Should Christians totally abstain from alcohol?

[Oblio]

Just to clarify.

Are you trying to say that doing something that is pleasurable is wrong?

thanks

I think St. Paul answers this.

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
(1Co 6:12)

It is the passions that we fight against, they are the problem, not the pleasure.

 

[Quijote]

I think St. Paul answers this.



It is the passions that we fight against, they are the problem, not the pleasure.

where is the "tip my hat to you" smilie when one needs one...oh well, this one would do:

 

[Oblio]

To drive the point home, the most dangerous and deadly thing in the world was not the fruit of the tree, for it was not poison, but rather in disobeying God in capitualation to the passion of self gratification and pride.

 

[MadHermit]

Noah was the only man God considered worthy of saving during his time. What was the first thing he did when he got off the boat?

-Mad

 

[Cliff2]

Noah was the only man God considered worthy of saving during his time. What was the first thing he did when he got off the boat?

-Mad

Gen. 9:18-25

18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.


20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness. 24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
"Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers."

Does not seem to be a very good time for Noah and his children.

 

[ischus]

cliff2,

won't you also reply to my post (#564) ?

 

[JimfromOhio]

cliff2,

won't you also reply to my post (#564) ?

We are less than half way to 1,000th post

 

[prodromos]

Gen. 9:18-25...

Does not seem to be a very good time for Noah and his children.

After such a long time without, Noah obviously overdid it and had too much to drink. Again it was not the use of alcohol but the abuse of it which was the problem.

John

 

[Cliff2]

Matthew 27

32 Now as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. Him they compelled to bear His cross. 33 And when they had come to a place called Golgotha, that is to say, Place of a Skull, 34 they gave Him sour[e] wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink. (NKJV) (Cliff2)

Sorry, I am having a hard time interpreting your posts. Are you being serious here? Are we saying the same thing perhaps?

I said that Jesus was offered wine two times. One here (which you quoted), where he tastes and then rejects it. Another while on the cross, where he receives it.

Where is the misunderstanding?

I will have to check that one out and see if Jesus was offered wine twice.

 

[SixClowns]

If "excess" is the only restriction, can we Christians have a little bit of cocaine? A little bit of crack?

Cocaine is an illegal narcotic, if drinking was illegal that it wouldn't be right either. A sin.... no.

 

[Redneck Crow]

Cocaine is an illegal narcotic, if drinking was illegal that it wouldn't be right either. A sin.... no.

Not cracking on you, SixClowns, just continuing the discussion.

The illegal use of cocaine is indeed wrong. But the substance itself is not evil--it is merely a substance. "Things" are just things. Cocaine can be used legally, medically, and responsibly to treat pain.

Paul points out that from a Christian standpoint that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Is it unprofitable to have a beer after mowing the lawn on a hot day? If you are an alcoholic, the answer is no, but if you are not, a beer doesn't harm you and can be mighty refreshing.

I think far more harm is done worrying others about a beer or a glass of wine that they take which is legal for them to consume, causes no harm to them or others, and is not used abusively. Being a Christian drunk or any other kind of drunk is unprofitable, not only to one's self but to one's family and society as a whole. But a little wine hurts no one except for an alcoholic, who can't stop at a little, or a person who might have a medical condition where wine would interact with a medication they were taking or worsen the condition itself.

Personally, I can think of a few Christians I know who would be vastly improved by the addition of a little wine. Perhaps they might even get over themselves and past obsessing over such small things.

 

[Cliff2]

Not cracking on you, SixClowns, just continuing the discussion.

The illegal use of cocaine is indeed wrong. But the substance itself is not evil--it is merely a substance. "Things" are just things. Cocaine can be used legally, medically, and responsibly to treat pain.

Paul points out that from a Christian standpoint that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Is it unprofitable to have a beer after mowing the lawn on a hot day? If you are an alcoholic, the answer is no, but if you are not, a beer doesn't harm you and can be mighty refreshing.

I think far more harm is done worrying others about a beer or a glass of wine that they take which is legal for them to consume, causes no harm to them or others, and is not used abusively. Being a Christian drunk or any other kind of drunk is unprofitable, not only to one's self but to one's family and society as a whole. But a little wine hurts no one except for an alcoholic, who can't stop at a little, or a person who might have a medical condition where wine would interact with a medication they were taking or worsen the condition itself.

Personally, I can think of a few Christians I know who would be vastly improved by the addition of a little wine. Perhaps they might even get over themselves and past obsessing over such small things.

If you looked at my link concerning road accidents you may change your mind.

One in seven people that have a drink becomes an alcoholic. A hopeless drunk.

Why take that chance when you can get all the benifits and much more from a glass of pure grape juice.

 

[Oblio]

One in seven people that have a drink becomes an alcoholic.

You keep throwing around this statistic without any details so it is near meaningless.

Let's say that seven responsible drinkers take a drink, will one of them become an alcoholic ? I doubt it, because they have already established that they are not alcoholics by their a priori behavior.

We have also established that those with a predeliction towards addiction or family history of such should not drink or at least be wary of the dangers.

What about social and economic class ? Age ?

What about their faith and how their relationship with Christ helps counter addictions ?


You might as well say that Mother's milk leads to heroin.

 

[Melethiel]

If you looked at my link concerning road accidents you may change your mind.

One in seven people that have a drink becomes an alcoholic. A hopeless drunk.

Why take that chance when you can get all the benifits and much more from a glass of pure grape juice.

Is the glass half full or half empty? 6/7 people who drink DON'T become alcoholics.

 

[Redneck Crow]

If you looked at my link concerning road accidents you may change your mind.

One in seven people that have a drink becomes an alcoholic. A hopeless drunk.

Why take that chance when you can get all the benifits and much more from a glass of pure grape juice.

I have known too many alcoholics to ever believe that there exists such a thing as a "hopeless drunk."

I know that drunk driving can cause accidents, and people should not drink and drive.

But I do drink--I might drink a six pack of beer every couple of months. And I see no reason for people to totally refrain from drinking alcohol who do not have a drinking problem, as I see no reason for people who maintain a healthy weight to abstain from hamburgers. As with so many other things in life, be it spending, watching television, goofing around on the computer, eating, sports, etc, there will be people who cannot control themselves.

My father reared his kids with a healthy attitude toward alcohol. We saw him drink a beer or two with his friends on occasion, we did not see him get drunk or turn into an instant idiot when alcohol was added. In short, he taught us responsiblity and to despise drunken behavior.

Drink grape juice if you wish. You have that choice. I think that it's nasty, but that's just me. And I will continue to have the occasional glass of lambrusco with my spaghetti and enjoy it sans guilt.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I would not want some of the legalists to become my spiritual leaders because they will probably be dictators.

 

[praying]

Ahh the debate over Guiness vs O'Doul's continues.

sort of like taste great, less filling.

 

[Cliff2]

I have known too many alcoholics to ever believe that there exists such a thing as a "hopeless drunk."

I know that drunk driving can cause accidents, and people should not drink and drive.

But I do drink--I might drink a six pack of beer every couple of months. And I see no reason for people to totally refrain from drinking alcohol who do not have a drinking problem, as I see no reason for people who maintain a healthy weight to abstain from hamburgers. As with so many other things in life, be it spending, watching television, goofing around on the computer, eating, sports, etc, there will be people who cannot control themselves.

My father reared his kids with a healthy attitude toward alcohol. We saw him drink a beer or two with his friends on occasion, we did not see him get drunk or turn into an instant idiot when alcohol was added. In short, he taught us responsiblity and to despise drunken behavior.

Drink grape juice if you wish. You have that choice. I think that it's nasty, but that's just me. And I will continue to have the occasional glass of lambrusco with my spaghetti and enjoy it sans guilt.

As long as there is life there is hope.

For some people as long as there is alcohol they will drink.

The only hope for an alcoholic is savibg power of Jesus Christ.

Without that they become hopleless along with many others that are addicted to many things that this world offers as an alternative to eternal life.

 

[JimfromOhio]

If we are going to be legalist about alcohol. We might as well get rid of any amusement parks and similar activities that provides thrills.

Proverbs 21:17
You're addicted to thrills? What an empty life! The pursuit of pleasure is never satisfied.

 

[SixClowns]

Not cracking on you, SixClowns, just continuing the discussion.

The illegal use of cocaine is indeed wrong. But the substance itself is not evil--it is merely a substance. "Things" are just things. Cocaine can be used legally, medically, and responsibly to treat pain.

Paul points out that from a Christian standpoint that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Is it unprofitable to have a beer after mowing the lawn on a hot day? If you are an alcoholic, the answer is no, but if you are not, a beer doesn't harm you and can be mighty refreshing.

I think far more harm is done worrying others about a beer or a glass of wine that they take which is legal for them to consume, causes no harm to them or others, and is not used abusively. Being a Christian drunk or any other kind of drunk is unprofitable, not only to one's self but to one's family and society as a whole. But a little wine hurts no one except for an alcoholic, who can't stop at a little, or a person who might have a medical condition where wine would interact with a medication they were taking or worsen the condition itself.

Personally, I can think of a few Christians I know who would be vastly improved by the addition of a little wine. Perhaps they might even get over themselves and past obsessing over such small things.

I spent 3 years in the Carib. Sea chasing drug boats, as far as crime goes cocaine and marijuana is on of my sticky subjects.