Spirits Everywhere!

[churchlady]

Not mystified by NOW. Mystified by BACK THEN, the original incidence. At the time this happened, the activities you mention as "sufficient to allow demons to enter" did not exist. Anything that had gone on prior to coming to Christ at 16 (e.g. such as doing drugs) had literally been done in total spiritual ignorance (not knowing spiritual truth or Him) and should have been under HIS blood since it came to Him. It did have some struggles with things but again, nothing that it did not give over to Him continually in repentance and prayer and it bes sincere it did not want them things (like short temper for example) but it did not have control over them yet at that point so it did stumble at times yes. But not the same thing as just sinning because you feel like it and don't care, it bes an actual struggle, surely the rest of you have those too but you don't end up infested as a result so why should Moriah's back then have been any different? And any thing it slipped up in, it DID confess and repent. So it did not live in any kind of unconfessed or unrepented / unrenounced sin. It knew the specific areas of its difficulty and while it did not have "victory" at those yet it kept those things before God given over to Him in agreement with Him about it all.
It didn't know anything about demons at the time all it knew bes that its entire reality bes ripping inside out, it bes terrified, no one could help and when it tried to explain to ppls what bes going on all kinds of trouble ensued, not the least of which being people started making up lies claiming it just bes trying to get attention or pity and that really really hurt. It did not then nor has it ever since had any such thing in mind at all, but back then that first time it just bes terrified and didn't know where to get help. It prayed on its own but God didnt answer anymore and when it prayed things would get weird --
-- you just had to have been there. And you bes not, so it can never explain adequately enough to avoid being misjudged or have people think "oh no it could NOT have been blahblahblah it HAD to have been da da da instead". No, it bes exactly as it says.

Anyway not your problem to fix -- you asked, it answered -- just forget about it. Should never have said anything AS USUAL but it gets really really tired of all the insinuations and innuendo.

My post wasn't about insunuations or innuendos. It was to clear up something about how demons enter a person......any person, not just you.

They don't come out of nowhere and just lay seige to a person and take them over without some means to do so.

If they come into a child, for instance, they may come in through sexual abuse or trauma - no fault of the child, but the poor child may have them nonetheless and need deliverance.

As you said that someone counseled you, they may possibly have come into you, at an earlier time when you were a small child.

If they came in through hallucinative drugs, they may still remain in the vessel, even though the person gets saved, has already quit doing drugs, has repented to God for ever doing them, has been forgiven through the blood of Jesus.

At that point, the person can be in right standing with the Lord, seeking God with all her heart, desiring purity of life, but still need deliverance to get rid of what came in before salvation occurred.

The reason for my post is to make clear that demons don't just lay seige and take over someone. If they could do that, we'd all be full of them, as that is what they want to do.

I'm not doubting that you got saved at 16, prayed, and repented, and wanted to turn from all sin and to live right. It was not about a judgement on you.

I wanted to clear up the idea of 'demons taking a person for no reason' that many times seems (at least to me), to be conveyed whenever you talk about your initial experience with demons. I'm sure that's what it felt like to you, but it is not scripturally sound. Perhaps you don't even realize that is how it comes across.

 

[pinetree]

My post wasn't about insunuations or innuendos. It was to clear up something about how demons enter a person......any person, not just you.

They don't come out of nowhere and just lay seige to a person and take them over without some means to do so.

If they come into a child, for instance, they may come in through sexual abuse or trauma - no fault of the child, but the poor child may have them nonetheless and need deliverance.

As you said that someone counseled you, they may possibly have come into you, at an earlier time when you were a small child.

If they came in through hallucinative drugs, they may still remain in the vessel, even though the person gets saved, has already quit doing drugs, has repented to God for ever doing them, has been forgiven through the blood of Jesus.

At that point, the person can be in right standing with the Lord, seeking God with all her heart, desiring purity of life, but still need deliverance to get rid of what came in before salvation occurred.

The reason for my post is to make clear that demons don't just lay seige and take over someone. If they could do that, we'd all be full of them, as that is what they want to do.

I'm not doubting that you got saved at 16, prayed, and repented, and wanted to turn from all sin and to live right. It was not about a judgement on you.

I wanted to clear up the idea of 'demons taking a person for no reason' that many times seems (at least to me), to be conveyed whenever you talk about your initial experience with demons. I'm sure that's what it felt like to you, but it is not scripturally sound. Perhaps you don't even realize that is how it comes across.

Can you prove that scripturaly?

See,this is what happens when we have armchair teachings..

Where are you getting that from?

 

[churchlady]

Can you prove that scripturaly?

See,this is what happens when we have armchair teachings..

Where are you getting that from?

If you are accusing me of 'armchair teachings', then state your scriptural case.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

After reading through this thread maybe some things need to be considered.

1. The incidents recorded in the Gospels are about people who might have believed in Jesus, such as James, John, Peter, etc.

However as Jesus death, burial and resurrection had not occurred, the new birth was not available, therefore the Holy Spirit did not reside in them.

2. There are differences in a spirit(evil) inhabiting a person and harassing them(oppress,obsess, depress).

Inhabiting a person is internal as harassing is external done through the thought process.

A born again believe cannot be inhabited by evils spirits but can be harassed.

Even to the point of committing suicide.

True. Having experienced both, however (external oppression/harassment and inhabitation) it would have to say if/when They get inside, you will definitely know it. Then of course there may be in between states where they "attach themselves" and/or manipulate the brain or nervous system even if not entirely inside but who knows? The logistics of trans-dimensional geo-coordinates (so to speak) don't matter much, really, when it comes to dealing with the problem itself.

If they can act just as powerfully upon their prey from "outside" as well as "inside" then they may as well be inside at that point. Driving someone to suicide bes about as powerful as it gets; the only thing worse being to bring to such levels of intense suffering and despair that they continually yearn to kill themselves and then by further manipulation of mind or body, entirely prevent them from acting on it. A marginal percentage of those who self-harm experience this dynamic rather than doing it for the usual "physical pain relieves emotional pain" based rationales......

Anyway point being -- Control = control = control whether done by pressing the actual buttons on the panel itself or by using a remote device geared to accomplish that. We live in a reality where 99% of the time circumstances control and dictate to us entirely and we never even realize it or see whether we have options that lay entirely outside the parameters of our own thought processes and perceptions at that moment. If inanimate things like that can remote control us, it would not be infeasible to postulate that intelligent things with nefarious designs can figure out how to do so as well, whether working through those inanimate things or through other devices and means.

Whether ppls wanna call it exorcism, deliverance, inner healing, rebuking, whatever. The issue remains the same: the symbiosis must be penetrated and severed; their presence must be exposed; the mechanisms, structures, "strongholds" empowering their control must be discovered, deconstructed and dismantled; the one they have infested must be brought through prayer and the active agency of the Holy Spirit to a place where they can think and feel separate from that control at least long enough to want free of it and express that; their control must be broken through the deliverance process (casting out); healing and resolution must take place for the individual; and most importantly of all the individual's mind must be thoroughly renewed -- which takes time, a lot of time, and careful effort deprogramming the lies (the brain literally has been hardwired to default to this setting at this point so it must be a consistent and persistent endeavor done with much patience and care, and it bes NOT something the individual can do all alone) as well as replacing them with reinforcement of God's truth, to seal the places where the demonic could reinfest and keep that from happening.

This would not be something an individual can accomplish by themselves if they find themselves in this condition. It would take compassionate, caring ministry from other members of the Body as well. Being alone, being isolated, trying to do something entirely alone, those bes ripe conditions for them to have a field day. God meant for people to live interdependently. Not dependent on others, not independent from others either, but interdependently in a dynamic and organic social relation of need and generosity, give and take, continually flowing in love. That bes how He can reach through people to touch other people. People who go it alone wither and die -- all branches must be plugged into the vine and exist as part of that vine, branches which separate wither and die

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

My post wasn't about insunuations or innuendos. It was to clear up something about how demons enter a person......any person, not just you.

No it did not mean your post here by this. It means stuff it has encountered here at CF in general off & on particularly over the past year.

They don't come out of nowhere and just lay seige to a person and take them over without some means to do so.

If they come into a child, for instance, they may come in through sexual abuse or trauma - no fault of the child, but the poor child may have them nonetheless and need deliverance.

As you said that someone counseled you, they may possibly have come into you, at an earlier time when you were a small child.

If that bes the case then it thinks they may have first entered at the age of 3 as the result of repeated misuse of parental authority for personal satisfaction and agenda. It suffered trauma through the repeated cumulative effect of this as well as it remembers a specific explosive emotional trauma where its world split in two ... and shortly thereafter it had the experiences it describes as its first contacts with them though at the time obviously it had no idea what bes happening in any objective sense. All it knew being that it despised the nasty villagers with torches and wanted to protect the big bad wolf from them. Because it bes a talking wolf, you see, and it bes wrong to just slaughter for a monster anything that can talk -- which means it has intelligence, which means you can reason with it instead and ought to be striking a bargain of mutual benefit to both parties instead of automatically considering yourself right and better and thinking that gives you the right to just randomly and wantonly slaughter anything that displeases you. Yes, that bes precisely its thoughts at the age of 3. Children that age presumably do not have abstract reasoning abilities let alone advanced MORAL theories WAY outside the box, but Moriah did.
He also taught it how to appease the evil spirits that lived in the doorknobs (childhood fear of its own) through the use of autoerotic energies and death posturing.
But being 3 it did nothing to ask for any of this. They chose it.

If they came in through hallucinative drugs, they may still remain in the vessel, even though the person gets saved, has already quit doing drugs, has repented to God for ever doing them, has been forgiven through the blood of Jesus.

At that point, the person can be in right standing with the Lord, seeking God with all her heart, desiring purity of life, but still need deliverance to get rid of what came in before salvation occurred.

OK honest question then, WHY? Why would not coming to Christ and having sincere repentance and renouncing and being forgiven NOT be enough. Why would the blood of Jesus EVER not be enough??? Especially when we bes talksybout things done in a state of spiritual ignorance.

The reason for my post is to make clear that demons don't just lay seige and take over someone. If they could do that, we'd all be full of them, as that is what they want to do.

OK, point taken, and you make a good point here. BUT by the same token, if the blood of Christ bes not enough to cover those things above don't we get left with the same dilemma?? Because by that reasoning then EVERY Christian who has sin in their past and/or struggles with some type of sin in their walk could just be taken over and we'd all be just as full of demons as in the scenario of laying siege & taking over for "no" reason. Point being, ascribing the reasons you ascribe does not remove the dilemma, it still postulates why don't eveyrone gets taken over then???

I'm not doubting that you got saved at 16, prayed, and repented, and wanted to turn from all sin and to live right. It was not about a judgement on you.

I wanted to clear up the idea of 'demons taking a person for no reason' that many times seems (at least to me), to be conveyed whenever you talk about your initial experience with demons. I'm sure that's what it felt like to you, but it is not scripturally sound. Perhaps you don't even realize that is how it comes across.

Yes, that bes how it experienced these things. It recognized even at the time not knowing WHAT bes happening that the THINGS that bes going on did not line up with scripture; that proved to be the most traumatic experience out of all of it, to have finally found the truth and been made one with Christ only to have THAT torn apart and severed and ripped out from beneath one's feet, even to the point of having God appear to be "proven" a liar or false to His word, what thing (a) bes impossible theologically and scripturally; (b) cannot be proven to anyone else if you suffer that experience; (c) nobody will believe you as it becomes your word against God's and of course no one will listen to you at that point as they would all think you intend to teach falsehoods and destroy their faith etc. they don't realize you bes TRAPPED in there having this experience you DONT want, what SCARES you to DEATH and you can find NO WAY OUT because like Job, the only "way out" seems to be blaming yourself for it all but you KNOW, like Job, that you have been as upright as humanly possible in all your dealings, and done NOTHING to bring this on.

 

[churchlady]

the one they have infested must be brought through prayer and the active agency of the Holy Spirit to a place where they can think and feel separate from that control at least long enough to want free of it and express that;

the individual's mind must be thoroughly renewed --

This would not be something an individual can accomplish by themselves if they find themselves in this condition.

Excellent word!

 

[ARBITER01]

yes,sure,both temples have the Spirit..

But we as humans,have been infilled..

Thanks for the input..

But do you see what i am trying to say..

What you did, is what alot of well meaning folks do,they extrapolate a whole idea,from something that is not really there..

ie,the story in your post.

Hoe does that show that a spirit filled believer can be inhabitated?

Joe, is there a scripture that says we can never be infiltrated by evil spirits?

You are wanting explicit scripture that says we can, do you have explicit scripture that says we can't?

And I did not extrapolate a story or idea here, the temple in Israel's day is clearly seen as the believer since Paul relates us with them in his letters.

 

[pinetree]

If you are accusing me of 'armchair teachings', then state your scriptural case.

the op asks,for scriptural evidence..thanks.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

the op asks,for scriptural evidence..thanks.

Joe, is there a scripture that says we can never be infiltrated by evil spirits?

You are wanting explicit scripture that says we can, do you have explicit scripture that says we can't?

Now now now Brother Pinetree ... Quid Pro Quo!

 

[pinetree]

Joe, is there a scripture that says we can never be infiltrated by evil spirits?

You are wanting explicit scripture that says we can, do you have explicit scripture that says we can't?

And I did not extrapolate a story or idea here, the temple in Israel's day is clearly seen as the believer since Paul relates us with them in his letters.

Yes,but I think it is fair,to state that the example you gave,does not in anyway,prove the point..

Look at your post,how does one transfer that story,into a scriptural evidence,that a born again,spirit filled believer,can be have a spirit..

Explain that please..

We are one Spirit with the Lord...

If he is in us,and his Kingdom can not be divided,then how can we have 2 reidents in our temple,meaning us?

 

[pinetree]

After reading through this thread maybe some things need to be considered.

1. The incidents recorded in the Gospels are about people who might have believed in Jesus, such as James, John, Peter, etc.

However as Jesus death, burial and resurrection had not occurred, the new birth was not available, therefore the Holy Spirit did not reside in them.

2. There are differences in a spirit(evil) inhabiting a person and harassing them(oppress,obsess, depress).

Inhabiting a person is internal as harassing is external done through the thought process.

A born again believe cannot be inhabited by evils spirits but can be harassed.

Even to the point of committing suicide.

interesting words...

seems like we are pretty close..

I think often though,the soul,which can contain much pain,often can create sever depression,and the unknowness,or misunderstanding of the soul,creates the issue,where one thinks it is a spirit.

However,I respect the fact that I was not around everyones experience,and there perceptions are there business,not mine..

 

[pinetree]

seems like if folks,are going to go into all this,it is fair to ask for scriptural evidence...

Otherwise,we just have theory,and conjecture....very heresay..

And it is purely personal subjective..

Everything else on the forum,and in the church,usually has a scriptural base..

Why not this important issue?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Excellent word!

Thanks.
It actually manage talksy God a little last night (it really hurts so it can't do that for much long but a friend INSIST it try, try, TRY and so the first instant it noticed any thought outside the Abyss it seized this and went with it) and when it did it told Him it wanted out of here. Which it does -- it just has a very very hard time admitting this because (a) it honestly can no longer believe it possible that it could ever really be free from this; and (b) it feels so very wrong, like it bes lying to say it wants out, because of how fiercely THEY make it LIKE this. They even make it enjoy the torture. But God told Moriah specifically that this bes not Moriah but THEM. They do this to Moriah which means if they bes gone this would stop happening and it would not be this way by itself. That He saw and said this, makes for hope. Its default would be to perceive itself one of Them, one with Them, incapable of redemption or rehabilitation. But if existing that way truly indeed bes entirely a product of Them inhabiting then if They gets taken out all that would (or should?) go with Them.

 

[pinetree]

Now now now Brother Pinetree ... Quid Pro Quo!

brother pinetree does not give quick pro quo's

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Yes,but I think it is fair,to state that the example you gave,does not in anyway,prove the point..

Look at your post,how does one transfer that story,into a scriptural evidence,that a born again,spirit filled believer,can be have a spirit..

Explain that please..

We are one Spirit with the Lord...

If he is in us,and his Kingdom can not be divided,then how can we have 2 reidents in our temple,meaning us?

Well you have already partially answered your OP IN the OP by referring to the flesh run amuck.

The Holy Spirit has no problem indwelling sinful flesh and sharing space in there with a carnal mind, which as we know Scripture states bes at enmity against God and cannot be subject to God's law.

Granted, that would be human flesh nature and carnal mind but they share this one thing in common with demonkind: both exist in sin.

If it bes possible for the Holy Spirit to indwell sinful human flesh sharing the temple of the human body with a sinful carnal mind or carnal nature (which will not go away until the redeemed get new bodies or forms free of sin), then it stands to reason that other sinful critters could equally dwell in the same flesh and even claim "territorial rights" to be there based on the struggles of the individual against specific sins (though those claims would, of course, be legalistic lies!)

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

seems like if folks,are going to go into all this,it is fair to ask for scriptural evidence...

Otherwise,we just have theory,and conjecture....very heresay..

And it is purely personal subjective..

Everything else on the forum,and in the church,usually has a scriptural base..

Why not this important issue?

Well, can you provide a scriptural basis for unequivocally stating in no uncertain terms that it would be impossible for someone born again and spirit filled to be overtaken at all, ever, under any circumstances?

Scripture seems to indicate at the very least that even after becoming born again and spirit filled things can happen quite against that --

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
​

Granted this does not specify "demonic possession" but it DOES illustrate that being born again AND spirit-filled offers no absolute guarantee against that individual ever winding up falling from grace and therefore, by extension, into such a condition as would require a renewed repentance at the very least. Would it be inconceivable to think that at that point they could possibly get taken over by demons despite having experienced BOTH being born again AND being Spirit-filled PRIOR to that?

 

[jeolmstead]

Consider this scripture:

1After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.


You would assume that this happened before she was a Christian, why? The scripture does not say when, just that they were cast out.

You have no problem with the reality that Christians get sick, this largely because the world is filled with examples of such.

I can build the same theological argument that says Christians can’t get sick, (yet they do)

At one time I believed a Christian could not be demonized, the problem is, I kept running into Christians who were. (This would include myself and my wife).

The only power a demon has over anyone is that which it steals from it’s host. But, they are very good at what they do! If they hide as a part of your personality you will never address them. You’ll only beat yourself up trying to crucify your flesh. (They love that)

If exposed, they will claim to have dominion over you. (If you believe them they will.)

If Christians can’t have demons, who else would be served by casting them out? A lost man has no power to be free why would I cast a demon out of him?. According to Jesus such a man would ultimately be seven times worse.

I’m thankful for the freedom I’ve experienced. More then this, I’m thankful for how my wife was set free. I am eternally grateful. If I have to suffer being thought a fool, well then so be it. It is a small price to pay

John O.

 

[pinetree]

Well you have already partially answered your OP IN the OP by referring to the flesh run amuck.

The Holy Spirit has no problem indwelling sinful flesh and sharing space in there with a carnal mind, which as we know Scripture states bes at enmity against God and cannot be subject to God's law.

Granted, that would be human flesh nature and carnal mind but they share this one thing in common with demonkind: both exist in sin.

If it bes possible for the Holy Spirit to indwell sinful human flesh sharing the temple of the human body with a sinful carnal mind or carnal nature (which will not go away until the redeemed get new bodies or forms free of sin), then it stands to reason that other sinful critters could equally dwell in the same flesh and even claim "territorial rights" to be there based on the struggles of the individual against specific sins (though those claims would, of course, be legalistic lies!)

Again,that is interesting,,,

But it all shows ,if you get enough Chrisitians together,each one would have their own views..

Fine,but it does not have a scriptural base,and everyone should realize that...

It almost has become a doctrine,that does not have roots in scripture..

There are verses that gives evidence to believers about manifestations that God is with them,miracles,tongues,etc..

But none about Christian,Spirit filled believers,being inhabited..

 

[pinetree]

Consider this scripture:

1After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.


You would assume that this happened before she was a Christian, why? The scripture does not say when, just that they were cast out.

You have no problem with the reality that Christians get sick, this largely because the world is filled with examples of such.

I can build the same theological argument that says Christians can’t get sick, (yet they do)

At one time I believed a Christian could not be demonized, the problem is, I kept running into Christians who were. (This would include myself and my wife).

The only power a demon has over anyone is that which it steals from it’s host. But, they are very good at what they do! If they hide as a part of your personality you will never address them. You’ll only beat yourself up trying to crucify your flesh. (They love that)

If exposed, they will claim to have dominion over you. (If you believe them they will.)

If Christians can’t have demons, who else would be served by casting them out? A lost man has no power to be free why would I cast a demon out of him?. According to Jesus such a man would ultimately be seven times worse.

I’m thankful for the freedom I’ve experienced. More then this, I’m thankful for how my wife was set free. I am eternally grateful. If I have to suffer being thought a fool, well then so be it. It is a small price to pay

John O.

Hi John,I totally respect your subjective experience.

I would not mess with it..

But still though,one must agree,this is all based on personal experience,not scripture..

 

[pinetree]

Well, can you provide a scriptural basis for unequivocally stating in no uncertain terms that it would be impossible for someone born again and spirit filled to be overtaken at all, ever, under any circumstances?

Scripture seems to indicate at the very least that even after becoming born again and spirit filled things can happen quite against that --

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
​

Granted this does not specify "demonic possession" but it DOES illustrate that being born again AND spirit-filled offers no absolute guarantee against that individual ever winding up falling from grace and therefore, by extension, into such a condition as would require a renewed repentance at the very least. Would it be inconceivable to think that at that point they could possibly get taken over by demons despite having experienced BOTH being born again AND being Spirit-filled PRIOR to that?

interesting point..

but still does not scriturally prove,what I hear floated about alot..