So God created some people knowing beforehand that they would go to Hell..

[Archaeopteryx]

Not really. We are limited in how much we can understand now. There is no time with God. Everything is before Him now, so Him knowing before hand is the only terms we can put it but God's ways our above ours.

That's awfully convenient though, isn't it? The religious will say that they know his will in meticulous detail and yet, when presented with a problem that places some element of dogma into doubt, "his ways are above our ways."

 

[benedictaoo]

It seems that he creates them for damnation.

No. He created the human race, human life and how ppl come into being. And we procreate and populate the earth, freely. We have the progative to do that. The people born, God allows that action, us to procreate. Our free will actions that results in other humans coming into existence. It not that He says this person I will create and I will create this one specifically to go to hell. That's absurd... We procreate human beings, we have a say in who is born and that's part of free will of mankind. So God doesn't create anyone in a bubble. We don't procreate randomly either. God is over it all, but He allows the freedom of man's will. Like a parent who let's their children go but watches over them. It's freedom but not abandonment.

Once conceived, He 'knows' all of us, what we will do, how we'll be and why. What will happen to us, how will be raised and what influnces we have. He does not interfere and that is what I think is the hardest part to grasp. Why would He let something bad happen to His creation if He is love? Free will of man to love in return is the answer, plain and simple.

And another dynamic called the devil is another. The enemy who is arbitrary, unfair, evil and who does not respect our freedom, that scum seeks who he'll devour. We have that influence on us as well,mixed with a sin nature. So take all that and you have mankinds dilemma. Freedom to choose rightly, and a clouded judgment that chooses wrongly.

So, we're conceived and with the sin nature, evil influences, where we are placed in life, etc, the grace God affords us, in the ways He affords it to each of us, combined with a lot of other factors. He's the only one who reads our hearts and knows everything and why, every choice we make and why. So humans are truly free but things out of our contol come into play, like being born in a situation thats hostile to God.God gives us grace and truth and light according to where ever we are at. And only God knows the reasons for our choices. But at the end of the day, when we die it is whether or not we want to be with Him. If we don't, I mean wrap your head around hating God, not wanting to be in His presence, being truly an evil person, regardless how you got that way, imagine it and we are free, God is not going to force you to be with Him for eternity if you hate Him. Just as He is not going to force you to believe in Him right now as you read this. It's your choice. Free willed choice. Right now, our lives is His grace and mercy because Jesus obtained His mercy and grace and satisfied His justice, so that means if you want forgiveness, mercy for your own personal sins, it's there...if you want it. Question is, do you.

 

[Davidnic]

That's awfully convenient though, isn't it? The religious will say that they know his will in meticulous detail and yet, when presented with a problem that places some element of dogma into doubt, "his ways are above our ways."

Actually Dogma says we can't know His will in meticulous detail. We can only know with certainty what has been revealed through divine revelation.

 

[benedictaoo]

That's awfully convenient though, isn't it? The religious will say that they know his will in meticulous detail and yet, when presented with a problem that places some element of dogma into doubt, "his ways are above our ways."

I don't know what religious you are referring to. No one can say explicitly what God's will is other than we know His will is for us to be saved. We know His will is goodness, not evil but to get into every detail of His will. No. That's not correct. Its not His will I eat Cheerios this morning, it my choice. It would not be His will I die from eating something harmful that will kill me, it would be my choice. God gives us enough truth to choose rightly. We are free to choose.

 

[Davidnic]

As per Dogma (from Ludwig Ott Bolded headings mine):

We can Not know God
God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men. (De fide.)

Our knowledge of God in this world is a composition of many inadequate concepts, and on account of this composition, it is necessarily limited and imperfect. The 4th Lateran Council (1215) and the Vatican Council, call God “incomprehensible” (incomprehensibilis), the Lateran Council also calls Him “ineffable” (ineffabilis). D 428, 1782. Cf. Jer. 32, 19 (according to the Vulgate: Magnus consilio et incomprehensibilis cogitatu: “great in council and incomprehensible in thought”). Rom. 2, 33: “How incomprehensible are His judgments, and how unsearchable His ways!” The Fathers, notably St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. John Chrysostom, defend the incomprehensibility of the Divine Essence by indicating the infinity and the sublimity of God in comparison with all creatures, against the Eunomians, who assumed an exhaustive

Ott, Ludwig. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Kindle Locations 1082-1089). The Mercier Press. Kindle Edition.

There is no presedtination to Hell (Positive or Double Reprobation)

Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Huss, and especially Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange (D 200),
Quiercy and Valence (D 316. 322) and by the Council of Trent (D 827). Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.


Ott, Ludwig. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Kindle Locations 6886-6890). The Mercier Press. Kindle Edition.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Actually Dogma says we can't know His will in meticulous detail. We can only know with certainty what has been revealed through divine revelation.

Hence the "awfully convenient" part.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't know what religious you are referring to. No one can say explicitly what God's will is other than we know His will is for us to be saved.

Unless he created you knowing that you would never be saved.

 

[Davidnic]

Hence the "awfully convenient" part.

Nope just Truth. And you are in the Catholic section debating our Dogma.

 

[Davidnic]

Closing so no one responds until the mods clean the thread