Should we allow the Early Church Fathers to influence us?

[Armistead]

I prefer to keep going foreward, considering the reformation, crusades, witch trials, ect.

Just think how a person felt being boiled in a pot of water and hearing the crowd scream " Praise God"

 

[HuntingMan]

On that 30,000 issue, it is really misleading. It comes, IIRC, from the IRS list of groups that have filed as religious groups for tax purposes, and checked the box "protestant Christian" or some such. So, every yahoo that wants to set up a "ministry" for tax "purposes" gets included.

A better method of counting (and still pretty disturbing) is to go into a major city and look in their phone book under Churches and start counting the denominations.

EDIT: ah, I see that this point was made already.

Now, THAT is a resolution I can live with trying out to see how many different groups there might possibly be.

But Ive been to a LOT of different protestant churchs of every imaginable belief, and I have seen that MANY of them that go by different titles really believe pretty much the same things.
Ive been to nonBaptist churches that believe so closely to what many baptists believe, that they should have had 'Baptist' on the door sign.

Same with the charismatic churches Ive visited over the years. So many different titles but when it comes down to it Id say that the hundred or so I have visited could hardly be distinguished from one another if we look at the foundational points of doctrine.

So one group wont wear rings and the women dont wear dresses 24/7...they might believe EXACTLY the same thing as those who do...and Im personally not going to say these are two entirely different denoms based on pettiness like a dress code....

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Now, THAT is a resolution I can live with trying out to see how many different groups there might possibly be.

But Ive been to a LOT of different protestant churchs of every imaginable belief, and I have seen that MANY of them that go by different titles really believe pretty much the same things.
Ive been to nonBaptist churches that believe so closely to what many baptists believe, that they should have had 'Baptist' on the door sign.

Same with the charismatic churches Ive visited over the years. So many different titles but when it comes down to it Id say that the hundred or so I have visited could hardly be distinguished from one another if we look at the foundational points of doctrine.

So one group wont wear rings and the women dont wear dresses 24/7...they might believe EXACTLY the same thing as those who do...and Im personally not going to say these are two entirely different denoms based on pettiness like a dress code....

Pretty much all the Christian churches can overlap about 90%. But that does not mean they are the same.

If this were horse shoes I would agree. But we are talking eternity based on what we choose so I prefer to go with the winner. Have fun playing the wheel of fortune with your soul bro.

 

[Hentenza]

Exactly...


"I personally"

Once we become Christians the "I" is replaced with "we".

Look at the Prayer left for us to pray and it is not an "I" prayer but a "we" prayer.

'Our Father who art in heaven..."

You have stated the main reason we have close to 40,000 different denominations today. It is becasue so many people think like you with everything being "I".

Yes, resistance is futile!!

The number you cite for denominations is highly inflated and not indicative of a true number. While I don't deny that there are several thousand denominations, mainstream denominations are considerably less.

Also, something to think about, the RC was guilty of lusting after power for many years, just read the biography of Innocent III. It reminds me of the tower of Babel, we all read the same book but draw different interpretations. Different language?

God has certainly affected change in the "one, true church", don't you think?:o

 

[Vance]

Pretty much all the Christian churches can overlap about 90%. But that does not mean they are the same.

If this were horse shoes I would agree. But we are talking eternity based on what we choose so I prefer to go with the winner. Have fun playing the wheel of fortune with your soul bro.

Ah, but that would presume the concept that it is the church body you belong to, and not the faith you possess, that determines salvation.

 

[HuntingMan]

Pretty much all the Christian churches can overlap about 90%. But that does not mean they are the same.

If this were horse shoes I would agree. But we are talking eternity based on what we choose so I prefer to go with the winner. Have fun playing the wheel of fortune with your soul bro.

There are core points to the christian faith.
Those are the ONLY things that literally divide the church.
As I said, Im not deeming that church I spoke of earlier two different denoms because half didnt want to wear rings anymore.
If you want to exaggerate the details, thats up to you...but the fact is that if that group of people isnt teaching heresy, then they will be in glory together, and that is all that matters.
petty disagreements over rings and dress do not make different denominations regardless of what Ceasar has decided.

 

[HuntingMan]

ahh...Im hopping out of this thread folks.
This one seems to have only had one direction to go in and Im not interested in going there....

have a great day..

 

[JacktheCatholic]

So you believe ceasar decides what the church believes and where divisions might be?
Im not interested in Ceasars lists. Im interested in actual differences in foundational doctrinal viewpoints.
There are hardly 30,000 denominations when the core of the faith, what actually matters, is examined and the irrelevance of optional details are left out (such as observing days and eating meats).

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

I was speaking of today in the USA.

If we were discussing Rome and Caesar then things would be clear since there was only ONE christian church and that was the Catholic Church.

Denominations came about in the 16th century when any 'yahoo' could start his own church based on the bible and that person's individual authority. It started after the printing press was invented and then between three guys (Luther and Calvin and some other guy) the start of denominations started under what they called the "reformation". Since then we have had a pyramid effect that has grown into over 30,000 denomination and now 'non denominational'.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Ah, but that would presume the concept that it is the church body you belong to, and not the faith you possess, that determines salvation.

What determines IT is whether or not your name is in the book of life.

IT being eternity in heaven.

But since IT is not here yet for me then I think it best to try to follow the teachings that Jesus left us. There is one place to get those teachings uncorrupted and in there fullest and that IS the Catholic Church.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

God has certainly affected change in the "one, true church", don't you think?:o

Change in teaching? NO

 

[Vance]

What determines IT is whether or not your name is in the book of life.

IT being eternity in heaven.

But since IT is not here yet for me then I think it best to try to follow the teachings that Jesus left us. There is one place to get those teachings uncorrupted and in there fullest and that IS the Catholic Church.

And if I believed that to be a true statement, I would be Catholic as well.

Actually, I really wish I could believe that statement, it would make everything so much easier. But, I can't.

So, we can at least agree that there can be great value in the teachings of Augustine!

 

[Hentenza]

Change in teaching? NO

Is that the only part of my post that you could address? The RC did indeed change some of its teachings. Indulgences?

 

[HuntingMan]

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

I was speaking of today in the USA.

If we were discussing Rome and Caesar then things would be clear since there was only ONE christian church and that was the Catholic Church.

Denominations came about in the 16th century when any 'yahoo' could start his own church based on the bible and that person's individual authority. It started after the printing press was invented and then between three guys (Luther and Calvin and some other guy) the start of denominations started under what they called the "reformation". Since then we have had a pyramid effect that has grown into over 30,000 denomination and now 'non denominational'.

well, apparently that went over your head.
Hint...I was never speaking literally about Ceasar.
I think you and I are finished here. On ignore you go

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Is that the only part of my post that you could address? The RC did indeed change some of its teachings. Indulgences?

There are still indulgences but not the ones taught by wicked men that were priests in Luther's time. Like I said teachings of wicked men and not the Catholic Church.

The Pope at that time should have been diligent to his duties and cleaning up the evil in the church but he was too busy spending church money on parties. Jesus said there would be wolves in the church. Just happened to be quite a few in Luther's time.

Yes a Pope is not infallible only is he infallible ex cathedra or from the chair of Peter. That means when he speaks as the Authority of the church. Infallible in that he is guided by the spirit in matters of Faith and morals. Same as the men that wrote the gospels were inerrant in their writings because the Holy Spirit guided them but men that could be errant elsewhere.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

well, apparently that went over your head.
Hint...I was never speaking literally about Ceasar.
I think you and I are finished here. On ignore you go

Last resort of the weak minded I think.

 

[HuntingMan]

Here is an article I wrote on how we should read Genesis, based on the lessons taught by Augustine. I go through his teaching on Genesis and see what we can learn from him in our own reading of Scripture, especially of Genesis:

http://euangelion.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/how-should-we-read-genesis-a-lesson-from-augustine/

But, really, how much should we allow the teachings of the Early Church Fathers to influence our thinking today? Are their thoughts still relevant? Should we consider our accumulated wisdom of greater importance, or their closeness to "the source"?

I would appreciate both your thoughts on my article, and on my current questions. Thanks!

Id like for my last post in this thread to be on topic.

No, I dont put any faith in the words of uninspired men regardless of when they lived and wrote.
The ECFs have a lot of good teachings, and there is also teachings that I personally deem as unscriptural and even heresy in some of the teachings.

My POV....take it or leave it, but either way its not changing

 

[JacktheCatholic]

And if I believed that to be a true statement, I would be Catholic as well.

Actually, I really wish I could believe that statement, it would make everything so much easier. But, I can't.

So, we can at least agree that there can be great value in the teachings of Augustine!

Sure, Augustine is cool. What are you referring to. Or should I not ask???

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Id like for my last post in this thread to be on topic.

No, I dont put any faith in the words of uninspired men regardless of when they lived and wrote.
The ECFs have a lot of good teachings, and there is also teachings that I personally deem as unscriptural and even heresy in some of the teachings.

My POV....take it or leave it, but either way its not changing

The Pope is an inspired man when speaking ex cathedra...

 

[HuntingMan]

So, we can at least agree that there can be great value in the teachings of Augustine!

Pretty much all of the ECFs and Reformers had some 'value' in areas of their teachings, its those areas where they leave sound doctrine that are a concern.
Paul surely was not exaggerating when he said this....

Act 20:29-30 KJV For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. (30) Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

 

[Vance]

Sure, Augustine is cool. What are you referring to. Or should I not ask???

I am referring to the original post, in which I link to an article I wrote about Augustine's approach to Scripture, and Genesis in particular.