speaking in tongues

[GenemZ]

oops, sorry I was too late to warn you!!!!

and it wasn't a bad thought--you can also be united in love: Colossians 2:1-5
1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

Note:

"2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

Understanding? Wisdom? Knowledge? Or, is it? Pick what you want it to mean, and then demand that everyone accepts you in love, or they can not be spiritual? And, if they try to correct your error, tell them they are mean and unloving? Hmmmmmm?

"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer." 1 Timothy 1:3 niv

I guess Paul was telling Timothy to be unloving to all those otherwise nice people, living in what is false..... Like having women being pastors and having spiritual authority over men. The first time that happened, was when Eve took the fruit to Adam. Women were not designed by God to have spiritual authority over men.

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions." 1 Timothy 6:3-4 niv

Yet? You keep chugging along.....accepting your wife as a pastor, and having women bishops that you must submit to.

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve." 1 Timothy 2:11-13 niv

"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach..." 1 Timothy 3:2 niv

"An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient." Titus 1:6 niv

Means nothing to you..... Its God's Word, and it means nothing to you. Just like the creation account in Genesis is spun by you to not mean that God created man and woman as an original and unique creation. But instead, that man evolved from something else. Who cares what the Word says? GeneZ, is mean, and will blast you if you do not agree with him. That's all that matters. Right?

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions." 1 Timothy 6:3-4 niv

Enjoy while you can.

Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

My old man tells me that we know Christians by the fruits of their labor. I would honestly bow to this man's knowledge of the subject of he Bible as he has made his whole life a living sacrafice to God.

I see... Your old man told you?

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:6

(couldn't resist that one!)

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[(Omega)]

 

[SumTinWong]

It is a compromise when they follow another spirit..... The spirit they follow will be revealed in what Truth they have received. All those nice behavioral aspects you mentioned concerning men, would make Christian despising Ghandi at the head of the table you eat from.

Interesting note on Ghandi by the way. One of the main reasons he never became a Christian was he never saw a practicing model. I think his quote was I lie your Christianity, but not your Christians. No doubt he must have been observing behavior like this...

Jesus came to bring a sword, not peace.

Then why is He called the Prince of Peace? Why does Paul often call God the God of Peace? I gave you verses including the sermon on the mount that spoke of peace, and yet you continue to harp on this on verse. Pity.

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3 niv

Have you ever seen the movie the Princess Bride? There is a character in the movie who keeps using a word, inconceivable, when something goes wrong with their plans. At one point one of the guys says"You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means." You remind me of that guy. Why do you keep using verses that mean something, that nobody is disputing? The verses obviously are correct but how do they apply to tongues?

Would you have a harmonious peace with such as those mentioned? Having itching ears to hear the Word taught as they want to believe it to be? They deny Christ when they do that.

It would be silly but you have not proven that these people are the same kinds of people that do that. You shout verses "keep away, keep away", and yet you have no proof that these people are whom we should keep away from.

I will stick with the Word.

I am going to get a little personal here. You obviously have a bias against the people who speak in tongues and you are firmly planted in your belief system. You feel that this is based on the Word of God. Well it seems that your theology is based on what you want to read rather than what is actually there.

Rather than draw this out with you, because quite honestly I do not care to go in circles with on this issue, let me give you another Biblical warning that you would should pay very close attention to:

Matthew 12:31-32 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

My warning is this: Those people that Jesus was talking to were saying that He was doing this stuff by the power of the devil. I would tread lightly in the area of saying that something that comes from the Holy Spirit in fact comes from the devil.

 

[JVD]

Matthew 12:31-32 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

I think both sides on this issue should be careful using this verse against the other. While I am not a believer in tongues, they cannot be disproved with scripture. Neither can they be proved with scripture. It is entirely and completely a subjective experience that the practitioners call tongues.

To say an unbeliever is blaspheming the Holy Spirit is jumping to the conclusion that the tongues experience is actually the Holy Spirit. The babbling could, (and I believe it is), be self-delusion.

I think both sides should refrain from calling each other blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. This whole argument is built on subjectivity and I repeat...cannot be proven one way or another from scripture.

 

[SumTinWong]

I think both sides should refrain from calling each other blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. This whole argument is built on subjectivity and I repeat...cannot be proven one way or another from scripture.

I am not calling anyone a blasphemer I am cautioning him against it based on the evidence we have for or against tongues.

 

[JVD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: JVD




I think both sides should refrain from calling each other blasphemers of the Holy Spirit. This whole argument is built on subjectivity and I repeat...cannot be proven one way or another from scripture.



I am not calling anyone a blasphemer I am cautioning him against it based on the evidence we have for or against tongues.

If you are not calling anyone a blasphemer, I guess I don't understand your reason for using this scripture. You are cautioning him against what? Blaspheming?

If so I would again say that this verse should not be used by either side because in this subjective debate the blaspheming accusation can go both ways.

 

[SumTinWong]

Have you ever heard of the idea of erring on the side of caution? If, and this is an if, this gift is from the Holy Spirit attributing it to the devil could be considered blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Could it not? My caution was to consider that there is not enough evidence and to be aware that this could be blaspheming if in fact this is from the Holy Spirit. Do you understand now?

I personally side with Billy Graham. I was not blessed with the gift myself but I am not going to attribute it to the devil, or to misguided people, who have forgotten the truth of the Bible which is what genez was saying.

You have your opinion and you are entitled to it. I do not share that opinion.

 

[Iosias]

i recently spoke with a guy who said that he has spoken in tongues before and has had a few prophetic dreams. i have no reason not to believe him, so i couldn't help but be amazed. i've only been christian for about a year and ive never heard of anyone actually speaking in tongues. this is an awesome discovery for me though. what do you guys think? have any of you here ever spoken in tongues? i certainly never have, but i would love nothing more that to come to a point in my relationship with god where i would speak in tongues. this subject really amazes me. any insight or accounts of you or people you know speaking in tongues?

The Gift of Tongues ceased around AD70 when its purpose had finished.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From: http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Speaking-in-Tongues.html[/font]



[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit and specifically speaking in new tongues, I offer the following observations: [/font]

1. [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]While the Orthodox Church does not deny this gift in any way, it does acknowledge that this gift is rarely given, spontaneous, and only evident in cases of need. On the day of Pentecost, as we read in the Acts of the Apostles, the apostles proclaimed the Good News to all who would listen. Acts notes that there were many people from many lands in Jerusalem at the time, celebrating the Jewish feast of Pentecost. Many languages were spoken. Acts continues by stating that every one in the crowd heard and understood the apostles as if they were speaking in their own tongues. This gives rise to speculation: does speaking in tongues mean that someone is speaking in a language he or she does not know, or does it imply that he or she is speaking in his or her own language but that the Holy Spirit miraculously enables his or her listeners to understand, even if his or her listeners do not know the speaker's language? [/font]
   
2. [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It follows that on the day of Pentecost there was a clear need for this manifestation: everyone was from a different land and spoke a different language. However, everyone understood. This clearly implies that speaking in tongues is not meaningless babbling, but readily understood speech and language. [/font]
   
3. [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]While on the day of Pentecost there was a need, due to varying languages, in the case of a group of people who all speak and understand the same language, what would be the purpose of tongues? In Scripture we do not find other indications or references to the apostles speaking in tongues, other than on the day of Pentecost. Perhaps it was because no such need had made itself evident. [/font]
   
4. [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is only my personal opinion, but I think the Orthodox Church would say that "regularly scheduled" speaking in tongue sessions conducted by individuals who speak the same language somehow miss the point. For example, it seems inconceivable to say, "Welcome to our mid-week prayer service. From 7:00 until 7:30 we will pray and sing hymns, and then we will speak in tongues." [/font]
   
   [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If everyone speaks the same language, what is being revealed? If what is uttered is not intelligible to the hearers, what is being communicated? [/font]
   
   [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If it is a way of showing who in a congregation is filled with the Holy Spirit and who isn't, it constitutes heresy, for the Holy Spirit is everywhere present and fills all things, including those individuals who have been created in God's image and likeness yet who reject the very notion. Scripture is very clear that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are never to become sources of personal pride. [/font]
   

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]With regard to miracles, surely there can be no end to the age of miracles, for God is present everywhere and at all times in the midst of His people. This in itself is a miracle. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If, however, by miracles we are referring only to physical healings, flashing lights, unexplained phenomena, and the like, then we may very well be disappointed. Christ Himself condemned those who continually wished to see signs, or miracles. And Scripture is clear that even those who witnessed miracles with their own eyes often rejected that which they had experienced. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Read the account of the resurrection of Lazarus; everyone witnessed Lazarus walking out of his tomb, yet Scripture says that immediately this created a division among the people, with some greeting Christ the very next day with palm branches as He entered Jerusalem while other witnesses sought a means by which they might put Him to death. "If we don't stop Him, the whole world will chase after Him." [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Indeed, we believe in miracles -- the real miracle, however, is discoverning God's presence in our lives; discerning His voice, small and still as it may be, as the Prophet Elijah did -- and keeping still and silent so we can hear His voice and discern His will for our lives; accepting His call and invitation to live in this world while not being of this world; etc. Healings do occur, but as Christ Himself states in every case, healings are not only signs of God's power and love but also signs of tremendous faith on the part of the one healed -- "Your faith has made you whole." [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Finally, one of the greatest miracles that can occur today, in this age of personal issues, lack of self esteem, and the ongoing search to discover "who am I," is the recognition of ourselves and our very lives as miracles. As Saint John of Kronstadt, the late-19th century Orthodox saint, once wrote, "Lord, I am a miracle of Thy love. ..." [/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]With regard to what we might call phenomenal miracles -- weeping icons, faces of Jesus appearing on walls, and the like -- Saint John Chrysostom offers good advice: they may be a revelation from God, or they may be a deception from Satan. If we are living according to the teachings and example of Christ, however, we should not make much of them. [/font]

Forgive me...

 

[JVD]

And if it is not the Holy Spirit...and there is also good evidence to say it is not. Would not attributing to the Holy Spirit something that may be completely false and divisive to the church of God also be blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Do you see what I am saying about this accusation being used both ways?

Since this is a completely subjective experience with no real proof either way I think the blaspheming statement should be completely avoided.

As for Billy Graham...while I respect him and believe him to be mightily used of God to bring many people to himself, he is not perfect. Like all of us he is mistaken on some issues, and I believe him to be mistaken on this one. This is one aspect of the the church and theology that I have made a thorough study of and after considering both sides...and being open to both sides have finally come to the conclusion that almost all cases of speaking in tongues are self-delusionary.

I am not a cessationist and I do believe God can and does perform miraculous works today. However, an open minded evaluation of the tongues movement, I believe leads to my conclusion. Of course, my ability to convince others, including you, is very limited. I don't think it possible to easily convince someone that a very emotional and sincere experience that they have, and that is supported by many sincere people around them is self-delusion.

I do have a concern however about many people coming out of the tongues/charismatic/signs and wonders/wof movements that have been dissalusioned with the movement and not having been grounded well in the word may leave the faith altogether.

I have one friend that now considers himself and athiest after having been heavily involved. I know of others in similar situations. I know this happens in all parts of the church, but am beginning to wonder if it is more common in churches where experience is emphasized over the word of God.

 

[SumTinWong]

And if it is not the Holy Spirit...and there is also good evidence to say it is not. Would not attributing to the Holy Spirit something that may be completely false and divisive to the church of God also be blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Sure, I think I agreed to that.

Do you see what I am saying about this accusation being used both ways?

Yes I do, I absolutley do. That is why I used the clarification that I did after ou brought it up.

Since this is a completely subjective experience with no real proof either way I think the blaspheming statement should be completely avoided.

I understand that is you position, hopefully I can explain myself better. This is a what if question and although I am not a fan of what ifs, here it goes. What if it is a gift of the Holy Spirit and we are saying it is from the devil? What if it is from teh devil and we are saying it is from the Holy Spirit? Where I draw the line is here. I will not it is or that it isn't because there is no evidence in either direction to sway me. So that being the case, I will not make the mistake of mistakingly attributing it to either side.

I do know that Billy Graham is not perfect, no person but Jesus ever truly is/was. But I gotta tell you, I don't know many people that sway me more than him, and it is mostly due to him proving over time that he is a trusted man of God.

 

[JVD]

Looks like you and I agree on Billy Graham...except for this one issue. That's saying something actually on this board. Seems like a lot of folks can't stand him.

As far as tongues go. We can all argue till we are blue in the face with scripture on tongues and it will not prove a single thing.

It is obvious that tongues were spoken of in the scripture. It is also obvious that at least some of the tongues were known languages. In addition there is evidence from scripture that there may be "tongues of...angels" although those tongues are never described even though there are many instances in scripture where angels do speak. What we cannot prove is that the sounds now called tongues are the same thing described in scripture, that is completely subjective.

 

[SumTinWong]

I think many people don't like the Reverand Graham because he and people like Chuck Colson have "sold out" by trying to better relations between the Christian faiths. I would dare say that out of those people that feel that way many are not fans of the Catholic church.

You are right we could argue till tuesday about this. Let me say that I respect your opinion and am willing to stay here on the fence about this issue.

Thanks for the conversation, it was nice to talk to you, and thanks for being civil

 

[herev]

Hi, Genez, still on a rant, are we?

He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions." 1 Timothy 6:3-4 niv

Now this part sounds like somone I know--someone who speaks the truth without understanding it and with venom dripping from his every keystroke. Can't seem to place it right now--but it'll come to me!
As always, thanks for your kind remarks
And still, God loves you and so do I!
Have a pleasant day!

 

[GenemZ]

Then why is He called the Prince of Peace? Why does Paul often call God the God of Peace? I gave you verses including the sermon on the mount that spoke of peace, and yet you continue to harp on this on verse. Pity.

The peace he gives is personal and individual. You can have complete peace on the battlefield in God's will. He also said, that he did not come to bring peace, that father will be against son, etc. It seems you have only one application for the word "peace." Also, when he reigns the earth, there will be peace. But, even then, there will be antagonists.

It would be silly but you have not proven that these people are the same kinds of people that do that. You shout verses "keep away, keep away", and yet you have no proof that these people are whom we should keep away from.

You can not hear my words. You can not understand what I am explaining. I speak plain English, but the Truth to you is like hearing tongues. That is the problem.

I am going to get a little personal here. You obviously have a bias against the people who speak in tongues and you are firmly planted in your belief system. You feel that this is based on the Word of God. Well it seems that your theology is based on what you want to read rather than what is actually there.

Try this shoe on. I think it fits very well. If the shoe fits?

Rather than draw this out with you, because quite honestly I do not care to go in circles with on this issue, let me give you another Biblical warning that you would should pay very close attention to:

Matthew 12:31-32 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

My warning is this: Those people that Jesus was talking to were saying that He was doing this stuff by the power of the devil. I would tread lightly in the area of saying that something that comes from the Holy Spirit in fact comes from the devil.

He also said that there will be ones claiming to be doing things by the power of the Spirit, but are of the Devil. That's why we need to discern and not have our hands tied by your type of thinking. Here is what he said...

Matthew 7:21-23 niv

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "

Sound familiar? "In the name of Jesus, come out of him!"

Jesus warned that many who do such things are not even saved, and were doing evil. Should anyone discerning such activity shut up when being accused of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

This blasphemy was done by the Pharisees who called the miracles of Jesus of the Devil. The problem was, they thought they were the ones of God. And, add to that, they did not have the power to do what Jesus was doing.

They were not only attributing to the Holy Spirit's work as being demonic! They were saying much worse! They were saying that the devil was superior to God! For, they said they were of God, and they had not enough power to do such things. Yet, Jesus who was doing greater things than they could, was being accused of being of the Devil. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying that the Devil is superior to God! Those who see the Devil as superior, reject Jesus Christ. They may not know what it is that their actions reveal. But, that is what it is. Ultimately, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is the rejection of Christ!

Grace and peace........ GeneZ

 

[ahab]

Hi Genez,

I am not saying we see fully now.

I understand that but I see the passage saying that. From the chapters in Corinthians I do not see prophecy and tongues as anything temporary and you do so I think we shall just have to disagree there.

"He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Yes but that could apply to either of our understandings.

"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away." 1 Corinthians 13:8

We agree on that, the question was when do tongues cease, that’s where we disagree.

That is why Peter wrote the following!

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you." 2 Peter 2:1a niv

Well Paul also wrote on a number of occasions warning about those who taught a different gospel than the one he preaches, and he tells us not to forbid speaking in tongues.

If the gift of prophet was to continue through the Church age, Peter would have said that there would be false prophets amongst the future Church.

I think he did mean this. However the great commision is make disciples who obey everything Jesus taught. As we read in Mark's gospel Jesus says we will speak in tongues. If propechy and tongues have ceased I assume you must believe making disciples has ceased as well, and healing.

Paul tells us clearly that the gift of prophecy was much more important than the gift of tongues. If we can know that the gift of prophecy ended, why should tongues remain? They were both to come to an end.

Thats a valid point if one believes either has ended, I believe neither. I don’t see prophecy and tongues as having ended, we have to disagree there.

What more can I say? Either you get it.... or you can't. So far, you refuse!

No I don’t get it as I don’t agree with you that tongues and prophecy have ceased, furthermore I prayed for the gift of tongues for some time and knew I hadn’t got it because I knew I was just imitating those I had heard, then when I was released I was released into praise and worship to God. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. In tongues I dont speak to men but to my Heavenly Father.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you." 2 Peter 2:1a niv

I dont believe that your understanding that prophecy and tongues is false teaching because you are basing it on the revelation you have of scripture, but so I am testing my revelation against the Word, the Holy Spirit reminds us of all Jesus said.

"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the doctrine you have learned. Keep away from them." Romans 16:17

As I have pointed out above we have different revelations of the scriptures concerning tongues, I think Paul actually makes the point that he isnt so bothered about the gift or tongues anyway so I dont see it as an issue to cause divisions among us.

I will stick with the Word.

Me too.

Witches speak in tongues. Tabetian monks speak in tongues. Are they filled with the Holy Spirit, too?

Well even the demons believed in Jesus and trembled, but do they praise Jesus?

 

[Iosias]

As we read in Mark's gospel Jesus says we will speak in tongues. If propechy and tongues have ceased I assume you must believe making disciples has ceased as well, and healing.

As we read in Mark's gospel the commission regarding new tongues etc was fulfilled see: Mark 16:20 "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

 

[ahab]

Hi AV1611,

As we read in Mark's gospel the commission regarding new tongues etc was fulfilled see: Mark 16:20 "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. Mark 16:15-20
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:19

Are we baptising, making disciples and preaching still? Is there healing still? When Paul writes to the Corinthian church has the Holy Spirit been given to all believers? Paul wasn't one of the eleven was he?

 

[JVD]

Ahab...

I also do not believe that tongues have ceased. But I do believe that most of the babbling that is called tongues today is nothing but babbling.

How do you KNOW that the tongues you experience are the tongues of the bible??