tactile sensory units, 2

SLP

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A local creationist (probably with an engineering background) keeps repeating a mantra that "tactile sensory units" implies/proves that humans/living things were created because things with the same descriptive name are made by humans.


This creationist writes that he can present the evidence that this is so, but only seems capable of repeating the mantra/slogan.

In living things, a "tactile sensory unit" is a term used to describe the receptive field of a surface - skin, for example. Within skin, there are numerous types of cells that can generate action potentials (directly or indirectly) in response to various types of stimuli. There are, for example, dendrite-like structures surrounded by a cluster of cells that, when mechanically deformed (bent), will allow for the opening of sodium channels on its membrane to ultimately produce an impulse that travels to the brain where it is interpreted (in this example as light touch - a pacinian corpuscle).


This is, apparently, so very much like a microchip-controlled piezo-electic device that can respond to pressure that creationists insist that the analogy between the two means that both were deigned (since we know that the human made one was deigned and made by humans).

There are currently exactly ZERO known examples of biological structures that were designed or made by anyone or anything.

Thus, the argument being employed is a strained analogy presented as evidence - the claim that both the biological TSU and the human made TSU exhibit "design characteristics" or some such gibberish that therefore the conclusion is design.

I have asked a couple of times for this creationist to compare the structures of these things and to show that the biological TSU is designed, but all I get are assertions.


This is actually nothing new or novel.

About 12 years ago, I was in a conversation on another forum with a creationist who made a child's toy as a project in college, and he made the same basic claim - that because he used design principles on this toy, and living things look designed to him, that they were similar and therefore designed. Pretty naive stuff, but he could produce nothing more than a repetition of his slogans, just like the creationist on this forum today.

The saddest part is that they actually seem to think that they have made some kind of major argument.


Anyway - here is the chance to lay out the argument.

Lets see the actual evidence and the rationale - not just repetition of the mantra. Because after all - mantras are no more evidence than are analogies.
 

justlookinla

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A local creationist (probably with an engineering background) keeps repeating a mantra that "tactile sensory units" implies/proves that humans/living things were created because things with the same descriptive name are made by humans.


This creationist writes that he can present the evidence that this is so, but only seems capable of repeating the mantra/slogan.

In living things, a "tactile sensory unit" is a term used to describe the receptive field of a surface - skin, for example. Within skin, there are numerous types of cells that can generate action potentials (directly or indirectly) in response to various types of stimuli. There are, for example, dendrite-like structures surrounded by a cluster of cells that, when mechanically deformed (bent), will allow for the opening of sodium channels on its membrane to ultimately produce an impulse that travels to the brain where it is interpreted (in this example as light touch - a pacinian corpuscle).


This is, apparently, so very much like a microchip-controlled piezo-electic device that can respond to pressure that creationists insist that the analogy between the two means that both were deigned (since we know that the human made one was deigned and made by humans).

There are currently exactly ZERO known examples of biological structures that were designed or made by anyone or anything.

Thus, the argument being employed is a strained analogy presented as evidence - the claim that both the biological TSU and the human made TSU exhibit "design characteristics" or some such gibberish that therefore the conclusion is design.

I have asked a couple of times for this creationist to compare the structures of these things and to show that the biological TSU is designed, but all I get are assertions.


This is actually nothing new or novel.

About 12 years ago, I was in a conversation on another forum with a creationist who made a child's toy as a project in college, and he made the same basic claim - that because he used design principles on this toy, and living things look designed to him, that they were similar and therefore designed. Pretty naive stuff, but he could produce nothing more than a repetition of his slogans, just like the creationist on this forum today.

The saddest part is that they actually seem to think that they have made some kind of major argument.


Anyway - here is the chance to lay out the argument.

Lets see the actual evidence and the rationale - not just repetition of the mantra. Because after all - mantras are no more evidence than are analogies.

Here's the 89 pager on Tactile Sensory Units which answers your concerns.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7873846/
 
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SLP

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Here's the 89 pager on Tactile Sensory Units which answers your concerns.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7873846/

Yes, I already read that, which is why I know all you have is repeated slogans and question begging and analogy.


"Designed systems have element of design."


WHAT "element" of design?

All you did in that thread is assert that everything that goes into the human manufacture of the chip is JUST LIKE (without actually explaining how) what happens in the human body.


As I've said - your repetitious gibberish may awe like-minded pew warmers, but to those that actually understand the biology, it just comes across as naive wishful-thinking based analogy.
 
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D

DerelictJunction

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Yes, I already read that, which is why I know all you have is repeated slogans and question begging and analogy.


"Designed systems have element of design."


WHAT "element" of design?

All you did in that thread is assert that everything that goes into the human manufacture of the chip is JUST LIKE (without actually explaining how) what happens in the human body.


As I've said - your repetitious gibberish may awe like-minded pew warmers, but to those that actually understand the biology, it just comes across as naive wishful-thinking based analogy.
Just chiming in to wish you luck and much patience.
It is unlikely in the extreme that you will get anything other than what was presented in that thread. The abject lack of understanding regarding design and construction of electronic systems, and human physiology dominated the one side of the conversation. You will get no more because it is not there to be offered.
 
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SkyWriting

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There are currently exactly ZERO known examples of biological structures that were designed or made by anyone or anything.

Other than:

Ear
Heart Valve
Kidney
Spine disk
Skin
Bone
Skull
Jaw
Trachea
Lungs
Liver
Blood Vessels

Please See Page 40

ISSUU - Toantritue smithsonian magazine may 2015 by Toan Tri Tue Brainpower


You may be thinking of my comment that no such structures
have been created, or can be created, that improve over the natural versions.
That is correct.
 
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bhsmte

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As I've said - your repetitious gibberish may awe like-minded pew warmers, but to those that actually understand the biology, it just comes across as naive wishful-thinking based analogy.

When you are dealing with a fundie, this is what you are going to get, because it is all they have.
 
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SkyWriting

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Lets see the actual evidence and the rationale -

The rationale is based on reality....but not the one you enjoy.


As you travel through time and space studying the Cosmos
from the perspective of...lets say.. a Time Lord...what you
discover is that there is no engineering going on.

Throughout virtually all of time and space....you find nothing
"built" or "designed" anywhere.

You travel for billions of years and billions of light years in
space and you find nothing untill you catch the radio signals
from earth.

Earth is the only radio station putting out an intelligent signal.

So when you finally get here, after your billion years of travel
and searching, you are pleased to finally find life.

From your billion years of experience, you are quite wise.

You recognise that something intelligent happened here.

Because the rest of the Cosmos is dumb as a rock. Literally.

So to avoid Mantras and blather.....just stick with the facts that
you have in hand. Life is designed and a joy to reverse-engineer!
 
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Loudmouth

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The rationale is based on reality....but not the one you enjoy.


As you travel through time and space studying the Cosmos
from the perspective of...lets say.. a Time Lord...what you
discover is that there is no engineering going on.

Throughout virtually all of time and space....you find nothing
"built" or "designed" anywhere.

You travel for billions of years and billions of light years in
space and you find nothing untill you catch the radio signals
from earth.

Earth is the only radio station putting out an intelligent signal.

So when you finally get here, after your billion years of travel
and searching, you are pleased to finally find life.

From your billion years of experience, you are quite wise.

You recognise that something intelligent happened here.

Because the rest of the Cosmos is dumb as a rock. Literally.

So to avoid Mantras and blather.....just stick with the facts that
you have in hand. Life is designed and a joy to reverse-engineer!

Let's get this straight. You tell us to focus on reality, and then you use a made up story about a Time Lord. You also have made the claim that the Earth is the only planet in the cosmos pumping out narrowband radio waves, but offer no evidence to back it up. To top it all off, you then compare life to radio waves for no apparent reason.

Perhaps you can start over with some real evidence?
 
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SkyWriting

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"Designed systems have element of design."
WHAT "element" of design?

Here is the methodology:

2013-updated_engineering-method-steps_v6b_noheader.png



Here are some design elements:

Apply concepts and methods learned in Statics, Strength of Materials and Engineering Materials to the analysis and design of mechanical components.

Determine suitable material and size for structural components in machines, including effects of fatigue and stress concentration.

Logically choose and defend choice of design factor.

Analyze and specify different mechanical components such as gears, fluid film bearing, rolling element bearings, screws, pulleys and springs.

Make basic design decisions regarding the suitability of different materials in mechanical components, e.g. steel vs. aluminum.

Make basic design decisions regarding the suitability of different components in a mechanical system, e.g. ball bearings vs. fluid film bearings.

ENME 400 ? Elements of Machine Design | Mechanical Engineering


engagedesign_3.gif
 
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justlookinla

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Yes, I already read that, which is why I know all you have is repeated slogans and question begging and analogy.


"Designed systems have element of design."


WHAT "element" of design?

All you did in that thread is assert that everything that goes into the human manufacture of the chip is JUST LIKE (without actually explaining how) what happens in the human body.


As I've said - your repetitious gibberish may awe like-minded pew warmers, but to those that actually understand the biology, it just comes across as naive wishful-thinking based analogy.

Elements of design seen in the tactile sensory units. Complexity, functionality and purpose.
 
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justlookinla

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:wave:

Where did you demonstrate that these elements only come from design?

I pointed out that they are elements of design design only comes from intelligence, as seen by the evidence.

If you have examples, with evidence, that a willy-nilly, haphazard creative force is the creator of tactile sensory units, please present it.
 
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Loudmouth

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I pointed out that they are elements of design design only comes from intelligence, as seen by the evidence.

What evidence do you have that these elements can only come about through intelligence?

If you have examples, with evidence, that a willy-nilly, haphazard creative force is the creator of tactile sensory units, please present it.

It is your burden of proof to support your own claims.
 
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justlookinla

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What evidence do you have that these elements can only come about through intelligence?

It is your burden of proof to support your own claims.[/QUOTE]

I have. I've presented the elements which can only be attributed to intelligence.

Conversely, I have no evidence that tactile sensory units are created by a willy-nilly, haphazard, mindless creative force. And neither do you.
 
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