Talking to a Contradiction

[Karin12414]

You might try to focus in upon those elements and ideas of the Christian faith that you both have in common or at least have a share in as Christians (like the Trinity or Communion or whatever), even if in some more moderate way. So, you could "compare notes" with each other to see how you both stand on some topic like "church government" and get into the why's and wherefores as to how each denomination came to its conclusions. I mean, I know the Episcopalians could be questioned about the origins of their own views, but it's not AS IF the Baptists (of various sorts: Southern vs. Independent, etc.) have the purest, most accurate view of Scripture themselves either........

Just something to consider.

2PhiloVoid

I agree. We do talk about it a lot and it's not like we argue about it, we both actually agree on a lot. It just makes no sense because the things he states about hating Baptists for, is ALL of the stuff his church is doing x20.

I agree about the Views being skewed in all denominations, but honestly, I hate to identify my Church with the Southern Baptist Convention. We are not like most real Southern Baptist Churches I have been to. We have been moving away from the "traditions" and "pageantry" of it all and have become totally relationship based.

I don't know. I guess my worry is that I am sitting here doing nothing while he goes deeper into things that have nothing to do with the "Mission of Christians" as he likes to put it. We are called to love everyone and be living examples of people transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. We use our daily actions to speak for God and show compassion to all who need it, even non-believers. Once you turn it into some sort of government where you now answer to 10 people, before you can even think about approaching God, you've killed the entire point.

In the end, when we are before God, He isn't going to care about how many Bible's were changed to gender-neutral, or how many Churches you can get to be accepting of all of society's ways. He is going to ask what we did to build His Kingdom, and right now, I feel like I need to do something, but I don't know what.

So I am just going to leave it in God's hands till I, or someone else, is called to it.


Thank you guys, this has been a fun discussion. If there is anything to add, please keep going.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I agree. We do talk about it a lot and it's not like we argue about it, we both actually agree on a lot. It just makes no sense because the things he states about hating Baptists for, is ALL of the stuff his church is doing x20.

I agree about the Views being skewed in all denominations, but honestly, I hate to identify my Church with the Southern Baptist Convention. We are not like most real Southern Baptist Churches I have been to. We have been moving away from the "traditions" and "pageantry" of it all and have become totally relationship based.

I don't know. I guess my worry is that I am sitting here doing nothing while he goes deeper into things that have nothing to do with the "Mission of Christians" as he likes to put it. We are called to love everyone and be living examples of people transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. We use our daily actions to speak for God and show compassion to all who need it, even non-believers. Once you turn it into some sort of government where you now answer to 10 people, before you can even think about approaching God, you've killed the entire point.

In the end, when we are before God, He isn't going to care about how many Bible's were changed to gender-neutral, or how many Churches you can get to be accepting of all of society's ways. He is going to ask what we did to build His Kingdom, and right now, I feel like I need to do something, but I don't know what.

So I am just going to leave it in God's hands till I, or someone else, is called to it.


Thank you guys, this has been a fun discussion. If there is anything to add, please keep going.

I can understand your position in this. And yes, there are 'forces' and 'philosophies' at work in the middle of all of this that can make the whole attempt to discuss these things between you and him something beyond just the contents of the Bible. So, I do empathize with your position, Karin. Just realize that Episcopalians, as an form of Americanized Anglicanism (extending historically from the Church of England) have a long history of traditional development of thought and that this fact, when combined with the intrusion of modern social philosophies, is what makes the conversation so difficult with him in this case.

I think you already have a good sense of what's going on, it's just that the overall issues may be beyond you at the present moment.

Blessings, sister!

 

[Karin12414]

I can understand your position in this. And yes, there are 'forces' and 'philosophies' at work in the middle of all of this that can make the whole attempt to discuss these things between you and him something beyond just the contents of the Bible. So, I do empathize with your position, Karin. Just realize that Episcopalians, as an form of Americanized Anglicanism (extending historically from the Church of England) have a long history of traditional development of thought and that, combined with the intrusion of modern social philosophies, are what make the conversation so difficult with him in this case.

I think you already have a good sense of what's going on, it's just that the overall issues may be beyond you at the present moment.

Blessings, sister!

Wow thank you

It can be extremely frustrating, but I just have to keep reminding myself that God is in control and has a Plan for all of us. Just because I can't see the big picture now, doesn't mean I should try to take it into my own hands to make things the way I want them to be. Doing that usually just makes things WORSE.

I will keep praying and do my best to stay a good representation of Christ.

Thank you

 

[2Timothy2:15]

So I have a friend that has a beautiful passion for God, but I can't help but feel that the denomination he is a part of (Episcopal) is blocking him from fulfilling his true potential in Christ.

I'm not trying to say anything bad about the denomination. I don't know much about it, but what my friend has told me makes me think it is basically Catholic.

Now, the issue I think he is having is, the way the Episcopal Church is set up, they have their own system of government and there is a lot of bureaucracy going on. He was going on and on about the hierarchy of the Church and the history of it, but there was nothing that felt like it was for God. I can't help but feel that he is in it for the wrong reasons. Like it's a competition to be with the Church with the craziest history and government.

I tried to invite him to my Baptist Church for one day, because I feel his passion and core beliefs really would fit there, but he said he didn't like that Baptist Churches followed too many traditions -_-

I don't know what to do with this. I care for and love him so much, but I worry this denomination is clouding the Truth from him.

I'm sorry, but when the entire Church government is focusing on whether or not to make God non-gender in all their Bible's, I feel like they've completely missed the point of Faith.

How can I talk to him without triggering a defensive mechanism in him? I don't want to put down anyone's denomination or anything, but it hurts me to see misdirected passion going to waste

It is all vanity. All denominations are by default ran by men who want control. Focus on Jesus, study his word, and pray for others. Pray for personal discernment that the Holy Spirit will lead you to all truth.

 

[Kiterius]

Okay dude, not sure if you just have something against me or not, but I'm not arguing with you. I got a real answer from someone who isn't here to pick fights for every little reason. If you don't have anything useful to say, please move on.

First you trash talk a denomination - then you trash talk me. Real example of Christ you are. Later.

 

[MournfulWatcher]

So I have a friend that has a beautiful passion for God, but I can't help but feel that the denomination he is a part of (Episcopal) is blocking him from fulfilling his true potential in Christ.

I'm not trying to say anything bad about the denomination. I don't know much about it, but what my friend has told me makes me think it is basically Catholic.

Now, the issue I think he is having is, the way the Episcopal Church is set up, they have their own system of government and there is a lot of bureaucracy going on. He was going on and on about the hierarchy of the Church and the history of it, but there was nothing that felt like it was for God. I can't help but feel that he is in it for the wrong reasons. Like it's a competition to be with the Church with the craziest history and government.

I tried to invite him to my Baptist Church for one day, because I feel his passion and core beliefs really would fit there, but he said he didn't like that Baptist Churches followed too many traditions -_-

I don't know what to do with this. I care for and love him so much, but I worry this denomination is clouding the Truth from him.

I'm sorry, but when the entire Church government is focusing on whether or not to make God non-gender in all their Bible's, I feel like they've completely missed the point of Faith.

How can I talk to him without triggering a defensive mechanism in him? I don't want to put down anyone's denomination or anything, but it hurts me to see misdirected passion going to waste

You're saying a lot of negative things here about the Episcopal church while not knowing much about it, so how are you capable of judging whether or not the denomination is "clouding the Truth" from your friend? That's an awfully judgmental statement. I highly recommend doing your own research about the Episcopal/Anglican church. I was nondenominational before I started reading more about the church's history and beliefs, and then attended an Episcopal church's communion service which I found to be extraordinary (although I would call myself Anglican rather than Episcopalian; the two are very similar but the Episcopal church recently split due to conflicts between those who were liberal in their theology and those who were more orthodox. So now there's the Episcopal church and the Anglican Church of North America, which tends to be more theologically conservative than the Episcopal Church, although there are still conservative Episcopalian churches.)

 

[GingerBeer]

So I have a friend that has a beautiful passion for God, but I can't help but feel that the denomination he is a part of (Episcopal) is blocking him from fulfilling his true potential in Christ.

I'm not trying to say anything bad about the denomination. I don't know much about it, but what my friend has told me makes me think it is basically Catholic.

Now, the issue I think he is having is, the way the Episcopal Church is set up, they have their own system of government and there is a lot of bureaucracy going on. He was going on and on about the hierarchy of the Church and the history of it, but there was nothing that felt like it was for God. I can't help but feel that he is in it for the wrong reasons. Like it's a competition to be with the Church with the craziest history and government.

I tried to invite him to my Baptist Church for one day, because I feel his passion and core beliefs really would fit there, but he said he didn't like that Baptist Churches followed too many traditions -_-

I don't know what to do with this. I care for and love him so much, but I worry this denomination is clouding the Truth from him.

I'm sorry, but when the entire Church government is focusing on whether or not to make God non-gender in all their Bible's, I feel like they've completely missed the point of Faith.

How can I talk to him without triggering a defensive mechanism in him? I don't want to put down anyone's denomination or anything, but it hurts me to see misdirected passion going to waste

Is there no hierarchy in your denomination (Baptist)? No politics? No worldly ambitions and greed?

Why do you feel qualified to fix your Episcopal friend?

 

[GingerBeer]

I only stated the Catholic thing in case someone doesn't know what Episcopal is. They are very closely related, at least based off of what my friend said.

I doubt that many Episcopalian people would say "I'm a Catholic" if by Catholic they meant a Roman Catholic.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Your friend, while not enjoying original and complete Christianty, is much closer to it than any Protestant church, including your own. What is your reason for thinking that a Baptist church would be any better for him than a Methodist or Presbyterian or any of the other unauthorized manmade denominational churches that have defected from the Church Jesus Christ founded, during the past few hundred years? Everyone seems to believe that the church they belong to is genuine, and that its teaching is true. However, in a system of thousands of conflicting denominations there is really no rational reason to think that. The teaching of each denomination conflicts with the teaching of the others, and truth cannot conflict with truth. Which is why Jesus Christ founded only ONE Church, said it was to remain ONE, and promised that ONE Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth i bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Today, 2,000 years later, that ONE Church remains ONE in belief, ONE in teaching, ONE in biblical understanding, ONE in worship throughout the world, with NO conflicting denominations, just as our Lord and Savior intended. The Episcopal church is just one step removed from that original Church and the fullness of God's truth, while your church is several steps removed.

 

[Angeldove97]

Have you studied how Jesus Christ set up the Church on earth? I would suggest that you look into how He set it up and how it continued to develop after His death and resurrection. There is a reason the early Church is the way it is and continues to be set up like that in the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and some Protestant churches. (We all fall under one universal/catholic Church - I just use the big C for a specific "grouping".)

 

[Angeldove97]

I doubt that many Episcopalian people would say "I'm a Catholic" if by Catholic they meant a Roman Catholic.

Quite of a few of my Lutheran friends do refer to their church as "Catholic Light". I have gone to a baptism ceremony in a Lutheran church and there were many similarities to what I would see happening in a Catholic church.

 

[GingerBeer]

Quite of a few of my Lutheran friends do refer to their church as "Catholic Light". I have gone to a baptism ceremony in a Lutheran church and there were many similarities to what I would see happening in a Catholic church.

Similarities yes, that is to be expected in Lutheran and Episcopal churches when compared to Catholic churches because all of them are liturgical and follow a liturgy that is similar by design. Yet only a few Lutherans and a few Episcopalian people would say that they were Catholic and mean "Roman Catholic".

 

[seeking.IAM]

A quick search of the web says the Baptist movement began in 1609. I find it interesting when a church comes along 1609 years after the birth of Christianity and tells those that came before it that they have been doing it wrong all that time. That has never made sense to me. Perhaps OP might do some research about traditional Christianity and what episcopacy means as to church structure. Perhaps you OP might even visit an Episcopal Church to decide before declaring a position based upon another's statements.

 

[All4Christ]

Hi Karen. Welcome to Christian Forums! If you need any help or guidance, feel free to ask.

First, I recommend praying for your friend. That’s something we should do for all of us, no matter what church or denomination we attend. Second, I recommend finding out more about your friend’s church before judging it. Also, know that God can work with us no matter where we are. God may not lead your friend to be Baptist - but that doesn’t mean that your friend can’t serve Christ.

It’s good that you care about your friend All that said, praying is the best thing to do. Pray for God’s will, not specifically for your friend to become Baptist. Pray that your friend and you both learn to follow God more every day.

I hope this helps!

 

[Dave G.]

Have you studied how Jesus Christ set up the Church on earth? I would suggest that you look into how He set it up and how it continued to develop after His death and resurrection. There is a reason the early Church is the way it is and continues to be set up like that in the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and some Protestant churches. (We all fall under one universal/catholic Church - I just use the big C for a specific "grouping".)

It's interesting that you pointed out catholic with a small c, because that is a very significant distinction to be made compared with Roman Catholic. So much can be spoken of about this difference that can be found in researching history. You don't very often find a Roman Catholic who will go there. I've kept that distinction under my belt for a long time and I won't generally go there LOL.

 

[aiki]

How can I talk to him without triggering a defensive mechanism in him? I don't want to put down anyone's denomination or anything, but it hurts me to see misdirected passion going to waste

I can't think of a denomination that would be farther from the Baptist one than the Episcopal denomination. In my city anyway, it has become the "religious" mouthpiece of all things leftist and "progressive." In particular, the Episcopal churches where I live ride the hobby-horses of "cultural relevancy" and LGBTQ rights constantly. As a life-long Baptist, I find the doctrinal compromises of the Episcopal Church abhorrent. I would warn you that, if the Episcopalian churches in my area are anything to go by, anyone devoted to this denomination is going to be a detriment to your walk with the Lord. I would direct you to 2 Corinthian 6:14-18 for further consideration.

 

[rrguy]

I know that...

My point is, God being male or female DOES NOT MATTER when it comes to eternal life and salvation. The fact that an entire Church Government is choosing to focus on that as opposed to going out and spreading the gospel is extremely worrisome. It should be worrisome to all Christians because ultimately, in the eyes of non believers, we are all the same.

So, do we hold our fellow Christians accountable? Or not?

Why isn’t it important? How can one believe in, follow or worship something you don’t know? If I claim to know love etc... someone or I think one should try & figure out who this is & come to know them???

 

[seeking.IAM]

Why isn’t it important? How can one believe in, follow or worship something you don’t know? If I claim to know love etc... someone or I think one should try & figure out who this is & come to know them???

This verse talks about not believers not being yoked with unbelievers. Episcopalians are believers, so your scriptural reference is not applicable to this instance.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I only stated the Catholic thing in case someone doesn't know what Episcopal is. They are very closely related, at least based off of what my friend said.

There will be a few Catholic individuals that go all looney with the personal pronouns they use in reference to God, but we aren't going to be changing to please them. There are indeed similarities between the anglocatholic wing of the Episcopalians and the Catholic Church, but theologically a huge difference between the Episcopalian liberal wing and the Catholic Church. What would probably help you understand your friend is to figure out whether he or she is in the liberal wing, the evangelical wing, or the anglocatholic wing.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...What would probably help you understand your friend is to figure out whether he or she is in the liberal wing, the evangelical wing, or the anglocatholic wing.

Also, consider that the Episcopal Church is not monolithic. We are a big tent church. Within a particular congregation you are likely to find it all. My church is high church, Anglo-Catholic. Yet we have conservatives, liberals, straights, and gays. We have folks with different sentiments about the controversial issues of our time -- guns, abortion, ordination of women, as well as LGBT inclusion in the church, in marriage, and in the priesthood. Episcopalians are united by common prayer, liturgy, and worship while tolerating differences in other areas. It allows me as an old, straight religious traditionalist/political liberal to share the pew and the common cup with both a right-wing conservative on one side of me and a gay person on the other. And few seem to mind because we are bound by what we share in common, not by how we are different.