Something I can never understand - can anyone help?

[Moral Orel]

If God is not creator of this universe, universe is the creator of it/himself. Either way, we have some that has existed always, or created it/himself. Personally I don’t think material has any ability to create anything, so if world exists without God, it must have been forever. And by what I have read and seen, I don’t think it is possible that universe would have existed eternally, because all things in nature seem to go to direction which is destructive. Human genome seems to be degenerating, materials get weaker by erosion and atoms seek state that needs less energy, which means for example that iron rust away. Nothing in this world seems to be creating/building force, except maybe humans.

In my opinion it is just not reasonable scientifically to assume that natural world could create itself from nothing or exist without God. However God is different thing, because according to the Bible, God is spirit (John 4:24). Spirit has no known limitations, therefore He is more plausible.

There are lots of things that nature creates. What about forests that spread just by planting seeds all around their edges? Mountains are created by the movement of tectonic plates, islands are formed by erupting volcanoes.

And if we look out in space we can find these things too. Nebulae are just baby stars that form solar systems just by using gravity. After a star goes supernova, it creates heavier elements that allow new things to be created as well.

And some things are created just by a cycle of things as well. Think about the Grand Canyon. A river ran through it and created it by carving it, and then ran back into the ocean, and then the ocean poured back into the mouth of the river. We may just not understand where all the matter and energy go after it all seems used up.

 

[Simonline]

Christians, well in fact Muslims and Jews and for all I know many other religions "explain" the existence of the universe, the solar system, humanity etc by the fact it was created by a God (maybe the same god, maybe not?), and some justify this by saying that the chances of intelligent life are near impossible without a creator.

What I can't understand is where did this God come from? If the chances of intelligent life evolving over billions of years are very remote, then what are the chances of a being existing who is capable of making the heavens and everything in them just by willing it to happen. Where did he/ she/ it come from, who made God?

in my atheist, logical mind, the existence of this all powerful, all pervading being seems much more unlikely than natural forces evolving in tiny steps over billions of years, resulting in where we are now. What do Christians think about the origins of God, and if the answer is that God "just exists", why can't the universe "just exist"?

Forget 'intelligent life', if God does not exist then how does one explain the existence of absolutely anything else?! According to the Bible, the only reason that absolutely anything at all exists is because it was brought into existence from nothing by the Eternal and Immutable Divine Creator (Gen.1-2; Acts.17:16-34; Col.1:15-16; Rev.4:11). This is the only explanation which makes metaphysical sense and is also metaphysically non-contradictory.

Your incorrect assumption is that absolutely everything that exists must have had a point of origin. Whilst that is absolutely true for all created things it is NOT true of the Creator Himself (Jn.4:24). YHWH has declared Himself to be both Eternal (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8; 2:8; 21:6; 22:13) and Immutable (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17). This means that He has ALWAYS existed and that there is absolutely no point where He does not exist or has ever changed. God [YHWH] and God [YHWH] alone is absolute reality upon which all other reality is contingent.

Simonline.

 

[OzSpen]

There are lots of things that nature creates. What about forests that spread just by planting seeds all around their edges? Mountains are created by the movement of tectonic plates, islands are formed by erupting volcanoes.

And if we look out in space we can find these things too. Nebulae are just baby stars that form solar systems just by using gravity. After a star goes supernova, it creates heavier elements that allow new things to be created as well.

And some things are created just by a cycle of things as well. Think about the Grand Canyon. A river ran through it and created it by carving it, and then ran back into the ocean, and then the ocean poured back into the mouth of the river. We may just not understand where all the matter and energy go after it all seems used up.

Nature does not create from nothing, ex nihilo. Take your examples:

1. Forests that spread by planting seeds. Who created seeds in the first place? They were created from existing material.
   
2. Mountains created by movement of tectonic plates. Who created the tectonic plates?
3. Islands formed by erupting volcanoes. It is based on creation from existing material. Who made the first existing material?
4. It's the same with nebulae, stars, etc.
5. Grand Canyon and river are based on existing materials.

Nature does not create as God created in the beginning (Genesis 1).

 

[Moral Orel]

Nature does not create from nothing, ex nihilo. Take your examples:

1. Forests that spread by planting seeds. Who created seeds in the first place? They were created from existing material.
   
2. Mountains created by movement of tectonic plates. Who created the tectonic plates?
3. Islands formed by erupting volcanoes. It is based on creation from existing material. Who made the first existing material?
4. It's the same with nebulae, stars, etc.
5. Grand Canyon and river are based on existing materials.

Nature does not create as God created in the beginning (Genesis 1).

Who ever said that the matter and energy that the universe consists of came into existence out of nothing? The leading theories all state that it came from a source or that it changed form. Just like everything else I listed. The universe used to be a singularity now it's a great big thing. It didn't have to come into existence any more than God did.

 

[Moral Orel]

Your incorrect assumption is that absolutely everything that exists must have had a point of origin. Whilst that is absolutely true for all created things it is NOT true of the Creator Himself

Your incorrect assumption is that any thing that exists must have had a point of origin. The OP asked why it isn't possible that the universe always existed if it's possible that God always existed. Just because the universe was different before the big bang, doesn't mean that all the matter and energy came into existence.

 

[OzSpen]

Who ever said that the matter and energy that the universe consists of came into existence out of nothing? The leading theories all state that it came from a source or that it changed form. Just like everything else I listed. The universe used to be a singularity now it's a great big thing. It didn't have to come into existence any more than God did.

What does ex nihilo mean?

See, 'What does Creation "ex nihilo" mean?'

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Nature does not create from nothing, ex nihilo.

We don't know whether anything is capable of ex nihilo creation.

Nature does not create as God created in the beginning (Genesis 1).

This claim is in need of evidence.

 

[OzSpen]

We don't know whether anything is capable of ex nihilo creation.

This claim is in need of evidence.

1. Yes, we do know of someone who is capable of ex nihilo creation. Read Gen 1:1 (ESV).
2. You want evidence of nature not creating as God created in the beginning. I provided you with examples from #181 where pre-existing material was necessary for nature to create. Can you provide me with evidence of nature creating out of nothing?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

1. Yes, we do know of someone who is capable of ex nihilo creation. Read Gen 1:1 (ESV).

Why should I accept what Genesis 1 or 2 has to say about the matter?

2. You want evidence of nature not creating as God created in the beginning. I provided you with examples from #181 where pre-existing material was necessary for nature to create. Can you provide me with evidence of nature creating out of nothing?

I didn't claim that nature is capable of ex nihilo creation, or more precisely, that ex nihilo creation occurs in nature; I said that we don't know. We don't experience things beginning to exist ex nihilo.

 

[OzSpen]

Why should I accept what Genesis 1 or 2 has to say about the matter?

I didn't claim that nature is capable of ex nihilo creation, or more precisely, that ex nihilo creation occurs in nature; I said that we don't know. We don't experience things beginning to exist ex nihilo.

You don't have to accept what Gen 1-2 says about the origin of life. You are a free will person who can choose not to believe.

Sorry that I gave the wrong referral back to #181 when it should have been #183 and it was not a response to you but to another person. In 183, from the examples given by Nicholas D, I showed that nature does not create out of nothing. It needs pre-existing matter to create.

'All things were made through him [the Word - Jesus], and without him was not any thing made that was made' (John 1:3 ESV).

I encourage you to investigate what Genesis 1-2 says about the origin of life. I have found it to fit well with the available evidence. And the Fall into sin of Gen 3 fits like a hand in glove with what is happening in our world.

Oz

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You don't have to accept what Gen 1-2 says about the origin of life. You are a free will person who can choose not to believe.

Sorry that I gave the wrong referral back to #181 when it should have been #183 and it was not a response to you but to another person. In 183, from the examples given by Nicholas D, I showed that nature does not create out of nothing. It needs pre-existing matter to create.

As far as we are aware, I agree: we don't experience things beginning to exist ex nihilo. But you are claiming that ex nihilo creation is a real phenomenon and, moreover, that you know the conditions necessary for it to happen.

'All things were made through him [the Word - Jesus], and without him was not any thing made that was made' (John 1:3 ESV).

Any reason to believe this claim?

I encourage you to investigate what Genesis 1-2 says about the origin of life. I have found it to fit well with the available evidence. And the Fall into sin of Gen 3 fits like a hand in glove with what is happening in our world.

Read literally, I have found found that it does not fit well with the available evidence. The chronology is misaligned with the evidence, literally by billions of years.

 

[OzSpen]

As far as we are aware, I agree: we don't experience things beginning to exist ex nihilo. But you are claiming that ex nihilo creation is a real phenomenon and, moreover, that you know the conditions necessary for it to happen.

Any reason to believe this claim?

Read literally, I have found found that it does not fit well with the available evidence. The chronology is misaligned with the evidence, literally by billions of years.

Arch,

If you don't accept the omnipotence of the Almighty God of creation and his supernatural ability, you will not be able to accept an ex nihilo creation where God said and did,

'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light”, and there was light (Gen 1:1-3).​

I, as a science student in high school and university, was not able to accept this, based on the worldview my teachers and lecturers tried to push on me.

It was only when the Trinitarian God opened my heart and eyes to His reality, that I was able to 'see' what God has done, based on what he has stated and demonstrated.

In fact, without his sustenance, you and I would not be at our computers being able to interact like this. You may not accept this, but this is what God has told us is His role in sustaining your life and mine and all of creation.

' For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together' (Col 1:16-17).​

Your billions of years evidence for chronology is another topic, but I hope you understand that this 'billions of years' conclusion is coming from your worldview. The Bible doesn't actually tell us how old the universe is. We can deduce some things, but I do not find that they are necessarily definitive.

While the scientific worldview is dominated by an old earth view (which you want to align with the evidence), my examination of the evidence points more to presuppositions dominating the science than the actual evidence.

Oz

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Arch,

If you don't accept the omnipotence of the Almighty God of creation and his supernatural ability, you will not be able to accept an ex nihilo creation where God said and did,

I see no reason to believe that such a being exists, much less that he did what was claimed in Genesis 1:1-3.

Your billions of years evidence for chronology is another topic, but I hope you understand that this 'billions of years' conclusion is coming from your worldview. The Bible doesn't actually tell us how old the universe is. We can deduce some things, but I do not find that they are necessarily definitive.

We don't need the Bible to learn about the age of the Earth.

 

[Simonline]

Who ever said that the matter and energy that the universe consists of came into existence out of nothing? The leading theories all state that it came from a source or that it changed form. Just like everything else I listed. The universe used to be a singularity now it's a great big thing. It didn't have to come into existence any more than God did.

The God who actually brought it all into existence in the first place?! Matter and energy did not exist until God brought it into existence ex nihilo (Gen.1-2; Col.1:15-16; Rev.4:11).

The leading theories are all irrelevent since none of their proponents were around at the Begining to witness what actually happened (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13).

Assuming that the Universe was a singularity you still have to demonstrate how that singularity came about. Who or what caused that singularity to exist in the first place (ad infinitum)?

Simonline.

 

[Moral Orel]

Assuming that the Universe was a singularity you still have to demonstrate how that singularity came about. Who or what caused that singularity to exist in the first place (ad infinitum)?

No I don't. The singularity always existed. I don't have to explain that any more than you have to explain where God came from.

The God who actually brought it all into existence in the first place?! Matter and energy did not exist until God brought it into existence ex nihilo (Gen.1-2; Col.1:15-16; Rev.4:11).

The leading theories are all irrelevent since none of their proponents were around at the Begining to witness what actually happened (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13).

The Bible proves the Bible is true. Got it.

 

[Simonline]

Your incorrect assumption is that any thing that exists must have had a point of origin. The OP asked why it isn't possible that the universe always existed if it's possible that God always existed. Just because the universe was different before the big bang, doesn't mean that all the matter and energy came into existence.

Firstly, I have NEVER assumed that anything which exists must have had a point of origin since I know that not to be the case?! Whilst the entire Creation has to have had a definite point of origin that cannot be true of the Eternal God who brought the entire Creation into existence ex nihilo (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13).

The reason why the universe is neither eternal (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13) nor immutable (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17) is because the universe is not God (Jn.4:24). The universe is God's creation (Gen.1-2; Col.1:15-16; Rev.4:11) which is entirely separate from God Himself.

Simonline.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The God who actually brought it all into existence in the first place?! Matter and energy did not exist until God brought it into existence ex nihilo (Gen.1-2; Col.1:15-16; Rev.4:11).

Evidence?

Assuming that the Universe was a singularity you still have to demonstrate how that singularity came about. Who or what caused that singularity to exist in the first place (ad infinitum)?

We don't know.

 

[Simonline]

No I don't. The singularity always existed. I don't have to explain that any more than you have to explain where God came from.

I don't have to explain from where God came because He didn't come from anywhere, but you have to explain from where the universe came if not from God creating it (and your explanation has to be metaphysically coherent and internally consistent)?!

The Bible proves the Bible is true. Got it.

If you're just going to sumarily dismiss everything I say then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Simonline.

 

[Moral Orel]

Take a close look at these two statements:

I have NEVER assumed that anything which exists must have had a point of origin

the entire Creation has to have had a definite point of origin

This is known as cognitive dissonance.

I don't have to explain from where God came because He didn't come from anywhere

I don't have to explain from where the universe came because it didn't come from anywhere.
You can ask me to explain what caused the big bang, but that isn't a question of where the universe came from, it is just a question of what caused it to change form.

 

[Moral Orel]

Firstly, I have NEVER assumed that anything which exists must have had a point of origin since I know that not to be the case?! Whilst the entire Creation has to have had a definite point of origin that cannot be true of the Eternal God who brought the entire Creation into existence ex nihilo (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13).

The reason why the universe is neither eternal (Isa.48:12; Rev.1:8; 21:6; 22:13) nor immutable (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17) is because the universe is not God (Jn.4:24). The universe is God's creation (Gen.1-2; Col.1:15-16; Rev.4:11) which is entirely separate from God Himself.

Simonline.

Actually, I see the problem. I very carefully, and correctly said "any thing" space included, it's important. And you changed it to "anything" which means something different. You assume that things need a point of origin, except for God, and I believe that things don't need a point of origin.