So a human being has a right to be born but not to healthcare

lordbt

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I dont care. I didn't.
Hmm. It must be someone else using your screen name of JustOneWay that wrote this then:
"It must not be too many because my impression from many conservatives are that unemployed people on the government dole are lazy and un-motivated."

Allhart mentioned the unemployed, you mentioned the unemployed, so I addressed the unemployed. Not sure what your problem is, but here's to you getting over it.
 
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Hmm. It must be someone else using your screen name of JustOneWay that wrote this then:
"It must not be too many because my impression from many conservatives are that unemployed people on the government dole are lazy and un-motivated."

Allhart mentioned the unemployed, you mentioned the unemployed, so I addressed the unemployed.
So what? That comment is unrelated to his story because it is apparent that he is not lazy or un-motivated. I dont expect you to understand my intent on that one, nor do I have the time to waste explaining it.
 
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allhart

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All right, I think our intent is prior to our own content, even context 99% of the time, however; I think we all know that Americans have proven itself in the past to be self reliant and hard-working people. We just need opportunity.
 
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Belk

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Thats mighty white of you. Now show me where you get the authority to do such a thing. I think we can rule the Bible out as a source since not one of the passages annrobert provided condones such behavior.

That would be the part where congress was given the right to collect taxes.

U.S. Tax Code On-Line

Since this is a representative democracy if enough people want it (and it is constitutional) laws get enacted and it becomes a reality.
 
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lordbt

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Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


I dont see taxation for the creation and support of medicare, medicaid, Social Security, Health care, auto bailouts, bank bailouts, public schools, food stamps, public housing.....do you? I realize that all of this is lumped into the General Welfare clause, but that was not the founders intent and none of these things are specifically enumerated. All we have done is given congress a blank check to do what it wants. That was never the intent of the document.

The Constitution exists for the sole purpose of limiting the power of the federal government. Those specific powers not delegated to it were left for the states or the people. The government is not there to violate the rights of the people but to protect them. Looks like we have lost our way.
 
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allhart

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That would be the part where congress was given the right to collect taxes.

U.S. Tax Code On-Line

Since this is a representative democracy if enough people want it (and it is constitutional) laws get enacted and it becomes a reality.
Then whats wrong with tax credits, not a role playing Gov. policy in health coverage? Put power back into the hands of the people. :thumbsup: Belk could you go back and look at my last 5 posts and get back to us?

Whats bad about socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money!
 
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keryakos

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What, you expect to stay unemployed for life? Unemployment and insurance options with tax credits, AND......? Medicare and medicaid is there for people.

If long durations of unemployment is your concern, if that's the case, you have more of a problem than health-care. As I do now,I have taken my tax credits from my house interest and have paid into cobra with a Gov. supplement.( I have some skin in it) My part for cobra is $321 plus 20% co-pays and Meds, so don't tell me it wouldn't work......

And I have only worked 4 weeks in the last year and have worked around all of my responsibility's as best I can, so with all this said life is pressing down on my family, but we want opportunity not a Gov. take-over!


You didnt answer my question you gave a smart alec response
 
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allhart

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You didnt answer my question you gave a smart alec response
I did respond legitimately to you. I guess you can't see the forest through the trees. The Gov. doesn't owe you, nor can the (working class) pick up the tab for all non-workers. Gov. can give your tax revenue back as health credits, and deregulated state lines for competition, along with regulations for independent bargaining for insurance plans/coverage, so if you aren't working you don't automatically lose your health-coverage etc. Medicare and medicaid, plus WICA(food stamps) are there for the disabled that can't work, for health coverage!
 
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sdmsanjose

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The issue of health care for all Americans will be influenced in part by the scriptures for some Christians. For some Christians the scriptures play as big of a role or in some cases a bigger role than personal advantages or any political ideology.

There have been a lot of scriptures posted on this thread that are directly related to how we Christians should view helping the poor and those less fortunate than our selves. I have great health care as I am a white collar worker and will gain nothing from a national health care plan but the scriptures are addressing the issue for helping others.

A few of the scriptures that have been posted are:

Matthew 25:44-45 (New International Version)

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'




Luke 14
12Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.

13But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:


14And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.



The scriptures above and the numerous others scriptres on this thread and in the Bible will influence some Christians on this debate.

Others will use political references such as national taxation to justify not helping the poor with health care and they will use their phrases such as “robbing the rich to give to the poor” and totally ignoring the scriptures that state:

“ From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked”
Luke 12:48 (New International Version)

They will also ignore other facts such as:

OUR taxes go for corporate welfare, subsidies to other Industries, etc.
The issue of taxes has been settled decades ago, we are going to pay taxes.
Collecting taxes is not theft it is a way for a nation to operate financially. “Even Jesus said “…GIVE unto Caesar what is Caesar’s….”

We are a “…. government of the people, by the people, for the people….”
If we believe that the scriptures want us to help the poor, and we have a voice in our government then we would want our government to help the poor and that includes health care.

There are those that will present all kinds of rationale for their opinions to oppose health care for the poor for personal, political, or other reasons but I want to encourage people to consider what the scriptures say. There have been a lot of scriptures posted in this thread and I hope they will be considered.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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The Constitution exists for the sole purpose of limiting the power of the federal government. Those specific powers not delegated to it were left for the states or the people. The government is not there to violate the rights of the people but to protect them. Looks like we have lost our way.

With all due respect for the Constitution (and it was a work of political genius, though not without flaws (3/5ths of a person, anyone?)), it was written for a smallish, agrarian republic. We are now a large, Information Age superpower. So it's not quite going to fit.
 
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allhart

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The issue of health care for all Americans will be influenced in part by the scriptures for some Christians. For some Christians the scriptures play as big of a role or in some cases a bigger role than personal advantages or any political ideology.

There have been a lot of scriptures posted on this thread that are directly related to how we Christians should view helping the poor and those less fortunate than our selves. I have great health care as I am a white collar worker and will gain nothing from a national health care plan but the scriptures are addressing the issue for helping others.

A few of the scriptures that have been posted are:




The scriptures above and the numerous others scriptres on this thread and in the Bible will influence some Christians on this debate.

Others will use political references such as national taxation to justify not helping the poor with health care and they will use their phrases such as “robbing the rich to give to the poor” and totally ignoring the scriptures that state:


They will also ignore other facts such as:

OUR taxes go for corporate welfare, subsidies to other Industries, etc.
The issue of taxes has been settled decades ago, we are going to pay taxes.
Collecting taxes is not theft it is a way for a nation to operate financially. “Even Jesus said “…GIVE unto Caesar what is Caesar’s….”

We are a “…. government of the people, by the people, for the people….”
If we believe that the scriptures want us to help the poor, and we have a voice in our government then we would want our government to help the poor and that includes health care.

There are those that will present all kinds of rationale for their opinions to oppose health care for the poor for personal, political, or other reasons but I want to encourage people to consider what the scriptures say. There have been a lot of scriptures posted in this thread and I hope they will be considered.
We have Jesus as common ground,but yet Jesus doesn't force anything on, no one. It's assumed responsibility. As to say we pay what we can afford,right. God does ask for 10%, plus asks us as a family to help one another and ways heavy on our hearts to do more, but that is over and beyond your needs. He takes care of the needs! Jesus asks me to take care of my family. If don't, I'm negligent ,as well and am in sin. Nor can I open my house up for all whom needs a shower,food and place to sleep. By my own conscience I do what I can, but I'm not going to allow my Gov. to take from me and decide whomever they think deserves it more than I. I don't think my Gov. can love my family or neighbors better than me! Just like Jesus said about the women that putt two cent in as donation gave more than others that gave much, much more that didn't effect there way of life. I say you are heading down a slippery slop, my friend!

God doesn't give us more than we can handle!
 
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annrobert

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I have worked at many different kinds of jobs in my life some of them from daylight til dark and still had not enough to live on.
Other jobs at minimum wage for 30 hours a week , despite doctors telling me not to work.Roughly $600.00 a month,at the time.5 children,many of them requiring much medical care including myself.Thankfully this job in Canada.
Rent 400 at the time.car ins,gas,groceries,school supplies and much other expenses not included,I worked hard,at home and on the job,now just because we were poor does not mean we did not deserve medical.
Much of the medical I received was neccesary to my life,same with my children.
Another time I worked at a job starting at &8. and worked my way up to just over &13.
These kind of wages would never cover health care or insurance,not that I or my children would have qualified anyways.
I cannot work now due to my health.
I worked in the states at times in my life and did not get medical many times,because of not having money.I suffered from bladder infections untreated numerous times and nearly died from a kidney infection a few times since it spread.I had untreated severe tooth aches etc.I had an untreated broken rib.I had undiagnosed heart and lung conditions that required surgery that could have killed me.
No one should have to go without medical care, no one should have to.My parents traveled around Canada and the states for years and I stayed in the states the last time they came back to Canada.
Thankfully Canada has care.Was I ever surprised to find this out when I came to my home country as a young adult later with 3 children.
No one should have to live in pain,with untreated conditions etc.
Everyone deserves medical.
Regardless of where they live.
Just because a person is poor does not mean they are lazy.
 
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allhart

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I have worked at many different kinds of jobs in my life some of them from daylight til dark and still had not enough to live on.
Other jobs at minimum wage for 30 hours a week , despite doctors telling me not to work.Roughly $600.00 a month,at the time.5 children,many of them requiring much medical care including myself.Thankfully this job in Canada.
Rent 400 at the time.car ins,gas,groceries,school supplies and much other expenses not included,I worked hard,at home and on the job,now just because we were poor does not mean we did not deserve medical.
Much of the medical I received was neccesary to my life,same with my children.
Another time I worked at a job starting at &8. and worked my way up to just over &13.
These kind of wages would never cover health care or insurance,not that I or my children would have qualified anyways.
I cannot work now due to my health.
I worked in the states at times in my life and did not get medical many times,because of not having money.I suffered from bladder infections untreated numerous times and nearly died from a kidney infection a few times since it spread.I had untreated severe tooth aches etc.I had an untreated broken rib.I had undiagnosed heart and lung conditions that required surgery that could have killed me.
No one should have to go without medical care, no one should have to.My parents traveled around Canada and the states for years and I stayed in the states the last time they came back to Canada.
Thankfully Canada has care.Was I ever surprised to find this out when I came to my home country as a young adult later with 3 children.
No one should have to live in pain,with untreated conditions etc.
Everyone deserves medical.
Regardless of where they live.
Just because a person is poor does not mean they are lazy.
You are not owed anything in life. No one is promised a free bill of health or free from problems in life. We all have to work through them.(It's called life) Perseverance or work! You wouldn't want to work for free would you? You aren't obligated to pay an honest wage for someone else's honest service. Fair is fair, right is right and wrong is wrong. Two wrongs don't make it right,now does it? Nothing in this life is for free. Well, like another lady said on the forums,next society is going to expect the working class to foot the bill for direct burial of our dead.

I ask you "why" would people have babies one right after another. If they can't afford them or their health wasn't good enough to take care of them? People get all the fun, but deffer the responsibility's to the Local, State and Federal Governments. Some people expect everything to be perfect. I don't, but we have to think things through. Shame on them the first time , shame on you the second time around!
 
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annrobert

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Jesus asks for more than 10%.Jesus asks us to care for anyone in need ,see the good samaritan for who our neighbour is.Jesus asks us to care for more than our family and friends,even sinners do that.Even the 10% that some people give to churches ,very very little goes to help the poor and needy in our countries.However Jesus required more than 10%.Some people cannot help as much as others,some can help lots and some cannot.Everyone can do what they can.When some people own vacation homes and can afford trips to other countries and eating at lavish expensive restaurants routinely,own expensive vehicles,luxury hotel suites,private planes,loads of jewelry,liposuction etc,I am sure those people can give more than others.However many people who do not have all this can still contribute to the needy and a health care plan for the poor.They can do what they can, and some come up with many reasons not to.
 
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annrobert

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The issue of health care for all Americans will be influenced in part by the scriptures for some Christians. For some Christians the scriptures play as big of a role or in some cases a bigger role than personal advantages or any political ideology.

There have been a lot of scriptures posted on this thread that are directly related to how we Christians should view helping the poor and those less fortunate than our selves. I have great health care as I am a white collar worker and will gain nothing from a national health care plan but the scriptures are addressing the issue for helping others.

A few of the scriptures that have been posted are:




The scriptures above and the numerous others scriptres on this thread and in the Bible will influence some Christians on this debate.

Others will use political references such as national taxation to justify not helping the poor with health care and they will use their phrases such as “robbing the rich to give to the poor” and totally ignoring the scriptures that state:


They will also ignore other facts such as:

OUR taxes go for corporate welfare, subsidies to other Industries, etc.
The issue of taxes has been settled decades ago, we are going to pay taxes.
Collecting taxes is not theft it is a way for a nation to operate financially. “Even Jesus said “…GIVE unto Caesar what is Caesar’s….”

We are a “…. government of the people, by the people, for the people….”
If we believe that the scriptures want us to help the poor, and we have a voice in our government then we would want our government to help the poor and that includes health care.

There are those that will present all kinds of rationale for their opinions to oppose health care for the poor for personal, political, or other reasons but I want to encourage people to consider what the scriptures say. There have been a lot of scriptures posted in this thread and I hope they will be considered.

:amen:
thankyou
 
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allhart

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Jesus asks for more than 10%.Jesus asks us to care for anyone in need ,see the good samaritan for who our neighbour is.Jesus asks us to care for more than our family and friends,even sinners do that.Even the 10% that some people give to churches ,very very little goes to help the poor and needy in our countries.However Jesus required more than 10%.Some people cannot help as much as others,some can help lots and some cannot.Everyone can do what they can.When some people own vacation homes and can afford trips to other countries and eating at lavish expensive restaurants routinely,own expensive vehicles,luxury hotel suites,private planes,loads of jewelry,liposuction etc,I am sure those people can give more than others.However many people who do not have all this can still contribute to the needy and a health care plan for the poor.They can do what they can, and some come up with many reasons not to.
Don't demonize or judge people or envoy what God has given them. God works things out for the good. Everything bad or good without God is vain.If you are a child of God you own everything. He may not made you Stewart of the so,called wealth, but wealth can be your health and many other things.
 
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annrobert

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I ask you "why" would people have babies one right after another. If they can't afford them or their health wasn't good enough to take care of them? People get all the fun, but deffer the responsibility's to the Local, State and Federal Governments. Some people expect everything to be perfect. I don't, but we have to think things through. Shame on them the first time , shame on you the second time around!


I am sure my children and Jesus will really be loving spending eternity together.So it's all good.Jesus loves my children passionately and so do I and so many many people.
 
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keryakos

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Don't demonize or judge people or envoy what God has given them. God works things out for the good. Everything bad or good without God is vain.If you are a child of God you own everything. He may not made you Stewart of the so,called wealth, but wealth can be your health and many other things.


I feel sorry that you think that Ann is doing that she speaks the truth if every congressman had the love and concern that she had we would have a health care plan for all ,,I support her i support every word she has written
and i will say a prayer for you .
 
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allhart

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I am sure my children and Jesus will really be loving spending eternity together.So it's all good.Jesus loves my children passionately and so do I and so many many people.
Liberty is Responsibility's assumed. Just as you know with children. Their freedom was based on what they assume. Feeding themselves, diapers cooking and driving etc. And I am sure they are lovely children most kids are:thumbsup: Driving is assumed responsibility, it's a privileged to drive. Some might think it's their right,but in-society it's not!!!!!!
 
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annrobert

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Don't demonize or judge people or envoy what God has given them. God works things out for the good. Everything bad or good without God is vain.If you are a child of God you own everything. He may not made you Stewart of the so,called wealth, but wealth can be your health and many other things.

Jesus tells people to share.Whether people like it or not.
“ From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked”
Luke 12:48 (New International Version)


I quoted some of Jesus teachings to back up why I believe in equal health care for all.
 
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