something Just didn't seem Right

[JT912]

Okay, so I met this guy the other day dressed nice who approached me and asked if I was Christian. Delighted I was like yeah Praise God brother, so we began talking. Then he began to explain to me that the real sabbath is on sat and gave me a history of Constantine and how he changed Saturday worship to Sunday worship. I actually thought it was interesting and never heard it before but then as we were talking he began mentioning how the real church worships on the sabbath and if you don't then your not worshipping God. I began to explain to him that we are no longer under the law of Moses and that it isn't as big of a deal as he was making it out to be. I mean we weren't arguing in fact it was a cool conversation but something just didn't seem right. I tried to implore him about what he believed, virgin birth, salvation through Christ and it all added up but something was just off. Does anybody have an idea as to what perhaps he was saying. I have suspicion to believe that he may have been a 7th day Adventist but I have little knowledge of other cults. Great young man he seemed legit but was he? Idk maybe someone else can help me out.

 

[Faulty]

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Col 2:16

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.​

Romans 14:4-6

 

[enoch son]

Black suit and tie could be a mormon.

 

[talitha]

Mormons are not seventh-dayers. Sounds like either 7th-day adventist or Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Simon_Templar]

The bit about Constantine is a lot of half truths and distortions. (ie lies)

The Church worshipped on sunday from the very beginning and this is easily provable historically. It is mentioned in the bible for one thing, but if there is any confusion about that, the early Christian writers Ignatius and Justin Martyr who lived during the time of the Apostles, or immediately there after, both record that the Christians met for worship on sunday.

Constantine did not establish sunday worship. What he actually did was make a law that mandated that all government/city business be closed on sunday so that slaves and servants could go to Church. Before that time many lower class citizens or slaves could not attend worship because they were forced to work.

It is actually a mistaken idea that Jews worshipped on saturday to begin with. The commandment was not to work on the sabbath... not to go to worship on the sabbath. In ancient Judaism most Jewish families stayed home on the sabbath because there were restrictions on how far you could travel.

Early Christians were not required to keep the sabbath, but the early writers noted that some Christians used the sabbath as a day to read and study scripture. Gathering for celebratory worship, however, was always done on sunday.

In fact the early christians thought of sunday as the 8th day. 8 symbolized new beginnings and they believed that the resurrection marked sunday as the beginning of a new covenant and indeed a new creation.

The guy you were talking to could have been 7th day adventist. There are also 7th day baptist groups, as well as some others. 7th day adventist and some of the 7th day baptist groups are probably more likely to view all sunday worshippers as false believers.

I've heard some of the 7th day baptist teachers say that worshipping on sunday is the mark of the beast etc.

 

[Yitzchak]

Okay, so I met this guy the other day dressed nice who approached me and asked if I was Christian. Delighted I was like yeah Praise God brother, so we began talking. Then he began to explain to me that the real sabbath is on sat and gave me a history of Constantine and how he changed Saturday worship to Sunday worship. I actually thought it was interesting and never heard it before but then as we were talking he began mentioning how the real church worships on the sabbath and if you don't then your not worshipping God. I began to explain to him that we are no longer under the law of Moses and that it isn't as big of a deal as he was making it out to be. I mean we weren't arguing in fact it was a cool conversation but something just didn't seem right. I tried to implore him about what he believed, virgin birth, salvation through Christ and it all added up but something was just off. Does anybody have an idea as to what perhaps he was saying. I have suspicion to believe that he may have been a 7th day Adventist but I have little knowledge of other cults. Great young man he seemed legit but was he? Idk maybe someone else can help me out.

In hebrew , the word for Saturday is Shabbat which means sabbath. There is no such thing as a sunday sabbath scripturally speaking. The Sabbath, is Saturday.

So the first issue is , a person either follows the sabbath on Saturday or does not follow the sabbath at all. There is no such thing as a Sunday Sabbath.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

There is no scriptural support for a Sunday Sabbath.


I can only speculate what this person you spoke with meant. But based upon my reading on the subject , he probably is refering to an issue of authority. Meaning that Sunday sabbath is traditions and authority of men . But Saturday sabbath is the commandment of scripture.


A christian can worship on any day. But there is a history behind the Sunday worship tradition. The reason just about all churches worship on Sunday now is because of their common roots historically. A google seacrh about the history of the sabbath and sunday worship will provide you a lot of backround.

 

[Yitzchak]

Also , there is a seveth day adventist section on the forums. The sabbath and Saturday worship is one of their main teachings. So if you also posted this questions on there, you would get a lot of info.

 

[talitha]

I am not a seventh-day-ist - but RtJ, I am not following your logic..... help?

 

[JT912]

Hey thanks guys I appreciate all your replies.

 

[hislegacy]

two threads on the same thing?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The bit about Constantine is a lot of half truths and distortions. (ie lies)

The Church worshipped on sunday from the very beginning and this is easily provable historically. It is mentioned in the bible for one thing, but if there is any confusion about that, the early Christian writers Ignatius and Justin Martyr who lived during the time of the Apostles, or immediately there after, both record that the Christians met for worship on sunday.

While the church "also" gathered together on the first day of the week (Sunday), they attended Synagogue on the 7th. (Saturday/Sabbath). There is worship of God during a synagogue service. It may look and sound different from what many call worship of God, but it is worship.

Constantine did not establish sunday worship. What he actually did was make a law that mandated that all government/city business be closed on sunday so that slaves and servants could go to Church. Before that time many lower class citizens or slaves could not attend worship because they were forced to work.

Read quotes from Catholic material here.

It is actually a mistaken idea that Jews worshipped on saturday to begin with. The commandment was not to work on the sabbath... not to go to worship on the sabbath. In ancient Judaism most Jewish families stayed home on the sabbath because there were restrictions on how far you could travel.

Acts 15:21 says, "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day".

Early Christians were not required to keep the sabbath, but the early writers noted that some Christians used the sabbath as a day to read and study scripture. Gathering for celebratory worship, however, was always done on sunday.

In context with the Acts notation above, Peter's suggestion was to write out for the new believers 4 things they were to abstain from, with the conclusion they would learn about Moses when they heard him in the synagogue every Sabbath day.

In fact the early christians thought of sunday as the 8th day. 8 symbolized new beginnings and they believed that the resurrection marked sunday as the beginning of a new covenant and indeed a new creation.

How early? I don't see this to be the consensus among the believers in the Bible.

The guy you were talking to could have been 7th day adventist. There are also 7th day baptist groups, as well as some others. 7th day adventist and some of the 7th day baptist groups are probably more likely to view all sunday worshippers as false believers.

I've heard some of the 7th day baptist teachers say that worshipping on sunday is the mark of the beast etc.

My friend who is Church of God in Christ Seventh Day thinks anyone who goes to church on Sundays is worshiping the devil and is lost.

 

[Simon_Templar]

While the church "also" gathered together on the first day of the week (Sunday), they attended Synagogue on the 7th. (Saturday/Sabbath). There is worship of God during a synagogue service. It may look and sound different from what many call worship of God, but it is worship.

It depends on how you define worship. Most people today would probably consider synagogue services to be worship, I would probably agree that today they are.

However, synagogues did not come into existence until the Babylonian captivity and were not an original fixture of Judaism as it was delivered from God. They came into existence because the Jews were deprived of the temple and the synagogue became a way to carry on with what aspects of the religion that could be exercised without the temple.

Strictly speaking under Jewish law no 'worship' was to be done outside the temple. This is holding the view that worship is basically synonymous with sacrifice. Thus, technically when the temple was in existence synagogues were not places of worship, but rather places of teaching and prayer (which I believe I said many Christians continued to do on the sabbath, in the form of bible study and reflection. If I didn't say it I intended to, along with the point that the Christians did not consider this to be a legalistic keeping of the sabbath, or something that people were required to do.)

Read quotes from Catholic material here.

I'm assuming that you are confused about this link. It is not a link to Catholic material but in fact a link to 7th day adventist argument. The quotes listed on the site are not original source material quotes but rather quotes from text books and the like. The point of the site is to try and prove that the 7th day view point didn't originate in the 1800's but has earlier roots.

The fact is sunday worship was not instituted by any Pope, or by Constantine. It existed as the primary celebration of the Church from the very beginning.

Acts 15:21 says, "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day".



In context with the Acts notation above, Peter's suggestion was to write out for the new believers 4 things they were to abstain from, with the conclusion they would learn about Moses when they heard him in the synagogue every Sabbath day.

Any city with a large enough Jewish community would have a synagogue and the people who lived within the city would go to the synagogue on the sabbath. The synagogue, first of all, did not conduct sacrificial worship which was at the heart of the Jewish faith, and is at the heart of the Christian faith.

Christians did continue to go to synagogues on sabbath until they were forcibly thrown out by the Jews. Even after that many Christians (those who were able) devoted the sabbath to study and prayer. It was not, however, a requirement.

Further, any Jewish family which lived more than 2 miles from a synagogue would have been forbidden by the law from going to synagogue on the sabbath. 2 miles is actually the extended distance that came into use because of the pharisees extending the previous distance. The first specific distance given was 1 mile total, then it was extended to 2 miles total, then up to 4 miles total round trip.

The actual biblical command given by God was that no one was allowed to "go out of their place" on the sabbath. Much later the Rabbinical tradition interpreted 'his place' to mean the city in which he lived.

How early? I don't see this to be the consensus among the believers in the Bible.

Justin Martyr wrote about it around 150 AD. I've seen it talked about in other sources as well but he is the only one I can remember specifically off hand.


For reference, here is what the Early Christians taught about the sabbath, from Ignatius of Antioch. This guy lived during the life time of the apostles. He was a student of the apostle John, and was ordained bishop of Antioch by the apostles.

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death - whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith....Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness...Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven....It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity... Ignatius - To the Magnesians 9-10

This was written sometimes between 110 -120 AD, 50 to 60 years after Paul and Peter died, roughly and maybe about 10 years after John died (if he did ) It was written by Ignatius shortly before his own death by Martyrdom. In fact he was on his way to be executed in Rome when he wrote this.


*edit* I was incorrect in the dates on Ignatius. His Martyrdom took place between 98 AD and 117 AD, most likely in 108 AD, thus the letter above was probably written in 108 AD. By comparison, Peter and Paul were Martyred around 66-68 AD. John was released from his exile on Patmos around 96 AD (there is no clear recorded death date for John).

Also, I don't think Ignatius was condemning study or worship on the sabbath, or going to a synagogue necessarily. He was speaking about those who believe it is a requirement to keep the sabbath in the context of the Mosaic covenant of Sinai.

*2nd Edit*
The early Christians, such as Ignatius, and Justin Martyr did NOT consider sunday to be a new sabbath. They didn't advocate keeping the sabbath at all in a legal sense. They didn't believe that the sabbath changed from saturday to sunday.
I think that in much of the Church that general idea (sunday is the new sabbath) did eventually become prevalent and the development of that idea may be traced to things like Constantine's sunday law etc. However, this had not so much to do with worshipping on sunday as it did with the sense of legalism which alway seems to accompany every group to some degree.

In more detail what Constantine did in his sunday decree was declare that all the courts (government offices) would be closed on sunday and decreed that slaves shouldn't be forced to work on sunday, with some exceptions for farmers.

Here is the actual decree from Constantine. It wasn't a formal law per say.

On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I'm assuming that you are confused about this link. It is not a link to Catholic material but in fact a link to 7th day adventist argument. The quotes listed on the site are not original source material quotes but rather quotes from text books and the like. The point of the site is to try and prove that the 7th day view point didn't originate in the 1800's but has earlier roots.

The fact is sunday worship was not instituted by any Pope, or by Constantine. It existed as the primary celebration of the Church from the very beginning.

I was not meaning that the site was catholic but I saw the quotes of Constantine and one of the popes. They do clarify that the pope did not change the sabbath to Sunday, but point out that it was he and Constantine's comments that started the ball rolling toward the day changing.

Any city with a large enough Jewish community would have a synagogue and the people who lived within the city would go to the synagogue on the sabbath. The synagogue, first of all, did not conduct sacrificial worship which was at the heart of the Jewish faith, and is at the heart of the Christian faith.

Christians did continue to go to synagogues on sabbath until they were forcibly thrown out by the Jews. Even after that many Christians (those who were able) devoted the sabbath to study and prayer. It was not, however, a requirement.

Further, any Jewish family which lived more than 2 miles from a synagogue would have been forbidden by the law from going to synagogue on the sabbath. 2 miles is actually the extended distance that came into use because of the pharisees extending the previous distance. The first specific distance given was 1 mile total, then it was extended to 2 miles total, then up to 4 miles total round trip.

The actual biblical command given by God was that no one was allowed to "go out of their place" on the sabbath. Much later the Rabbinical tradition interpreted 'his place' to mean the city in which he lived.

I understand what you are saying. Per the scripture though, I was pointing out that there was teaching going on in the cities in the synagogues and people were there. As for the people who lived too far out to walk on the Sabbath itself, what would keep them from walking the distance needed on Friday afternoon, spending Shabbat with family who did live in the city? What was to keep families in small communities from gathering together and reading the portions for the week and singing the prayers together as a community? I'm far from being an expert on the subject but I believe even in a small little town there could be a Rabbi who would lead the people of that community.

I know I could be wrong but I still see it as a possibility.


Justin Martyr wrote about it around 150 AD. I've seen it talked about in other sources as well but he is the only one I can remember specifically off hand.


For reference, here is what the Early Christians taught about the sabbath, from Ignatius of Antioch. This guy lived during the life time of the apostles. He was a student of the apostle John, and was ordained bishop of Antioch by the apostles.

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death - whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith....Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness...Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven....It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity... Ignatius - To the Magnesians 9-10

This was written sometimes between 110 -120 AD, 50 to 60 years after Paul and Peter died, roughly and maybe about 10 years after John died (if he did ) It was written by Ignatius shortly before his own death by Martyrdom. In fact he was on his way to be executed in Rome when he wrote this.[/quote]

Again, I don't see the references made by anyone in the Bible.

 

[LeadWorship]

Black suit and tie could be a mormon.

... or one of the Blues Brothers. I bet it was Jake. No no... Elwood!

Sorry, just had too.

 

[DianeL]

... or one of the Blues Brothers. I bet it was Jake. No no... Elwood!

Sorry, just had too.

Too funny ! They were/are so good !

 

[Svt4Him]

The fact is sunday worship was not instituted by any Pope, or by Constantine. It existed as the primary celebration of the Church from the very beginning.

Have to cite this claim from a reliable site, as I have information to show this to be false, at least regarding the primary celebration of the church. Not only that, but the use of the word Church needs to be understood historically.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Have to cite this claim from a reliable site, as I have information to show this to be false, at least regarding the primary celebration of the church. Not only that, but the use of the word Church needs to be understood historically.

I agree the the word Church needs to be understood historically, but most protestants are not willing to do that.

As to the sources.

Acts 20:7

7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

Breaking bread is a reference to the communion service which was and is the primary worship service of the Church. This verse tells us that in acts, the Christians were already gathering on the first day of the week for communion. In this particular instance, Paul preached a sermon that stretched out into the wee hours of the night.

1st Corinthians

2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem.

In this passage Paul commends them to set aside an offering every sunday to eventually be sent to Jerusalem to support the Church there.

Revelation 1:10

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet

Here John receives the Revelation while he is worshipping on sunday.

The Didache, the earliest written Christian document (other than the bible itself) was written during the new testament era. It says

14:1 And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
14:2 And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled;
14:3 for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord;
14:4 {In every place and at every time offer Me a pure sacrifice;
14:5 for I am a great king, saith the Lord and My name is wonderful among the nations.}

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch, ordained by Peter and taught by John said the following, which I quoted in one of my posts above. (in around 108 AD)

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death - whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith....Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness...Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven....It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity... Ignatius - To the Magnesians 9-10


Justin Martyr, a Christian in Rome, wrote a detailed description of the practices of the Church. He wrote the following, around 150 AD.

The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.

On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.

The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration.

I bolded the portions that refer directly to sunday worship, but I'd encourage you to read the whole thing as it is a detailed description of how the early Church really worshiped.



Now, really, the Church's gatherings were not limited to sunday. Some of the early Christians did see it as a new kind of sabbath, seeing it as the fulfillment of what is spoken of in Hebrews. However, it was seen as a sabbath in this sense, not as a replacement of saturday, but rather as the fulfillment of the very concept of the sabbath because our rest is in the Risen Christ and the resurrection occured on sunday. Thus it isn't the same kind of legal requirement and its also not limited to that day, it is every day, it just began on that day.

 

[Svt4Him]

Because they got together the first day is in no way indicating that they worshiped that day any different than the rest of the week. As a matter of fact, even before 'Church' was started that phrase was used to describe a certain day that had no reference to the post-Christ resurrection. But it was not used to infer that was a day of worship, only that it was the first day of the week. It's no different than me saying on Monday I start work. It doesn't mean I don't work during the rest of the week, and there is nothing in Scripture to support that it was ever meant to mean more than that. As for when Jesus arose that too is speculation, depending on which day you think He was crucified. But even that debate aside, there is nothing to indicate that Jesus didn't arise from the dead Saturday evening, so again to use that as an indication of when we go to church would seem to gloss over this fact. As for Justin, good on him, and that really is great, but we do that on Tuesdays and do similar things. Again it doesn't make it how it was in the beginning. The seventh day is Saturday, any change from that simply removes the religiosity from the practice and recognizes it was made for man, not man from it. But one day is not more divine than another.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Because they got together the first day is in no way indicating that they worshiped that day any different than the rest of the week. As a matter of fact, even before 'Church' was started that phrase was used to describe a certain day that had no reference to the post-Christ resurrection. But it was not used to infer that was a day of worship, only that it was the first day of the week. It's no different than me saying on Monday I start work. It doesn't mean I don't work during the rest of the week, and there is nothing in Scripture to support that it was ever meant to mean more than that. As for when Jesus arose that too is speculation, depending on which day you think He was crucified. But even that debate aside, there is nothing to indicate that Jesus didn't arise from the dead Saturday evening, so again to use that as an indication of when we go to church would seem to gloss over this fact. As for Justin, good on him, and that really is great, but we do that on Tuesdays and do similar things. Again it doesn't make it how it was in the beginning. The seventh day is Saturday, any change from that simply removes the religiosity from the practice and recognizes it was made for man, not man from it. But one day is not more divine than another.

I'm not saying that Christians HAVE TO worship on sunday. Christians can and should worship every day. I tried to make that clear in the last paragraph of my previous post.

The point I'm trying to make is basically what Justin Martyr said...

"On sunday we have a common assembly of all our members..."

Justin describes how he had basically a small group of Christians that met frequently in his appartment. They met more than just sunday. In big cities there were groups all over the city that met literally daily. However, they tried so much as they were able to all gather together on Sunday for a common assembly of all, to participate in Communion.

Justin also makes it clear that not everyone was able to come to the sunday gathering and he points out that after the communion service the deacons would take communion to those Christians who were not able to attend.

 

[BlackSabb]

Regarding SDA's, just go to the Adventist sections on CF and see for yourselves the unbelievable amount of threads on the Sabbath and grace vs law. In fact, this is the only denomination with this amount of threads on these subjects. It would be fair to say that there is an obsession with the Sabbath, the 10 commandments and keeping the law. Roughly every third thread is about one of these subjects.

Does this sound like a balanced denomination to you?