98cwitr

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Have you heard of this radical new invention called democracy?

The workers vote.

Who gets to draft the "legislation?" Is it a pure democracy or just a representative republic?

To stay on topic, I think the real issue with democratic socialism is that you get to vote for your own slave master...but you're still a slave nevertheless.
 
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Bradskii

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As long as systems are voluntary in their participation, then yes.

Putting food on the table is not a voluntary act. Neither is clothing your kids and keeping a roof over their heads. Or paying the medical bills on your child's hospital visit. Neither is keeping the family warm. Keeping the wolf from the door is not a voluntary act.

I'll tell you what a voluntary act is. It's deciding what colour the uniform will be on the pilot who flies your helicopter that lands on the vessel that supports your 400' yacht. But maybe Jeff pays someone who makes those sort of decisions for him.

I presume he also pays someone to make sure that his employers are paid just over the poverty line. Way to go, Jeff!
 
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Ken-1122

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The fact that small businesses have a high failure rate does nothing to refute the point that businesses owners can and do continue to extract income/value from their businesses even when there's no profit.

Companies can be losing money and the owners will still get paid - even extravagantly. There are literally thousands of business and remuneration structures around that limit the liabilities of owners while ensuring they continue to earn an income.

At the moment, the firm I work for is doing advisory work on an business jet firm winding up operations. The company NEVER generated a profit in ~8 years of operations, but its co-founders are walking away MUCH richer than when they started the business. The biggest losers out of the whole thing are its suppliers and debt holders.



Sure. The question was "who is gonna invest their time and capital to start a company, just to give it to the laborers?"

To which I answer:
People with a sense of fairness and morality;
People with a sense of community;
People who weren't raised with a "%^&* you I've got mine" mentality;
People who realise that sharing in the success of a firm can help motivate a workforce;
People who realise that business success isn't necessarily limited to classical/neoconservative metrics of profit, return on capital, return on equity and share value;
People who feel obligated to share their success and realise that a rising tide can lift all boats;
People who believe that their business success was the result of collective effort and risk, and so the fruits of that should be shared
People who realise that workers' share of profits has dropped precipitously over the past 50 years, while the share of those who have money and use money to make more money has risen
People who want to attract more and better workers to their company

Those sort of people.
Okay; just so there is no confusion about what you are talking about, your view is that a person who has a vision of starting a company, invest his life’s savings into starting the company, then as soon as the company is up and running, he should turn the entire business over to the people he hired to make his widgets; people without his vision, people with different goals in mind than he had when he started the business, people with no experience in running a company, people who invested nothing, or borrowed no money to get the company started, (so if everything runs into the ground, they pretty much do not have a dog in the fight, they can just take their widget making skills to another company and run it into the ground) your view is that the person who risked everything to start the company should turn it over to these people and hope everything works out okay; is this your vision of how things should be? If not, tell me where I’ve gone wrong.
 
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Ken-1122

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Someone who is also a laborer.
Lots of laborers start business; but once they start the business, they choose not to turn the business over to the people he hired; just because you are a good worker doesn’t mean you are a good manager
Have you not been able to wrap your head around the idea of a business that is collectively owned by the workers rather than owned by a single capitalist?
Happens all the time! I know of many cases of several people coming together and start an LLC and they work the business until eventually they get big enough to hire staff. But it would be foolish for them to turn everything over to the staff they hired, it’s their vision, they decide the direction of the company they started, not the staff who does not share their vision nor their investment.
The workers collectively invest in the business, and they collectively make the decisions of the business.
What happens when the workers make decisions the guys that started the company consider bad decisions? Do they have to go along with those bad decisions? After all the workers don’t really care if the business goes under, they’ve invested nothing and they can just take their skills somewhere else; but the guy who invested everything, lost everything. Does that sound fair to you?
 
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morningstar2651

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Lots of laborers start business; but once they start the business, they choose not to turn the business over to the people he hired; just because you are a good worker doesn’t mean you are a good manager

Happens all the time! I know of many cases of several people coming together and start an LLC and they work the business until eventually they get big enough to hire staff. But it would be foolish for them to turn everything over to the staff they hired, it’s their vision, they decide the direction of the company they started, not the staff who does not share their vision nor their investment.

What happens when the workers make decisions the guys that started the company consider bad decisions? Do they have to go along with those bad decisions? After all the workers don’t really care if the business goes under, they’ve invested nothing and they can just take their skills somewhere else; but the guy who invested everything, lost everything. Does that sound fair to you?
Maybe they should be a bit more selective about who they want to work with.

What happens when the capitalist makes bad decisions? The workers have to go along with those bad decisions. Maybe that decision is to fire all the workers and move the factory to China to pay below minimum wage. Maybe the owner's bad decision is to lay off 200 people and pay themselves a multi-million dollar bonus. Arguing that a collectively-owned company is less fair to the "owner" shows that you clearly can't even imagine a company without an owner to boss around employees.

Self-organizing teams work. We've been using them in software development for a while. Valve eliminated formal hierarchy over a decade ago. People don't need a boss to tell them what to work on. If there is work to be done and a worker will commit to doing that work, then they can select the work they will do.
 
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morningstar2651

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Okay; just so there is no confusion about what you are talking about, your view is that a person who has a vision of starting a company, invest his life’s savings into starting the company, then as soon as the company is up and running, he should turn the entire business over to the people he hired to make his widgets; people without his vision, people with different goals in mind than he had when he started the business, people with no experience in running a company, people who invested nothing, or borrowed no money to get the company started, (so if everything runs into the ground, they pretty much do not have a dog in the fight, they can just take their widget making skills to another company and run it into the ground) your view is that the person who risked everything to start the company should turn it over to these people and hope everything works out okay; is this your vision of how things should be? If not, tell me where I’ve gone wrong.
You've got a lot wrong here.

First of all, the idea of a single owner as a visionary. That's a very propagandistic view of how businesses work. Most owners aren't brilliant visionaries...they're just rich.


Second, you're assuming that there is one owner and that they are giving up ownership of their company to the people who do the work.

Imagine a group of 7 people that decide they want to work together. Maybe they want to launch a restaurant that they collectively own. They don't need to turn the business over to the workers. They are the workers.
 
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Bradskii

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Imagine a group of 7 people that decide they want to work together. Maybe they want to launch a restaurant that they collectively own. They don't need to turn the business over to the workers. They are the workers.

The simple question is this: Who would you work harder for? Someone else or yourself?
 
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cow451

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The simple question is this: Who would you work harder for? Someone else or yourself?
The two most overrated things in life are weddings and self-employment.:preach:
 
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98cwitr

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Putting food on the table is not a voluntary act. Neither is clothing your kids and keeping a roof over their heads. Or paying the medical bills on your child's hospital visit. Neither is keeping the family warm. Keeping the wolf from the door is not a voluntary act.

All of those things are already provided by social welfare programs. You literally don't even have to work at all to get those things in 2021.

I'll tell you what a voluntary act is. It's deciding what colour the uniform will be on the pilot who flies your helicopter that lands on the vessel that supports your 400' yacht. But maybe Jeff pays someone who makes those sort of decisions for him.

I presume he also pays someone to make sure that his employers are paid just over the poverty line. Way to go, Jeff!

Hey...they agreed to the wage. They are also free to find other, more gainful employment if they are not satisfied. What they are not free to do is retain the total sum of the fruits of their labors. No matter where they go, or who they work for (even themselves), Uncle Sam is going to take a piece for himself and do with it as he (collectively) pleases. You wanna issue a grievance about voluntary labor and the fruits thereof? Look no further than the 16th amendment.
 
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Bradskii

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All of those things are already provided by social welfare programs. You literally don't even have to work at all to get those things in 2021.



Hey...they agreed to the wage. They are also free to find other, more gainful employment if they are not satisfied. What they are not free to do is retain the total sum of the fruits of their labors. No matter where they go, or who they work for (even themselves), Uncle Sam is going to take a piece for himself and do with it as he (collectively) pleases. You wanna issue a grievance about voluntary labor and the fruits thereof? Look no further than the 16th amendment.

So you're good with the status quo. I guess life's ok for you as it is. In which case it seems there's no need for you to want to change anything.
 
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Ken-1122

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Maybe they should be a bit more selective about who they want to work with.
So when you hire someone to make widgets, you don't hire the best widget maker, you have to hire the person who knows how to make widgets and is also a good manager also? Doesn't that put you at a disadvantage?

What happens when the capitalist makes bad decisions?
What do you mean by Capitalist? In your scenario, the workers ARE capitalists. As far as the initial investor, if he makes a bad decision, the worse case scenario for the worker is that he no longer has a job which puts him in the same position he was before the initial investor started the company.
 
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98cwitr

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So you're good with the status quo. I guess life's ok for you as it is. In which case it seems there's no need for you to want to change anything.

I'm good with liberty and freedom. If that's the status quo then sure, but it aint. The 16th amendment ensures that liberty and freedom are limited in regards to our retention of the fruit of our labor. Public ownership of labor is public slavery.
 
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Ken-1122

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Fat chance. And he sold the company a couple of years after I left and made an absolute fortune. If it had been me I'd be writing this in my 50' yacht in Monaco right now. But he started another company and is still working 80+ hours a week. Go figure.
Why does that surprise you? These kind of people like the work that they do; many of them will work till the day they die.
 
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Ken-1122

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You've got a lot wrong here.

First of all, the idea of a single owner as a visionary. That's a very propagandistic view of how businesses work. Most owners aren't brilliant visionaries...they're just rich.
Was Jeff Bezos born rich? Was Mark Zuckerberg born rich? Remember; 80% of our richest are first generation rich! Your idea that successful business owners are just rich people who throw their extra money around to start business is wrong; if that were the case half of them wouldn’t be failing within the first 5 years, they would just throw more money at it.

Second, you're assuming that there is one owner and that they are giving up ownership of their company to the people who do the work.

Imagine a group of 7 people that decide they want to work together. Maybe they want to launch a restaurant that they collectively own. They don't need to turn the business over to the workers. They are the workers.
So what happens when the business grows to the point that the group of 7 needs to hire more people? Do the 7 still get to maintain control of the business? Or do they allow the workers who have no experience in management, no investment in the company, have just as much control of running the business as they do?
 
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Bradskii

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I'm good with liberty and freedom.

No, I was talking about the financial situation. You seem happy with the way things are structured right now. I guess you'd vote to maintain it.
 
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