when Paul says to honor parents in Eph 6:1-2 he can rightly point out to the NT saints the "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid moral law of God that defines what sin is 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT.

Heb 10:4-8 tells us that animal sacrifices never forgave even one sin in all of time. Rather they are a symbol used by the faithful to point forward to the sacrifice of Christ - which was their only claim to forgiveness -- the blood of Christ alone.

Animal sacrifices were not just "symbols," but were actual mediums through which temporary atonement was achieved. But as you said, it did not achieve and could not achieve Eternal Life.

The Law, and its legal requirements did enable Israel to remain in covenant relationship with God, so that God was pleased with their obedience. God did forgive their sins through the priesthood, the sacrifices, and the temple worship. But it also included the evidence that it was insufficient for the administration of Eternal Life, which belongs to Christ's priesthood alone.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree, but I would only dispute that those who are not born again cannot submit to God's Law.

True - But God has given the lost the power of choice to choose Him via His supernatural "drawing of all mankind unto Me" John 12:32.

God's supernatural drawing - enables the choice to accept the Gospel - the depravity disabled.

We are told so often by some Christians that it requires "special powers" from God to be able to obey God's Law.

That is what the Bible says in Rom 8:4-12

Paul says that the lost "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"

Without the Holy Spirit it is not possible. In Matt 5 Jesus shows the deeper meaning to the Law of God - which is one that the lost cannot comply with.

But He gives the Lost the power to accept the Gospel - because He supernaturally draws the lost to Himself.

Saying they "cannot" obey God's word reduces God's judgment to a "joke." How can God hold people responsible if the *cannot* do right?

HE can rightly judge/condemn the lost because He draws ALL to Himself supernaturally enabling all to choose life at which point the Holy Spirit creates a new heart, new creation the person.

Otherwise, I agree with you. The Law is actually *written* on the heart for those who choose to believe and are born again.

True. That is 'The result' of choosing the Gospel - of submitting to the supernatural drawing of ALL mankind that is done by God.

Animal sacrifices were not just "symbols," but were actual mediums through which temporary atonement was achieved. But as you said, it did not achieve and could not achieve Eternal Life.

Heb 10:4 no animal sacrifices forgave even one sin. Only the blood of Christ could do it. So all forgiveness of sin in the OT was by faith in Christ.

Moses and Elijah stand "in glory with Christ" in Matt 17 - because of the power of the Gospel in the OT prior to the cross - that was based on faith in Christ and His work on the cross.

 

[RandyPNW]

True - But God has given the lost the power of choice to choose Him via His supernatural "drawing of all mankind unto Me" John 12:32.

God's supernatural drawing - enables the choice to accept the Gospel - the depravity disabled.

Yes, that's what I mean when I quote Deut 30...

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Israel was enabled, supernaturally, to obey God's command to love simply through the giving of the commandment by God. The word contained, inherently, the ability to empower the adherent to obey that word.

So unbelievers can obey God's word to their conscience even though their mind does not recognize that that word is coming to them from God. They may even think they are obeying this word by their own power, when they are not!

But it is different when a believer imbibes not just a particular command but the entire set of commands resident in the word of God. That is, a person can embrace not just individual words, but the entire word itself, as representative of God as their Lord.

When that happens, the word enables the believer to be regenerated, granting him to have a new nature, different from picking and choosing what word from God he wants to obey. Instead of being autonomous and rendering decisions apart from God, he chooses from henceforth to decide things in conjunction with God and His word.

That is what the Bible says in Rom 8:4-12

Paul says that the lost "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they"

This is basically a truism Paul is talking about. When a person chooses to live carnally, separate from the Spirit of God, his mind is only on carnal things and thus cannot make spiritual choices. It is *not* saying the unbeliever cannot make some good choices. It is talking about what happens when we set our minds on acting independent of God and His word.

Without the Holy Spirit it is not possible. In Matt 5 Jesus shows the deeper meaning to the Law of God - which is one that the lost cannot comply with.

But He gives the Lost the power to accept the Gospel - because He supernaturally draws the lost to Himself.

That was my whole point, that the Lost can act in concert with God's word and Spirit, whether or not they recognize they are doing that. Of course, when a person responds to the Gospel, they do open their eyes and allow their minds to recognize what they're doing, that they're responding to God's word as a whole, giving their whole heart to Christ as Lord.

Moses and Elijah stand "in glory with Christ" in Matt 17 - because of the power of the Gospel in the OT prior to the cross - that was based on faith in Christ and His work on the cross.

Amen. The word of God in the OT is by nature the same word of God in the NT, only mediated through the cross in the NT. In all cases, God enables Man to obey him, and therefore will hold us all responsible in the judgment. Even those who were unable to fully recognize what the voice was in their conscience will be held accountable to some degree. But God understands everyone, and will show mercy when it is justified.

 

[Jan001]

No, I think you're exactly right--you aren't in the place where I am, in forums hearing people use "faith" as a means of license, ie antinomianism. They say that "law" and "faith" are opposites, and that anything we "do" is a mistaken sense of guilt since we are not justified by what we "do."

Anyway, you're right that Paul has already pretty well defined "faith 101" in Romans and elsewhere. We should know that faith existed under the Law of Moses, and that grace is not antinomian. Here is a quick set of references to that effect, which is something I'm posting today on my forum...

What does Paul mean when he said that the Law amplifies Sin? I think this can be illustrated in the story of Abraham being asked, by God, to offer up his son Isaac as a Sin Offering, an offering designed to cover Abraham's sins. In the end, God stopped Abraham from offering his son because in doing so it was obviously a flawed offering. Abraham could not offer his son up as a sacrifice in a way that reflected the purity of God.

And so, God provided an offering for Abraham, instead of Isaac. And from that time forward Israel understood that in offering up animal sacrifices, the priesthood never offered sin sacrifices in the purity of God, but instead understood that God reckoned those sacrifices an adequate way of expressing God's own purity in providing His own sacrifice for sin.

Paul argued that from the time Adam and Eve fell into sin and rebellion in the garden of Eden, the entire race of humanity had become disqualified from eternal life with God, whether they committed sins similar to Adam and Eve or not.

Humanity had become spiritually tainted with rebellion. They were born with human spirits that had become contaminated with an independent, rebellious spirit, and this could only be finally eliminated by death, and not just by atonements man offered by himself. God had to provide an atonement that could forgive and mitigate sin, but the Law was designed to show that Man must die, because all have that contaminated nature.

So it is not man's own efforts that completely eliminate sin--they can only represent obedience that pleases God by showing our imitation of Gods' purity, and find acceptance in that by demonstrating trust that God alone can and will do the work of atonement. Man must trust in God to provide His own sacrifice, lest we suffer eternally the fate of separation from God, which sin requires.

This is what Paul meant by saying that the Law is not of faith. It was an acceptable imitation of what only God could do. But it still was a system based on man's contaminated performance in imitating God. To be a system based strictly on faith, it had to be based on trust that God would do what only He could do.

Rom 2.12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Rom 3.20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Rom 5.20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more.

Gal 2.15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles* 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3.12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

Heb 7.27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 10.1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins... 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law.

Heb 11.4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings....
17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death... 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

*When Paul speaks of "sinful Gentiles" he was not saying Israel was not sinful. Rather, he was speaking of Israel being chosen to live a life of obedience under the Law, imitating God's ways. "Sinful Gentiles" were raised in paganism not to imitate God, but rather, to rely strictly on their own justifications.

What does Paul mean when he said that the Law amplifies Sin?

It amplifies/makes it easier to sin because there are 613 laws in the Law of Moses to break and so it was a difficult burden for the Israelites to keep all of them. The Law of Moses was a yoke that God put upon them to train them to be obedient.

Galatians 3:21-25 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke (Law of Moses) that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The 613 laws in the Law of Moses were put upon the Israelites because of their worship of the golden calf in the desert. Acts 7:38-43

Romans 5:19-21a The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. (There would then be more sins for Jesus to atone for by His sacrificial death on the cross. His mercy would be amplified.)

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

Romans 2:22-24 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” (#282 of the 613)

Galatians 3:24-25 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

There is no need for the Law of Moses anymore. It accomplished its purpose.

 

[RandyPNW]

It amplifies/makes it easier to sin because there are 613 laws in the Law of Moses to break and so it was a difficult burden for the Israelites to keep all of them. The Law of Moses was a yoke that God put upon them to train them to be obedient.

Galatians 3:21-25 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke (Law of Moses) that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

The 613 laws in the Law of Moses were put upon the Israelites because of their worship of the golden calf in the desert. Acts 7:38-43

Romans 5:19-21a The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. (There would then be more sins for Jesus to atone for by His sacrificial death on the cross. His mercy would be amplified.)

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.

Romans 2:22-24 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” (#282 of the 613)

Galatians 3:24-25 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

There is no need for the Law of Moses anymore. It accomplished its purpose.

Yes, this is simpler than I and many others have made this previously. It isn't as though the Law was an evil trick designed to fool us into thinking we can be righteous when we can't be. On the contrary, it was designed to give Israel a temporary means of righteousness so as to keep them in good standing with God. It was not to drive them away out of frustration.

So what did Paul mean by saying the Law had this negative ministry? He meant to say that the Law was used as a teaching tool to show Israel that they needed a corrective to their sin problem so that their righteousness and covenant relationship with God would not be temporary. They needed a means of resolution to the regular sins that beset us, in greater or smaller ways. And we all need resurrection, which is an end to our physical discontinuity with God in this world.

So the Law taught Israel by all of its redemptive rituals to understand that we're all impure and need to be regularly restored to right relationship with God. All of the ceremonies of purification and atonement were designed to show this problem of separation due to sin and the need to fix it for all time. The tabernacle set a barrier between God and Man showing that under the Law the record of human sin remained an obstacle, and that death has no remedy as yet.

But the Law, in its holy demands, also showed our flaws in following those holy laws. Even as Israel kept the command to not have idols it was revealed even in their adherence that there were smaller forms of "idolatry" that also kept them separated from God to some degree. There is a need for resolution in even these smaller items.

This idea that the Law was a failed system fails to see these things. It was planned by God as a 1st step in a nation to lead to a final resolution to the problems shown in the Law. But the Law was legitimately a system of righteousness even though it did not contain a final resolution.

The resolution would be reliance on *Christ's* record of sinlessness, rather than focus on our own imperfect record under the Law. By choosing to live *in Christ,* spiritually, we could obtain *his record* of blamelessness, and so achieve his ability to rise from the dead. And so, sin would ultimately be resolved in a new physical creation, and in the present by legal recourse to his record.

When Paul said that "faith would come," he was speaking not about faith in the Law, which depends on our own failed record. Rather, he was speaking about faith in Christ alone, which depends on his perfect record. Only by this kind of faith can we achieve what we cannot achieve by ourselves. Only by him can we obtain eternal forgiveness and resurrection from death to eternal life with God.

When Paul speaks of "faith," he is speaking of faith in something outside of ourselves that can achieve our objectives. Only faith in Christ can achieve Salvation and Immortality.

 

[Jan001]

Yes, this is simpler than I and many others have made this previously. It isn't as though the Law was an evil trick designed to fool us into thinking we can be righteous when we can't be. On the contrary, it was designed to give Israel a temporary means of righteousness so as to keep them in good standing with God. It was not to drive them away out of frustration.

So what did Paul mean by saying the Law had this negative ministry? He meant to say that the Law was used as a teaching tool to show Israel that they needed a corrective to their sin problem so that their righteousness and covenant relationship with God would not be temporary. They needed a means of resolution to the regular sins that beset us, in greater or smaller ways. And we all need resurrection, which is an end to our physical continuity with God in this world.

So the Law taught Israel by all of its redemptive rituals to understand that we're all impure and need to be regularly restored to right relationship with God. All of the ceremonies of purification and atonement were designed to show this problem of separation due to sin and the need to fix it for all time. The tabernacle set a barrier between God and Man showing that under the Law the record of human sin remained an obstacle, and that death has no remedy as yet.

But the Law, in its holy demands, also showed our flaws in following those holy laws. Even as Israel kept the command to not have idols it was revealed even in their adherence that there were smaller forms of "idolatry" that also kept them separated from God to some degree. There is a need for resolution in even these smaller items.

This idea that the Law was a failed system fails to see these things. It was planned by God as a 1st step in a nation to lead to a final resolution to the problems shown in the Law. But the Law was legitimately a system of righteousness even though it did not contain a final resolution.

The resolution would be reliance on *Christ's* record of sinlessness, rather than focus on our own imperfect record under the Law. By choosing to live *in Christ,* spiritually, we could obtain *his record* of blamelessness, and so achieve his ability to rise from the dead. And so, sin would ultimately be resolved in a new physical creation, and in the present by legal recourse to his record.

When Paul said that "faith would come," he was speaking not about faith in the Law, which depends on our own failed record. Rather, he was speaking about faith in Christ alone, which depends on his perfect record. Only by this kind of faith can we achieve what we cannot achieve by ourselves. Only by him can we obtain eternal forgiveness and resurrection from death to eternal life with God.

When Paul speaks of "faith," he is speaking of faith in something outside of ourselves that can achieve our objectives. Only faith in Christ can achieve Salvation and Immortality.

The sacrifices made according to the Law of Moses could not atone for Adam's sin. It was Adam's sin which prevented us (his descendants) from ever achieving eternal life with God. The Law of Moses' (and its religious system with its many temple sacrifices and high priests) was a shadow of what was to come: the "once and done" perfect atoning sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross. It was Jesus' perfect sacrifice which mediated our reconciliation with God. Jesus' perfect sacrifice freed us from Adam's sin which had prevented us from enjoying eternal life with God. Romans 5:15-17

No person can save himself by himself. Only Jesus, who is both God and man, could make it possible for us to inherit eternal life with God in heaven. That is why Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham (a part of Hades which was for the righteous people Genesis 15:6 who were awaiting the atoning sacrifice of Jesus so that the gates of heaven could be re-opened. Adam's sin had closed them to us. After HIs death, Jesus re-opened the gates of heaven and so then all the people who were waiting in Abraham's bosom were admitted into heaven. Luke 16:19-31

Paul states that faith in God/Jesus is necessary for salvation:

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace (Jesus' sacrifice) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Faith alone will not save us.

James 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:10 is a command, not a suggestion. Matthew 7:21, Matthew 12:50

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love (good works).

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Both faith and good works are necessary for salvation, and after we die, we will be judged by our works to determine if we are approved to inherit eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself (good works) and to the doctrine (faith). Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

John 5:28-30 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Romans 2:5-9 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are ]treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

 

[RandyPNW]

The sacrifices made according to the Law of Moses could not atone for Adam's sin. It was Adam's sin which prevented us (his descendants) from ever achieving eternal life with God. The Law of Moses' (and its religious system with its many temple sacrifices and high priests) was a shadow of what was to come...

No person can save himself by himself.

Yes, but do you understand what you're *meaning* when you say the Law was a "shadow?" Are you saying that Israel practiced the Law as a vain exercise, not accomplishing anything before God other than illustrating something that would benefit others? Or, are you saying that they were just illustrating that the sacrifices of atonement were in themselves nothing, but only directing to some future redemption?

If so, you would be advocating for a meaningless ceremony in Israel. You would be implying that God asked Israel do something of no effect, in the immediate term.

I'll say it again. The atonements under Law, as well as God providing clothing for Adam, had immediate effect as a temporary kind of reconciliation or atonement. It kept people of faith in temporary relationship with God through a kind of covenant relationship. And yes, these things would have zero value if it was based purely on human performance, and not on God's own provision.

Even though it could not immediately provide for Eternal Life, it did maintain relations with God until that better atonement could be provided for. I'm trying to be very clear here. Temporary forms of atonement under the Law *had value!*

They temporarily provided cover, by God, until final atonement could be made by Christ. Those observances had the immediate effect of keeping spiritual connection between Israel and God alive and well.

 

[Jan001]

Yes, but do you understand what you're *meaning* when you say the Law was a "shadow?" Are you saying that Israel practiced the Law as a vain exercise, not accomplishing anything before God other than illustrating something that would benefit others? Or, are you saying that they were just illustrating that the sacrifices of atonement were in themselves nothing, but only directing to some future redemption?

"No" to the first question. "No" to the second question.

Everything that God commands for people to do has a good purpose and will work for their good if they obey His commands. Romans 8:28

The following will explain "shadow" much better than I can:

Hebrews 10:1-4 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. ...

Hebrews 8:1-6 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises........

.....I'll say it again. The atonements under Law, as well as God providing clothing for Adam, had immediate effect as a temporary kind of reconciliation or atonement.

Adam's sin made him a spiritual enemy of God. Romans 5:10 That is why Adam and Eve were forced to leave the Garden of Eden. Genesis 3:22-24
God still loved Adam and Eve. 1 John 4:8 God helped them even though they severed their spiritual friendship with Him through their disobedience. 2 Timothy 2:13 And, yes, they did reconcile with God even though Eden and heaven remained closed to them and their descendants. Their son Abel was a just man. Matthew 23:35

It kept people of faith in temporary relationship with God through a kind of covenant relationship. And yes, these things would have zero value if it was based purely on human performance, and not on God's own provision.

Even though it could not immediately provide for Eternal Life, it did maintain relations with God until that better atonement could be provided for. I'm trying to be very clear here. Temporary forms of atonement under the Law *had value!*

They temporarily provided cover, by God, until final atonement could be made by Christ. Those observances had the immediate effect of keeping spiritual connection between Israel and God alive and well.

Yes. Everything that God commands for people to do has a good purpose and will work for their good if they obey His commands. Romans 8:28

The first testament was a covenant relationship between God and the people of Israel and it was through Israel that God provided for the redemption of the whole world.

John 4:19-23 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

 

[RandyPNW]

"No" to the first question. "No" to the second question.

Everything that God commands for people to do has a good purpose and will work for their good if they obey His commands. Romans 8:28

The following will explain "shadow" much better than I can...

You don't have to explain what "shadow" means. As long as you understand that the Law of Moses provided a measure of faith, righteousness, and atonement, then I have no problem with what you're saying. It seemed that you were protesting something I said--I wasn't sure.

Adam's sin made him a spiritual enemy of God. Romans 5:10 That is why Adam and Eve were forced to leave the Garden of Eden.

Well, it was certainly an act of disobedience and self-interest to ignore God's word. But I wouldn't necessarily say Adam and Eve thereby became God's enemy, like Satan was!

 

[Jan001]

You don't have to explain what "shadow" means. As long as you understand that the Law of Moses provided a measure of faith, righteousness, and atonement, then I have no problem with what you're saying. It seemed that you were protesting something I said--I wasn't sure.

Well, it was certainly an act of disobedience and self-interest to ignore God's word. But I wouldn't necessarily say Adam and Eve thereby became God's enemy, like Satan was!

I agree that Satan is God's main adversary and that he is definitely not in the same category of disobedience as Adam and Eve.

It seems to me that Scripture uses the word "enemy" in regards to Adam and Eve to show that they had fallen from their original perfect spiritual relationship with God.

Satan's fall and condemnation cannot be forgiven because of his superior enlightenment and he willfully chose to spurn God's rule over him. Mankind's fall could be forgiven and it was forgiven when Jesus mediated Adam's and Eve's reconciliation with God by His sacrificial death on the cross. As descendants of Adam, we had inherited the consequences of his fall from grace. Only Jesus Christ could and did make it possible for us to be restored to God's grace/friendship.

There have always been righteous people on earth who strived to obey God but they were prevented from full fellowship with God because of the original/first sin of Adam.

I've wondered what would have happened if Adam had not eaten the fruit after Eve had eaten it.

 

[RandyPNW]

I agree that Satan is God's main adversary and that he is definitely not in the same category of disobedience as Adam and Eve.

It seems to me that Scripture uses the word "enemy" in regards to Adam and Eve to show that they had fallen from their original perfect spiritual relationship with God.

Satan's fall and condemnation cannot be forgiven because of his superior enlightenment and he willfully chose to spurn God's rule over him. Mankind's fall could be forgiven and it was forgiven when Jesus mediated Adam's and Eve's reconciliation with God by His sacrificial death on the cross. As descendants of Adam, we had inherited the consequences of his fall from grace. Only Jesus Christ could and did make it possible for us to be restored to God's grace/friendship.

There have always been righteous people on earth who strived to obey God but they were prevented from full fellowship with God because of the original/first sin of Adam.

I've wondered what would have happened if Adam had not eaten the fruit after Eve had eaten it.

You make a lot of interesting points! Thanks.

 

[Jan001]

You make me think too! Thank you!