Something that may help against Jehovah's Witnesses

[1Tonne]

Jesus has all authority ..... he did not .... does not give it to anyone.

Matt 19:28 "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
This verse cannot be ignored.
Also, Rev 20:4 cannot be ignored where is says that there are a number of judges. Jesus is one, not a number of judges. So this can't be Jesus.
If a King has a kingdom and he then appoints individuals to look after a certain area and to have authority in that area, the King is not giving up his authority. He still has the overall reign. So, yes, Jesus has all authority, but he has allowed the disciples to judge Israel.

Authority was given to the apostles to preach the gospel .... not judgement, just as we also have the responsibility of preaching the gospel as well.

That is not what Matt 19:28 says. You are putting your own meaning to a verse that does not need to have it. You are speaking of a different verse which is Matt 10:1-15

Jesus judges all ... and it has taken place before He returns.

The judgement happens after the real 1000-year period, after Satan's short reign and then Christ will judge all. If you read the complete chapter of Rev 20, it is in chronological order.

Jesus said that everyone who has died will be raised from the dead and be judged John 5:26-29

28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

This is correct. Everyone, apart from the martyrs (who are in the first resurrection) will be raised at the very end of time to go to the GWT judgement.

So, when reading these verses, I am not putting any extra meaning to them. They can be read and understood simply as they are. And they make sense.

 

[eleos1954]

The first resurrection is only for the martyrs who kept to the testimony of Christ. They are the beheaded. As stated in verse 4 of Revelation 20. We cannot ignore this. This in no way says every believer.

Then in verse 5 it specifically states that every other person who was not beheaded for their faith, so believer and non-believer, will not be raised at this point. They are raised after the 1000 years and that is when they will all face the Great White Throne Judgement.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Correct. Jesus does judge everyone at the Great White Throne Judgement. But as Jesus said, He gave the disciples the authority to judge the nation of Israel.
Matt 19:28 "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
This cannot be ignored either.

Paul lines it out here ...

1st Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[1Tonne]

Paul lines it out here ...

1st Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

In verse 13 we need to understand who the people are who have fallen asleep in Him. As I have previously stated, to find out simply look at Rev 20:4 and do not put any mystical meaning on it. Read it for what it is.

Once you understand that the martyrs return and reign with Christ, verse 15 becomes very easy to understand. Christ returns with the martyrs and sometime after the 1000-year reign, Satan is set free to reign. During this time, Christ ascends once more. Then when he comes back, He conquers all. Those who are alive and remain will then meet the Lord in the air. And the believers will believers will be with the Lord forever after.

No guessing games needed.

 

[biblelesson]

If you can poke a hole in the Jehovah’s Witness teaching, they may start to doubt if the church is correct. So, it is good to have this little piece of knowledge in your quiver.
Here is a way of showing a Jehovah’s Witness that they are not the ones who return with Christ and reign for 1000 years.

I had a JW come to my door the other day and we spoke for about 15 minutes.
He went on to tell me that the JW’s will reign with Christ for 1000 years. I then asked him to read the verse about who reigns for 1000 years.
Revelation 20:4-5 says “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
At the start of this verse it says that John saw thrones and the ones that sat on the thrones and they were given the authority to judge. This implies that there are a number of judges. Then it says that John saw the martyrs for Christ. So, the ones judging, and the martyrs are not one in the same people. They are different beings. I then asked the JW, “If Christ judges everyone, then who are the ones that judge the martyrs? It specifically says that there are a number of thrones and judges.” The JW did not have the answer.

I then said to the JW that I believe the people who reign with Christ are the 144,000. And he agreed. So, I took him to the verses where the 144,000 are mentioned.
In Rev 7:4-8 John describes the 144,000 as being from the 12 tribes of Israel. So, they are Jewish people. The JW, then told me that this was symbolic. I said that I did not believe so. And then I showed him how in Matt 19:28 Jesus said that he would hand over the judgment of the nation of Israel, to the disciples. “And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
So, in Rev 20:4, the reason there are several thrones, and several Judges is because, it is the disciples who are judging Jewish people.

So, keep this in your quiver for the next time they arrive on your door. It may make them double think about their church.

NOTE: I do understand that many believers have a different view of end times, but I choose to read the bible literary. If it makes sense, then I do not add a symbolic mystical meaning to it.

I agree with some of your tactics with speaking with Jehovah’s Witness. I want to share something with you as I also am cautious to not add symbolic mystical meanings to the bible.

This is for you to think about. People keep interpreting the 144,000 as a number being counted and attributing to literal Israel and literal tribes. If that’s the case though, have you ever considered that out of all the people at that time, how is it that each tribe is exactly 12,000? That’s because this number is not counting people, it is an identification of a city that measures 144,000.

The Bible offers a clear explanation. New Jerusalem that John saw in Revelation 21 has the exact measurements that’s identified in Revelation 7. New Jerusalem has a great wall great and high, it has twelve gates where the names of the twelve tribes of Israel is written on, Revelation 21:12. Also wall has twelve foundations with the twelve apostles’s names written on it, Revelation 21:14. So each apostle will reign over an appointed city for one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now consider the measurements:
The wall of the city had twelve foundations. Each city measuring 12,000 furlongs, Revelation 21:16. So that would be 12 cities because the wall had 12 foundations. There are twelve gates leading to a city - each gate identified a tribe of Israel.

The wall measured 144,000 cubics, Revelation 21:17. Within the wall are the 12 foundations, Revelation 21:14.

This New Jerusalem is where all those who are saved will dwell at the end, Revelation 21:24. They are “The” Hundred fourth and four thousand; those sealed for the city, New Jerusalem. John is seeing those saints who are being sealed to identify those that will inherit New Jerusalem, so the angels must not hurt them.

To go further, the Bible always gives us the answer: in Revelation 7:5 the Bible says the 144,000 are sealed. This is the same seal in Revelation 3:12, where Jesus says he that overcomes, He will write upon him the name of the city…New Jerusalem. This is the same seal in Revelation 9:4, where again the angles must not hurt them - they are those in Revelation 7 that are sealed.

All those saved in Christ who will be resurrected at His second coming and those who John saw being sealed during the tribulation are with Jesus standing on Mount Zion. They are “sealed in their foreheads” for the “City” that measures 144,000 furlongs, Revelation 14:1. They all are “The 144,000.” (Not counting, but identification). They were not defiled by women because the Spirit of Christ is in the believer who are not defiled by the harlot that sit on many waters who committed fornication. It’s not talking about men who were virgins. It’s talking about what Apostle Paul said, “to be presented as chaste virgins,” 2 Corinthians 11:2.

 

[eleos1954]

In verse 13 we need to understand who the people are who have fallen asleep in Him. As I have previously stated, to find out simply look at Rev 20:4 and do not put any mystical meaning on it. Read it for what it is.

Once you understand that the martyrs return and reign with Christ, verse 15 becomes very easy to understand. Christ returns with the martyrs and sometime after the 1000-year reign, Satan is set free to reign. During this time, Christ ascends once more. Then when he comes back, He conquers all. Those who are alive and remain will then meet the Lord in the air. And the believers will believers will be with the Lord forever after.

No guessing games needed.

Christ reigns from heaven .... while He was on earth as a man ... everything that was needed to be done .... was done ..... it is finished. Satan
has no one to "rule"
was defeated at the cross .... the Lord delays His coming because there are more yet to be saved .... satan is bound (in prison) for the 1,000 years .... because he has no one to rule ..... all mankind left on earth are destroyed/slain .... the saved are taken to heaven.

“I am going there (heaven) to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back (His second coming) and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am” (John 14:2, 3). Jesus is now in heaven (Acts 2:32, 33; Hebrews 9:25), and He promised that at His second coming He would take His people to be with Him, where He is. The 1,000 years is spent in heaven .... not on earth.

There isn’t the slightest evidence in the New Testament that the righteous and the wicked will live together after Christ’s second coming.

His parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said that at His second coming the righteous and the wicked will be separated from each other “as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” (Matthew 25:32; see also Matthew 13:40-43).

No where does the bible speak of Jesus living on earth and then "reascending" to heaven. The harvest of the wheat (the saved) takes place
when Jesus returns ..... He takes the saved to heaven for the 1,000 years.

No "guessing" going on here.

 

[1Tonne]

There isn’t the slightest evidence in the New Testament that the righteous and the wicked will live together after Christ’s second coming.

Rev 20 has plenty of evidence. Look at Rev 20:7-10. "When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Notice how that after the second coming, Christ reigns for 1000 years. And then the wicked people surround the beloved city. These are not good people.

His parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said that at His second coming the righteous and the wicked will be separated from each other “as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” (Matthew 25:32; see also Matthew 13:40-43).

You will notice that Matt 25:31-46 and in Matthew 13:40-43 the bible does not use the words "Second Coming". So how do you not know that there is not a 3rd coming. The reason why in Rev 20 it speaks of only 1000 literal years is because there is an end to these 1000 years. There is an end for His reign, and he allows Satan to reign for a short time. Then he comes back with fire and defeats His enemy. This is when He separates the sheep and the goats. So yes, the wicked are separated and cast into the lake of fire after the GWT judgement.

No where does the bible speak of Jesus living on earth and then "reascending" to heaven. The harvest of the wheat (the saved) takes place
when Jesus returns ..... He takes the saved to heaven for the 1,000 years.

If the reign is for a specific time of 1000 years, then there is an end to his reign. So why does His reign end? Where does He go?
Now maybe he does not leave. I can accept that. But at some point, he does not reign, and Satan surrounds Him while He is in Jerusalem. But then at the end, He destroys His enemies by fire from heaven and He meets with everyone in the clouds to then go to the GWT judgement.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The approach in the OP doesn't even seem to work among Christians.

JW's have a lot of training. So it requires a lot of training to effectively argue with them.

 

[eleos1954]

Rev 20 has plenty of evidence. Look at Rev 20:7-10. "When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Notice how that after the second coming, Christ reigns for 1000 years. And then the wicked people surround the beloved city. These are not good people.


You will notice that Matt 25:31-46 and in Matthew 13:40-43 the bible does not use the words "Second Coming". So how do you not know that there is not a 3rd coming. The reason why in Rev 20 it speaks of only 1000 literal years is because there is an end to these 1000 years. There is an end for His reign, and he allows Satan to reign for a short time. Then he comes back with fire and defeats His enemy. This is when He separates the sheep and the goats. So yes, the wicked are separated and cast into the lake of fire after the GWT judgement.


If the reign is for a specific time of 1000 years, then there is an end to his reign. So why does His reign end? Where does He go?
Now maybe he does not leave. I can accept that. But at some point, he does not reign, and Satan surrounds Him while He is in Jerusalem. But then at the end, He destroys His enemies by fire from heaven and He meets with everyone in the clouds to then go to the GWT judgement.

Now maybe he does not leave.

Now who is guessing?

Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).

Jesus already reigns in heaven and on earth. Satan has limited power .... no power in heaven .... and limited power on earth ..... all on earth are in the position of choice ..... follow the Lamb .... or not .... when He returns .... judgement has taken place .... He has separated the sheep from the goats.

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven this is between the first and second resurrections.

During this time (1,000 years in heaven) the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels.

1 Corinthians 6:3
New King James Version
Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

At then end of the 1,000 years, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The wicked dead will then be resurrected, and Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image (not just the martyrs) and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years (from the 1st resurrection). The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended (from the 2nd resurrection).

Impossible for anyone to survive this .... when Jesus returns

2 Peter 3:10 — King James Version (KJV 1900)​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

“With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8).
“Let the wicked perish at the presence of God” (Psalm 68:2).
“The rest of the dead (2nd resurrection) did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5)

 

[1Tonne]

The approach in the OP doesn't even seem to work among Christians.

I do agree there. Though some believers will actually sit down with a fresh mindset and look at this viewpoint.
But really, when it comes to end times, I do not mind which viewpoint someone has. As long as their core beliefs in the Gospel are correct.
But, with the particular JW that I had the other day, they did have to take a step back and take a second look to see if their teaching were correct. In the end, discussing end times will not bring a person out of the JW organisation. But it may put a kink in their belief. If we can make many kinks, then they may just leave their church.

 

[BurningBush84]

I would ask them why they need the New World Translation if the KJV and NKJV agrees with their doctrine. Because it doesn't. Almost every verse that proves Jesus is true God the New World Translation changes the wording.

God said he would not tempt us beyond what we can bear. So why would he tempt us with a bunch of misleading versions/translations of the Bible and only provide ONE accurate version to mankind (New Word Translation) ? Which didn't get fully published until 1961.

So God tempted mankind until 1961 with a bunch of misleading disinformation bible translations?? But then He finally provided mankind with the pure truth in 1961, the New World Translation.

Smh

 

[1Tonne]

I can see that your mind Eleos1954 is decided. I know that when it comes to eschatology that once someone has been taught a certain belief, that it is very difficult to change that. And really, to me, I do not mind.
I have made the point I need to and if I were to carry on, I would keep on repeating them.
I have enjoyed the discussion. Thanks Eleos1954

 

[biblelesson]

During this time (1,000 years in heaven) the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels

Studying about the last days will become more clear reading all of the prophets. There are several prophets who prophesied about the last days. Remember the scripture that says “here a little there a little. Line upon line, precept upon precept?” That means a matter is not just in one book of the Bible but spoken about in many other books. When you take the whole by reading each prophets account, then you will understand and put it all together. Micah is a book that talks about the last days, and he spoke about the 1000 millennium and gives a clear picture of what is going to be taking place, Micah 4:1-4.

 

[eleos1954]

Rev 20 has plenty of evidence. Look at Rev 20:7-10. "When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Notice how that after the second coming, Christ reigns for 1000 years. And then the wicked people surround the beloved city. These are not good people.


You will notice that Matt 25:31-46 and in Matthew 13:40-43 the bible does not use the words "Second Coming". So how do you not know that there is not a 3rd coming. The reason why in Rev 20 it speaks of only 1000 literal years is because there is an end to these 1000 years. There is an end for His reign, and he allows Satan to reign for a short time. Then he comes back with fire and defeats His enemy. This is when He separates the sheep and the goats. So yes, the wicked are separated and cast into the lake of fire after the GWT judgement.


If the reign is for a specific time of 1000 years, then there is an end to his reign. So why does His reign end? Where does He go?
Now maybe he does not leave. I can accept that. But at some point, he does not reign, and Satan surrounds Him while He is in Jerusalem. But then at the end, He destroys His enemies by fire from heaven and He meets with everyone in the clouds to then go to the GWT judgement.

His reign doesn't end ..... the 1,000 years is the period of time we reign with Him.

It’s mentioned in Revelation 20, explaining that these believers will “reign with Christ” (vs. 4) for that time period.

You are dismissing the 1st resurrection.

Nowhere does His Word state the saved will live with the unsaved after His return.

You are dismissing what actually happens at His return.

Jeremiah 4:23-28

23I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and void;
I looked to the heavens,
and they had no light.
24I looked at he mountains,
and behold, they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.

25I looked, and no man was left;
all the birds of the air had fled.
26I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert.
All its cities were torn down
before the LORD,
before His fierce anger.

27For this is what the LORD says:
“The whole land will be desolate,
but I will not finish its destruction.
28Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above will grow dark.
I have spoken, I have planned,
and I will not relent or turn back.”

You are dismissing the New Jerusalem that descends from heaven to earth .... the final battle is the wicked dead that are resurrected (along with satan and the 1/3 angels ..... they attack the New Jerusalem (to no avail) this is at the 2nd resurrection.

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. (satan is "bound")

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years” Revelation 20:1-6,

2 groups - sheep & goats, saved and lost, wheat and tares. righteous and unrighteous, holy and unholy, just and unjust ...

Revelation 22

10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”

12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28,29).

Judgement has already taken place at His return, the saved are taken to heaven for the 1,000 years ... nothing left living on planet earth .... it's a total wasteland (abyss) .... only satan and the 1/3 fallen angels are on desolate earth (nobody to tempt/nothing left on earth - Jeremiah 4:23-28 above) .... but this is not the full end .... the 2nd resurrection of the wicked dead happens after the 1,000 years.

The book of Revelation must harmonize with the rest of scripture.

 

[1Tonne]

You are dismissing the 1st resurrection.

No I haven't. That is the main thing I have been talking about. The martyrs come and reign for 1000 year with Christ. This is the first resurrection. I am confused how you have missed this considering how it has been the overall point to this end times theory.

You are dismissing what actually happens at His return.

I believe he has 2 returns. First with the martyrs and then after the 1000 years, He then leaves because in Rev 20:7-10, Satan seems to be ruling. Jesus then returns with fire and wipes out the people surrounding Jerusalem. The verses you mentioned, Jeremiah 4:23-28, are after He comes back with fire.

You are dismissing the New Jerusalem that descends from heaven to earth ....

Once again, not dismissed. The New Jerusalem is after Jesus comes with fire (Rev 20:9b). After the Judgement. From there He will reign forevermore. Notice in chapter 21, after the Judgement, the very first word is "then". The word "then" means that "after this". So, after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire and the Judgement of the people, there is then a new heaven and new earth, and the New Jerusalem comes down. So back in Rev 20:7-10 it is not speaking of the New Jerusalem, but the current one that is there right now. Revelation chapters 20 and 21 are chronological. They are an overview of the last days.

the final battle is the wicked dead that are resurrected (along with satan and the 1/3 angels ..... they attack the New Jerusalem (to no avail) this is at the 2nd resurrection.

Can you show me where in the Bible, that the wicked dead are raised back to life to live and attack the New Jerusalem? From what I know of it says that we are to die once and then the Judgement (Heb 9:27).
Also, if you are meaning Rev 20:7-10, for one, there is no mention of the wicked being raised in these verses. But it does say Satin is release and he deceives many of those people who are on the earth.
Also, the New Jerusalem is not here at this time either. Notice in chapter 21, the very first word is "then". So, after Satan attacks Jerusalem, there is a new heaven and new earth, and the New Jerusalem comes down. So back in Rev 20:7-10 it is not speaking of the New Jerusalem, but the current one that is there right now.

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28,29).

This is a good verse because it points out that everyone, believers and non-believers, are raised from the grave all at the same time. This is the same with the sheep and the goats. They are all gathered at the same time and then go to the judgment. The only exception to this is the first resurrection of those that we beheaded for the testimony of their faith. That is the martyrs. Great verse.

Judgement has already taken place at His return.

I believe Satin has already been found guilty. That is why he was thrown out of heaven.
But where does it say that judgement for the people has taken place? If I read Rev 20 chronologically, it does not say that judgement has already taken place at His return. It says, Satin is bound. The martyrs are raised and reign for 1000 years. Then Satan is released and his armies of wicked people (who have not died yet) surround Jerusalem. Christ then returns and conquers Satin. Satin is then thrown into the lake of fire. Then it is the Judgement of everybody (excluding the martyrs as they were judged in Rev 20:4).
So please show me where it says that Judgement of the people takes place before His return to defeat Satin.

 

[eleos1954]

No I haven't. That is the main thing I have been talking about. The martyrs come and reign for 1000 year with Christ. This is the first resurrection. I am confused how you have missed this considering how it has been the overall point to this end times theory.


I believe he has 2 returns. First with the martyrs and then after the 1000 years, He then leaves because in Rev 20:7-10, Satan seems to be ruling. Jesus then returns with fire and wipes out the people surrounding Jerusalem. The verses you mentioned, Jeremiah 4:23-28, are after He comes back with fire.


Once again, not dismissed. The New Jerusalem is after Jesus comes with fire (Rev 20:9b). After the Judgement. From there He will reign forevermore. Notice in chapter 21, after the Judgement, the very first word is "then". The word "then" means that "after this". So, after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire and the Judgement of the people, there is then a new heaven and new earth, and the New Jerusalem comes down. So back in Rev 20:7-10 it is not speaking of the New Jerusalem, but the current one that is there right now. Revelation chapters 20 and 21 are chronological. They are an overview of the last days.


Can you show me where in the Bible, that the wicked dead are raised back to life to live and attack the New Jerusalem? From what I know of it says that we are to die once and then the Judgement (Heb 9:27).
Also, if you are meaning Rev 20:7-10, for one, there is no mention of the wicked being raised in these verses. But it does say Satin is release and he deceives many of those people who are on the earth.
Also, the New Jerusalem is not here at this time either. Notice in chapter 21, the very first word is "then". So, after Satan attacks Jerusalem, there is a new heaven and new earth, and the New Jerusalem comes down. So back in Rev 20:7-10 it is not speaking of the New Jerusalem, but the current one that is there right now.


This is a good verse because it points out that everyone, believers and non-believers, are raised from the grave all at the same time. This is the same with the sheep and the goats. They are all gathered at the same time and then go to the judgment. The only exception to this is the first resurrection of those that we beheaded for the testimony of their faith. That is the martyrs. Great verse.


I believe Satin has already been found guilty. That is why he was thrown out of heaven.
But where does it say that judgement for the people has taken place? If I read Rev 20 chronologically, it does not say that judgement has already taken place at His return. It says, Satin is bound. The martyrs are raised and reign for 1000 years. Then Satan is released and his armies of wicked people (who have not died yet) surround Jerusalem. Christ then returns and conquers Satin. Satin is then thrown into the lake of fire. Then it is the Judgement of everybody (excluding the martyrs as they were judged in Rev 20:4).
So please show me where it says that Judgement of the people takes place before His return to defeat Satin.

The book of Revelational is not chronological

It's written in chiastic literary structure ... in fact a lot of the bible is written that way.

 

[1Tonne]

The book of Revelational is not chronological

It's written in chiastic literary structure ... in fact a lot of the bible is written that way.

I agree. Not all of Revelation is Chronological. It can overlap. But if it makes sense and can be understood in order, why take it out of order? We should not do this.

Can you show me where in the Bible, that the wicked dead are raised back to life to live and attack the New Jerusalem?

Can you please show me where it says that Judgement of the people takes place before His return to defeat Satin?

 

[eleos1954]

I agree. Not all of Revelation is Chronological. It can overlap. But if it makes sense and can be understood in order, why take it out of order? We should not do this.

Can you show me where in the Bible, that the wicked dead are raised back to life to live and attack the New Jerusalem?

Can you please show me where it says that Judgement of the people takes place before His return to defeat Satin?

Until this is understood (chiastic literary structure) one will bumble around.

I have shown you these things scripturally you refuse to see it ... or consider it ... and partly because you are looking at things chronologically as you choose .... in some places not in others ... and also not harmonizing all of scripture.

I'd recommend you study and understand Chiastic literary structure ... if you don't .... no sense in us continuing our discussion .... and I wish you well.

 

[1Tonne]

I do keep it very chronological. Especially when it is worded in such a way. And so should you.
For instance. Rev 21, the first word is "Then". The word "then" means that there was something that preceded it. But you are saying the New Jerusalem is earlier than chapter 21 when it specifically says the word "Then". This is chronological wording. If the word "then" is written, we must understand that it means "at that time" or "at that moment", or "subsequently". It is not before.
So yes, I will bumble if another theory does not use chronology where it is needed.