So While CF is down Frank Viola's book arrives...

MrJim

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"Pagan Christianity" oh, brother...See, I was sorta all settled into perhaps the Orthodox church and hadn't counted out Roman Catholic. Viola has screwed up some things for right now.Ya know, it never dawned on me about all the things that are so obvious. I can see why there is an ongoing thread here called the Pastor King. That it's only mentioned once---and yet so much is built around it...Now the established church will say that the "church" was never meant to stay in an embryonic stage as it was in the early days. They will say that it is ridiculous to think that it derailed so soon out of the chute. I want to agree with that premise. But Mr. Viola (and you are guilty because you suggested it) has caused me to retrace my steps.I was so comfortable to embrace an ancient tradition-something seemed right about it but something seemed not right about it.Thanks for throwing another curve...now I need to check out that "Wineskin" book of his.For so long I have said to my fellow believers that "We are not doing this right". Somehow this seems to be maybe closer to what I've thought Christianity is to be...Prayers appreciated.
 

TrueWords

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Amen!!

Things are alot more shocking than many imagine.

I have met Frank, heis a serious person, at least when i met him. But he is easy to approach. There use to be a south carolina house church conference in the summer, you should check the house church network, Steve Atkerson also, and go to a conference in the future, i found them very refreshing, hundered of people from all over the country come and from fmany different house meetings all sorts of topics discussed and different seminars etc. lots of book, tapes etc.

just a thought.

We have been meeting in our homes for about 14 or 15 years or so, and we can never go back ito the religious system. I know there are many many believers caught up in it, but we had to come out once you have been lead home to gather around Christ and be free to move and live in him as you gather with others you won't want to go back.
 
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catlover

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menno said:
"Pagan Christianity" oh, brother...See, I was sorta all settled into perhaps the Orthodox church and hadn't counted out Roman Catholic. Viola has screwed up some things for right now.Ya know, it never dawned on me about all the things that are so obvious. I can see why there is an ongoing thread here called the Pastor King. That it's only mentioned once---and yet so much is built around it...Now the established church will say that the "church" was never meant to stay in an embryonic stage as it was in the early days. They will say that it is ridiculous to think that it derailed so soon out of the chute. I want to agree with that premise. But Mr. Viola (and you are guilty because you suggested it) has caused me to retrace my steps.I was so comfortable to embrace an ancient tradition-something seemed right about it but something seemed not right about it.Thanks for throwing another curve...now I need to check out that "Wineskin" book of his.For so long I have said to my fellow believers that "We are not doing this right". Somehow this seems to be maybe closer to what I've thought Christianity is to be...Prayers appreciated.

Is it really that bad that the early churches adopted some practices to attract pagans to the Christian religion?
 
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plum

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catlover said:
Is it really that bad that the early churches adopted some practices to attract pagans to the Christian religion?
it's clear that G-d does not take kindly to "mixing" pagan practices with His own appointed practices.

is it really that bad? That's kind of like asking "is it really that bad to take sleeping pills with alcohol?
*shrug* just my thought on it.
 
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MrJim

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I was visiting some of my old haunts...words & ideas I was comfortable with before (nun, priest, established fast days, monks, vespers) sounded foreign...

Was the church meant to stay as a nomadic grassroot sort of movement or was it meant to grow? When Peter was given "keys to the kingdom" was it to be used by God to build a church? And then what was/is a "built" church to look like? An organization-world shaking powerhouse or was it to stay more like what Jesus and the apostles demonstrated?

Even in Acts there was a council-do home churches have councils amongst themselves? Acts 15 seems to record an authoritative demonstration of ecclesiatical power, unless I'm reading into it too much? Maybe just for a time when there were apostles?

If there was someone in charge at those churches that Paul and others wrote to, why weren't the leaders recognized? "Greeting to the pastor of Galatia" or something?
 
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New_Wineskin

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missju said:
it's clear that G-d does not take kindly to "mixing" pagan practices with His own appointed practices.

is it really that bad? That's kind of like asking "is it really that bad to take sleeping pills with alcohol?
*shrug* just my thought on it.

As a Gentile , the Lord gave no appointed practices to me .
 
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isawitonline

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missju said:
it's clear that G-d does not take kindly to "mixing" pagan practices with His own appointed practices.

is it really that bad? That's kind of like asking "is it really that bad to take sleeping pills with alcohol?
*shrug* just my thought on it.

I always thought the mixing of pagan and Christian traditions was part of the net result of Constantine's legalizing of Christianity in 313. He and the elders of the church at the time blended Christianity into the mainstream and over the course of 20 some years (from then until the Nicene Council) the church morphed -- although some may argue that process had been going on the 2nd Century.
 
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New_Wineskin

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BenAdam said:
My biggest problem with what he says is that just because pagans did something, doesn't mean it is a pagan practice.

Oh brother !! *rolling eyes*

You are quite right . It is like those going after Xmas and easter . Paul had no problems with the eating of meat sacrificed to pagan idols and people still go on and on about these things .
 
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hudsonja

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Oh brother !! *rolling eyes*

You are quite right . It is like those going after Xmas and easter . Paul had no problems with the eating of meat sacrificed to pagan idols and people still go on and on about these things .

I think that you're missing the point. Frank Viola & George Barna spent a great deal of time proving that many of our current church traditions have pagan origins, but they are not claiming that this makes them inherently wrong or evil. Their expressed purpose for showing the pagan roots is simply to remove the misconception that our long held traditions were mandated by the Bible, and are, therefore, above being questioned. It is only after divorcing these traditions from the Bible that the author goes on to attack them.

-JAH-
 
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New_Wineskin

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I think that you're missing the point. Frank Viola & George Barna spent a great deal of time proving that many of our current church traditions have pagan origins, but they are not claiming that this makes them inherently wrong or evil. Their expressed purpose for showing the pagan roots is simply to remove the misconception that our long held traditions were mandated by the Bible, and are, therefore, above being questioned. It is only after divorcing these traditions from the Bible that the author goes on to attack them.

Well , first off , Viola is an instutional wolf in home clothing . He was just as abusive in leadership doing the same things as what he rants against .

But , that is just an aside .

Ok , so , you say that it isn't about paganism being evil but that longstanding traditions are not based in the "bible" . Then why is the word "pagan" used instead of "secular" ? By using "pagan" , you are saying that the christianity has been compromised by false religions - what most of us have been discussing . If the word "secular" or something similar was used , it would show more clearly what you have been saying that they are saying .

Yet , that doesn't matter does it ? How many people do you know really care what is "biblically" based ? You certainly don't .

Point one : you use the term "bible" ( even capitalize it ) . This is a tradition that is not based in the Scriptures nor alluded to .

Point two : you didn't realize that traditions were not Scriptural by your own readings and observations of the Scriptures . You needed other humans pointing it out . And , from your saying that those two men "spent a great deal of time proving" something shows that they were not using the Scriptures only .

Point three : the whole idea of needing a Scriptural basis for tradition does not have a Scriptural basis . It is self-contraditing and hypocritical to use that concept .

My point is ... Very , VERY , few people who *claim* the value of the Scriptures actually look into them for a basis for the doctrines to which they adhere . Look at water baptism ... there are many people in groups named after the ritual . They won't even look at the Scriptures to show that their doctrine is not necessary for salvation . And , even though they would "say" that it wasn't needed for salvation , they would insist on it for their members ( in one way or another ) .

And , the doctrine of Scripture only ( sola Scriptura ) has so-little to go on from the Scriptures that the "experts" who "prove" the doctrine will quote two or three sentences from the Sriptures while having many pages of explaination as to why SS is correct . If you can't use the Scriptures only , you can't prove the doctrine of "Scripture only" . There are now those that claim that it isn't a doctrine but an application of a doctrine and so , it doesn't need to have a Scriptural basis .

Only a small handful of the major Christian doctrines have a sound Scriptural basis . But , none seem to care - especially those who claim that they do care .
 
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hudsonja

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I'm afraid that I greatly misunderstood the point that you were trying to make. Upon re-reading your response (now that it is the day, and I am not as tired), I realized that I had misinterpreted your words. For this reason I have removed my previous post, with a full apology.

-hudsonja
 
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Count

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Hey New Wineskin,

It's been a long time. :)

I have read most of Viola's books and I haven't seen something wrong in them. I haven't seen something institutional in them. Quite the opposite I would say. How can you say he is an institutional wolf in home clothing. You are supporting this by the books he has written, or by personal relationship with him?

I didn't understand much by the rest of your previous post. Can you say it in simplier words what is your contradiction with Viola's views about church? As far as I know you from your writings, I don't see any important difference between you and him. Both of you believe in an organic, spontanious church.
 
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