Spending Billions for Nothing going to Mars.

[GiantGerbil]

If this was really about going to Mars, it would be a cool idea, but you gotta understand that Bush comes from a culture of infinite greed and worldy ambition. This is about selling us a trillion dollar trip to Mars, and Bush's areo-space defense contractors raking in trillions of dollars in effortless profit. We're talkin about a billion dollars for a motor here, a billion dollars for some aluminum pipes there, that's what the space program is really all about now. These contractors sell the space program little blocks of wood for millions of dollars.

To make a mockery of something so universally sacred is blasphemous.

 

[Zlex]

Zlex, I didn't see the Nova broadcast, so thank you for the laugh of the week! FOMCL! I can just hear that conversation in my head I've got to send you blessings and reputation points for that post!

It was an interesting problem. This was a one-off instrument. They had built exactly two, one for each rover. It didn't fail after one harder than design 'whack.' The question is, would it fail during the second 'design' whack, now that it has received the first whack?

You could test by giving it another 'whack.' But, then, will it fail the next time?

They had no way to test to failure. They had no way to test a batch of these things to failure. They had no way to test a set of mock ups of these things to failure. They had, just the things that had to work, first time.


So, they gave it one harder than design 'whack' just to give themselves some confidence. There is some logic in that, in that, if it was going to fail, it was most likely to fail with the first really hard 'whack.' But, there was yet some small chance that the first whack sets up the failure for the second smaller whack, and so on.

It's a face off between probabilities, and the test with first hard whack estimate of that probability won out.

Or else, somebody just thought it would be a good idea to give it a whack, see if it was going to fail, but I doubt that.

Development like that is somewhere between science, engineering judgement, and black art, which is what makes the successful mission such an incredible feat.

 

[NgNm]

Prior to reading this thread I was quite opposed to the space program however after reading the lists of spin offs and other benefits of it I have warmed to the idea and consider it a worthwhile activity. However despite this change of attitude on the subject I would still oppose an expansion of the space program as this time given the state of the deficit.

 

[fungle]

Robert43 did you mean air the same composition as earths or atmosphere?

 

[Invader Pichu]

Robert43:

It's insane to think that Earth is the only planet that possesses life.

 

[HazyRigby]

Why doesn't the Bible say anything about people going out and exploration of space? The Bible says nothing about space travel only talks about earth itself.

I know why. It's because the people who wrote the Bible had no idea about space travel. They were goat-herders, but they still thought that mating goats in front of striped sticks leads to striped kids. They didn't know as much about the world around them as our children do today. And this is the knowledge you embrace?

For your information, if I had a choice as to what my taxes should go to, I would choose something akin to the space program, i.e., something having to do with scientific research. Perhaps you should ask your local multi-million dollar megachurch why someone who makes $10,000 a year should have to pay taxes, but an organization that collectively takes in billions should not. Perhaps if we had fewer "charitable organizations" and more actual concern for the people those charities would help, we'd be better off.

 

[Maddog]

Why doesn't the Bible say anything about people going out and exploration of space? The Bible says nothing about space travel only talks about earth itself.

I know why. It's because the people who wrote the Bible had no idea about space travel. They were goat-herders, but they still thought that mating goats in front of striped sticks leads to striped kids. They didn't know as much about the world around them as our children do today. And this is the knowledge you embrace?.

Let us not also forget that people once believed the Earth to be flat, and did not believe other cultures othere than their own existed on this planet. Also remember the reason that people like Alexander The Great never continued with their travels (for want of a better word), was because they believed all they would find was sea around them. Lucky in Alexander The Greats case though, otherwise Ghengis Kahn and Alexander would of met up at some point.

For your information, if I had a choice as to what my taxes should go to, I would choose something akin to the space program, i.e., something having to do with scientific research. Perhaps you should ask your local multi-million dollar megachurch why someone who makes $10,000 a year should have to pay taxes, but an organization that collectively takes in billions should not. Perhaps if we had fewer "charitable organizations" and more actual concern for the people those charities would help, we'd be better off.

Yes that is an interesting point, especially when someone like Bill Gates has to pay a fortune, and lets not malign him too much in this. He also runs a charitable organisation, that has contributed 38 billion dollars in 5 years, to help immunisation, the starving, wiping out AIDS and Malaria, orphans of war and landmine victims in Third World Countries. Sure he can afford it, and it is a Tax Deduction, however I think he spends it better than the Government would, and lets be serious that money he uses for that would all go to the Government if he did not. Where as most Charitable Organisations only donate 50% of what they raise, bar some like World Vision who only use 15% on Adminastration and raising funds.

 

[christianactor]

THERE IS NOTHING ON MARS. but there is nothing on the moon either! when we went to the moon technology exploded and threw our country into the bigtime.. if we get to mars its just a cymbol to the world. if we spend the money to develope the technology to get there then the same capabilty will progress technology into nothing we have ever seen.

 

[Maddog]

THERE IS NOTHING ON MARS. but there is nothing on the moon either! when we went to the moon technology exploded and threw our country into the bigtime.. if we get to mars its just a cymbol to the world. if we spend the money to develope the technology to get there then the same capabilty will progress technology into nothing we have ever seen.

That was my point exactly on the previous page (Page 12), where I listed some of the side benefits of the technology used to get to the Moon. What could come out of this is unimaginable, as where some of those things I mentioned back in the 1960's.

Also it is not just your country that will explode into the bigtime, look what the Apollo Mission did in Australia as well, if anyone has seen the film The Dish, they know it went beyond one Country. It created employment and wealth in other Countries as well, look how Japanese Technology grew from this. Without the need for smaller chips, circuit boards and the like, we may not have a lot of what we have now. Half the gaming consoles grew out of the need for Flight Simulators for one, and not to mention communication devices and Satellite Technology got better.

 

[Silent Enigma]

Just give the money back to the taxpayers instead of chasing around little green men.

 

[Mac6yver]

Just give the money back to the taxpayers instead of chasing around little green men.

 

[Matt Never Existed]

Wierd.. Ok, I think Nasa is doing something that most people don't take the time to do. They are looking outside of their surroundings and saying "I wonder whats out there..". If you believe that God created everything, who is to say we shouldn't go and find out about the things that HE created for us? What if the view of the starts from mars is the BEST place in the universe to see them? You wouldn't know unless you go look for that exact spot.. If you don't, You're missing out on something great that God made.

While I believe that it costs TONS of money, I believe that if you don't like it, go live in a different country and forget about it. If you want your money to go to starving people, go give it to them. And make sure you REALLY think about it as you drive away in your car, and get to your nice warm home and soft bed.

 

[christianactor]

Sorry maddog I dint take the time to read all the post before writting.. Im a newbie not to just this site but to all message boards in general.

 

[draper]

Just give the money back to the taxpayers instead of chasing around little green men.

LOL.

That's a good joke

 

[Zlex]

That was my point exactly on the previous page (Page 12), where I listed some of the side benefits of the technology used to get to the Moon. What could come out of this is unimaginable, as where some of those things I mentioned back in the 1960's.

Also it is not just your country that will explode into the bigtime, look what the Apollo Mission did in Australia as well, if anyone has seen the film The Dish, they know it went beyond one Country. It created employment and wealth in other Countries as well, look how Japanese Technology grew from this. Without the need for smaller chips, circuit boards and the like, we may not have a lot of what we have now. Half the gaming consoles grew out of the need for Flight Simulators for one, and not to mention communication devices and Satellite Technology got better.

Yes. Net $1B more in spending on the short term, but more importantly, he's stirring up a sleepy program. At best, he's trying to start a process that gets us from here to there, not actually get us from here to there. This is just the next step, not the first step, and not the last step.

I think in terms of new gradient, and the impact of the marginal dollar. Consider the new dollars being spent heading off in a new direction. Had he not proposed this, NASA would be spending the same dollars continuing to tread water; get the 2003 budget spreadsheet, fiddle some numbers, bidness as usual. WItht his, they are going to need to scrap the whole spreadsheet, and think anew. He's shaking things up, stirring the pot, kicking some butt. Not yet another shuttle flight in low earth orbit; OK already, after more than a generation of that, let's start attacking new problems, thinking new thoughts. Let's set difficult goals, then stand back and watch what shakes out of the human race.

For example, no fossil fuels on the Moon. Aint' gonna be no Mobil station on Mars. The effort to not just go to the Moon, but to consider establishing bases there, is going to by necessity trigger massive waves of development in energy technologies.

But, only if the effort is made.

It's a start.

 

[Key Of David]

I don't recall sky scrapers mentioned in the Bible either.

Its ironic that you mentioned skyscrapers in this particular subject. I think these verses prove you wrong not just on your saying sky scrapers weren't mentioned, but also that God doesn't want us to put so much into making us a name in otherwordly places....

Gen. 11:4-5 - (4) And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a TOWER, WHOSE TOP MAY REACH UNTO HEAVEN; and let us make us a NAME, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. (5) And the Lord came down to see the city and the TOWER, which the children of men builded....

Going to Mars is no less futile than studying history is. Studying the properties and history of another planet can give us valuable insight into the history and functions of our own planet. We might even be able to answer that elusive question: how common is life?

There is only one reason that we even have a space program and these "missions" and that is either in the hopes of claiming us new land or making new $$$ which is working very well. I can tell you how common life is....ever walked down a poor section of NYC and see the homeless lined up down a building? That's life. I don't see it being paid attention to...much less studied and spent billions on. I think people need to grow up.

 

[Tangata]

I have not taken the time to read all of this, so if it's a repeat, whatever.

Right now I am only interested in the geology of Mars, and how similar it is to our own. I saw mountains in a number of pictures sent back by Spirit. I want to know if they're actual mountains as we know them, or just the edges impacts that had forced up a bit of land. I want to know if there are/were plates and if they worked in a similar fashion to our own.

Have you guys seen those high-res pictures coming back from Spirit? They're freaking amazing.

 

[Zlex]

I don't see it being paid attention to...much less studied and spent billions on.

Really? I see lots of organizations and money being poured into helping those who are down on their luck.

Unless you are saying we should just screw advancing society, aka some more Dark ages, and pour all that money that falls from the sky unabetted into the homeless. The whole point of the Soviet model was, it failed miserably. Anybody miss that point?

 

[datan]

relax those who feel that the money will be wasted.

it won't since the money will never appear.

Bush isn't serious about building a lunar base or sending a man to Mars.
An additional $1 billion over 5 years? Who does he think he is kidding? Building a lunar base and/or sending a man to Mars would require tens of billions a year additional.

The Apollo missions cost hundreds of billions. Bush's dad made a similar pledge to send a man to Mars for $400 billion, and what happened to that pledge? Like father like son.

A trip to moon/Mars will have to survive through at least five administrations and ten congresses. What's the chance of it ever materialising? Where's the money going to come from, especially after all those tax cuts and the war in Iraq?

In short, this is simply pretty smoke that will never materialise whether or not Bush is re-elected.

 

[Maddog]

I just noticed this:

Sorry Maddog I didn't take the time to read all the post before writing. Im a newbie not to just this site but to all message boards in general.

In regards to this convo:

THERE IS NOTHING ON MARS. but there is nothing on the moon either! when we went to the moon technology exploded and threw our country into the bigtime.. if we get to mars its just a cymbol to the world. if we spend the money to develope the technology to get there then the same capabilty will progress technology into nothing we have ever seen.

That was my point exactly on the previous page (Page 12), where I listed some of the side benefits of the technology used to get to the Moon. What could come out of this is unimaginable, as where some of those things I mentioned back in the 1960's.

Also it is not just your country that will explode into the big time, look what the Apollo Mission did in Australia as well, if anyone has seen the film The Dish, they know it went beyond one Country. It created employment and wealth in other Countries as well, look how Japanese Technology grew from this. Without the need for smaller chips, circuit boards and the like, we may not have a lot of what we have now. Half the gaming consoles grew out of the need for Flight Simulators for one, and not to mention communication devices and Satellite Technology got better.

So christianactor,

There is no need to be sorry, I wasn't having a shot at you at all, just re-pointing out that post, as I thought you may of been interested in reading the side benefits I listed, just thought you may of missed it (as I did this one of yours), that's all.

Also welcome to the world of message boards, and remember sometimes what you read, does not come out the way it is intended by the poster. As in that post I did to you, it was not intended as a burn, it was intended as a friendly one. When the voice and mood of something that is posted is taken away from what is being said, it sometimes can appear different to the intent it was said in.

Again Welcome