SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

[Sophia7]

That is confusing for some people but we have some good examples for who is not so confused by it in my signature line. Where all those Sunday keeping groups agree with the Sabbath keeping groups that the TEN are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12.

The law such that "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- it is the law that defines what sin IS - as Rom 3:19 tells us, as 1 John 3:4 tells us and as Romans 6 and James 2 also inform us. So not too surprising that almost all Christian denominations on planet earth align at this point.

No wonder since in Eph 6:2 the TEN are specifically singled out as having "honor your father and mother" as "The first commandment with a promise" -- applicable to all mankind in that New Covenant.

No wonder since in Jeremiah's day they knew about the Deut 5:22 fact that "God spoke these TEN words from the cloud to the people and ADDED NO more". Meaning that when Jeremiah says God writes His LAW on the heart and mind under the NEW Covenant - his readers had to be dead sure that this included the TEN at the very minimum, no matter what else it also included.

But you still haven't provided evidence that Scripture establishes a category of "the moral law."

 

[Sophia7]

Wait, there are non-Trinitarian Adventists?

Yes. There were historically many non-Trinitarians among the Adventist founders, and there are still many Adventists who hold to those historic beliefs. There are among Adventists today many modalists and, on the other end of the spectrum, many tri-theists who view God as three different "beings" united in purpose, rather than three persons of one being--one by nature versus united in purpose, as in a family or marriage type of relationship, as often described by Adventists. There are also many Adventists today who view the Holy Spirit not as a person but as an impersonal force. There is still much confusion in Adventism because of their early history and because of the writings of Ellen White, which did not clear up the confusion. And the Seventh-day Adventist Church allows all of those with unorthodox views on the nature of God to remain in church membership.

 

[tall73]

Wait, there are non-Trinitarian Adventists?

Yes. Here are some conversations from the Traditional Adventist section on CF.

What Did Ellen White Say About The Trinity

Ellen White on the Trinity Doctrine Did Ellen White believe in the trinity? Not one of the Adventist pioneers believed in the trinity. Her husband James White denounced the trinity as “unscriptural”. Why did Ellen White never correct her husband if she was a trinitarian? All of the pioneers...

www.christianforums.com

Sister White Responds to Kellogs Trinitarian Beliefs

www.christianforums.com

Are the SDAs

Christian. Do the believe in the Trinity and Divinity of Jesus Christ?

www.christianforums.com

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. There were historically many non-Trinitarians among the Adventist founders, and there are still many Adventists who hold to those historic beliefs. There are among Adventists today many modalists and, on the other end of the spectrum, many tri-theists who view God as three different "beings" united in purpose, rather than three persons of one being--one by nature versus united in purpose, as in a family or marriage type of relationship, as often described by Adventists. There are also many Adventists today who view the Holy Spirit not as a person but as an impersonal force. There is still much confusion in Adventism because of their early history and because of the writings of Ellen White, which did not clear up the confusion.

And the Seventh-day Adventist Church allows all of those with unorthodox views on the nature of God to remain in church membership.

And that would be the key I think, since most groups are going to have some amount of variation amongst those sitting in the pews. But if church membership allows a person to hold a position of power or authority within the group and hold those views you described, that's very interesting

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. Here are some conversations from the Traditional Adventist section on CF.

What Did Ellen White Say About The Trinity

Ellen White on the Trinity Doctrine Did Ellen White believe in the trinity? Not one of the Adventist pioneers believed in the trinity. Her husband James White denounced the trinity as “unscriptural”. Why did Ellen White never correct her husband if she was a trinitarian? All of the pioneers...

www.christianforums.com

Sister White Responds to Kellogs Trinitarian Beliefs

www.christianforums.com

Are the SDAs

Christian. Do the believe in the Trinity and Divinity of Jesus Christ?

www.christianforums.com

Very interesting, thanks for the input

 

[tall73]

tall73 said:
Yes, Bob, and it trended, as her public statements did, from non-Trinitarian to Trinitarian.

That's a nice story - but it not how it worked in the case of the history of James White.

His change came about before the very strong trinitarian statements made by Ellen White.

Actually, I think James White did change, but I don't think he ever went so far as a Trinitarian view. But he did come to speak of the Son as equal with God.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald | November 29, 1877 | Adventist Digital Library

adventistdigitallibrary.org

Here he is in 1877 still speaking against the Trinity.

The reason why it is not robbery for the Son to be equal with the Father is the fact that he is equal. If the Son is not equal with theFather, then it is robbery for him to rank himself with the Father. The inexplicable trinity that makes the godhead three in one and one in three, is bad enough ; but that ultra Unitarianism that makes Christ inferior to the Father is worse.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It doesn't logically follow that when a lot of people think someone is wrong, that person must then be from God.

Right on --- it is a logical fallacy to say someone is wrong and think that makes you right.

Master List of Logical Fallacies

8 logical fallacies that are hard to spot

From "if-by-whiskey" to the McNamara fallacy, being able to spot logical missteps is an invaluable skill.

bigthink.com

 

[Daniel Marsh]

In my feeble efforts over the years to ascertain the theological rationale regarding the Law in the SDA the only thing I can come up with is that they, on one hand, display intense devotion in obeying all of God's commandments, but on the other hand, define those commands as actually being only the Ten Commandments of which the fourth Commandment is, by far and away, preeminent. That poses some curious contradictions, from my perspective. In actual practice, the SDA has redefined the dietary commandments of the Old Testament to conform to their conception of a vegetarian diet, although there is not the slightest hint of such a thing in the Ten Commandments.

613-10=603 laws of Torah they don't keep. So, they only try to keep 0.0163132137% of God's Laws. lol

 

[BobRyan]

Please quote the Scripture that states what "the moral law of God" is.

That is confusing for some people but we have some good examples for who is not so confused by it in my signature line. Where all those Sunday keeping groups agree with the Sabbath keeping groups that the TEN are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12.

The law such that "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 -- it is the law that defines what sin IS - as Rom 3:19 tells us, as 1 John 3:4 tells us and as Romans 6 and James 2 also inform us. So not too surprising that almost all Christian denominations on planet earth align at this point.

No wonder since in Eph 6:2 the TEN are specifically singled out as having "honor your father and mother" as "The first commandment with a promise" -- applicable to all mankind in that New Covenant.

No wonder since in Jeremiah's day they knew about the Deut 5:22 fact that "God spoke these TEN words from the cloud to the people and ADDED NO more". Meaning that when Jeremiah says God writes His LAW on the heart and mind under the NEW Covenant - his readers had to be dead sure that this included the TEN at the very minimum, no matter what else it also included.

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today as included in the moral law of God (under the NEW Covenant) --
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

But you still haven't provided evidence that Scripture establishes a category of "the moral law."

1. I do that in the details of the comments above. And you are not responding to those details from what I have seen so far.
2. I am not saying you do not have free will to ignore all that you wish to ignore. but it is "instructive" to the unbiased objective readers that BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to this one obvious detail about the TEN and the moral law of God.

 

[Sophia7]

613-10=603 laws of Torah they don't keep. So, they only try to keep 0.0163132137% of God's Laws. lol

Plus the dietary commandments of Lev. 11. Plus prohibitions against alcohol, coffee, jewelry, dancing, etc., which are not even biblical commandments. Plus meat eating is highly discouraged and considered by some Adventists (including Ellen White) detrimental to a person's spiritual condition.

 

[BobRyan]

And Adventists historians have noted Ellen White's view developed into a Trinitarian one.

The idea that united Methodists like Ellen gradually adopted the idea of the triune Godhead over time in the mid-1800's is a pretty hard sell.

You are welcome to carry that flag all day long -- but since we both agree that Ellen White promoted strong "one God in three persons" statements like "The Holy Spirit is the third PERSON of the Godhead" -- I don't see that you get very far.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, it already is off the ground. People around the world have noted Ellen White's non-Trinitarian statements

People around the world have already noted the clear trinitarian statements in the SDA fundamental beliefs.
People around the world have already noted that Methodists - even in Ellen White's day were trinitarian
People around the world have already noted that Ellen White was raised as a Methodist
People around the world (including you) have noticed Ellen White's pro-trinitarian "one God in three persons" statements.

Your claim to have bad news based on inference and inuendo is noted and of course I leave you to all that stuff since I actually do have the materials and the facts on this topic that you seem to be struggling with.

You have free will and can choose to ignore whatever you wish. It is fine with me. I happy to leave that to you.

" Your ideas of the two subjects you mention do not harmonize with the light which God has given me. The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery; it is not clearly revealed,and you will never be able to explain it to others, because the Lord has not revealed it to you. You may gather together scriptures and put your construction upon them, but the application is not correct. The expositions by which you sustain your position are not sound. You may lead some to accept your explanations, but you do them no good, nor are they, through accepting your views, enabled to do others good. 7LtMs, Lt 7, 1891, par. 13

It is not essential for you to know and be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, “the Spirit of truth, which the Father shall send in my name.” [John 14:26.] “I will pray the Father, and he shall send you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” [Verses 16, 17.] This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter.

There are many mysteries which I do not seek to understand or to explain; they are too high for me, and too high for you. On some of these points, silence is golden.

Now Bob, I think we can put to rest that the Adventist church was a bastion of Trinitarian thought throughout its history. But we also can see Ellen White was not a Trinitarian schoalar from her Methodist days.

Sadly you are mistaken ... again. Your own posts refute your claims because they show that the infinite God is not confined to your narrow boxes.
And we still have "the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the godhead"

=========== Statements you probably never share with those who read your posts...

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity—The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.—Manuscript 130, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.). {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God.... {Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, 10:37. (1897). {Ev 617.2}


In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}

=====================================

"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 -- no matter how much you may object to it in the statements of Ellen White.

 

[BobRyan]

Plus the dietary commandments of Lev. 11. Plus prohibitions against alcohol, coffee, jewelry, dancing, etc., which are not even biblical commandments.

The idea that LSD, cocaine, marijuanna should not be abstained from - because the Bible does not name them specifically is hard to take seriously given what we do know of scripture... in 1 Cor 6 and 1 Cor 3 regarding the Body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

Since you quoted Deut.5:22, which version of the ten commandments was spoken by God and written in stone?

Ex 20 is pretty clear about what it is -- I assume you have read it.

Deut 5 says it is what God spoke to Israel directly from the cloud - which was recorded in Ex 20 as anyone who reads that chapter can see.

The Exodus version or this version, also from Deut. 5?

Deut 5 says it is the words of Ex 20 spoken by God directly to Israel from the top of the mountain in the cloud. How is that even a little bit confusing??

Deut 5
words the Lord spoke to your whole assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, from the cloud, and from the thick darkness, with a great voice, and He added nothing more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me. 23 And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you approached me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders. 24 You said, ‘Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; we have seen today that God speaks with mankind, yet he lives. 25 Now then, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any longer, then we will die! 26 For who is there of humanity who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27 Go near and listen to everything that the Lord our God says; then speak to us everything that the Lord our God speaks to you, and we will listen and do it.’

Refers explicitly to Israel's response to those words in Ex 20.
18 And all the people were watching and hearing the thunder and the lightning flashes, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it all, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but do not have God speak to us, or we will die!”

How is this even a little bit confusing???

 

[BobRyan]

I do not accept your interpretation of the laws from the Old Testament.

You stated previously that it has nothing to do with "my interpretation" but rather the words that we can all read in Ex 20 -- are what you reject.

Are you changing your mind now????

 

[BobRyan]

Wait, there are non-Trinitarian Adventists?

Some tiny group ... that rejects SDA Fundamental Beliefs do exist.

no wait! you never heard of any Christian denomination where some tiny group within it differs on at least something?

Seriously??

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, I think James White did change, but I don't think he ever went so far as a Trinitarian view.

He stated that he had no difference left with the Trinitarian view of One God in Three Persons.

 

[tall73]

He stated that he had no difference left with the Trinitarian view of One God in Three Persons.

Please post the quote with a link.

 

[tall73]

The idea that united Methodists like Ellen gradually adopted the idea of the triune Godhead over time in the mid-1800's is a pretty hard sell.

You are welcome to carry that flag all day long -- but since we both agree that Ellen White promoted strong "one God in three persons" statements like "The Holy Spirit is the third PERSON of the Godhead" -- I don't see that you get very far.

Yes Bob, I mentioned she said that. And so did the historian. She started saying such things in 1893. But we already have her on record with quite a different statement with the guy who thought the Holy Spirit was the angel Gabriel, two years earlier.

 

[tall73]

People around the world have already noted the clear trinitarian statements in the SDA fundamental beliefs.
People around the world have already noted that Methodists - even in Ellen White's day were trinitarian
People around the world have already noted that Ellen White was raised as a Methodist
People around the world (including you) have noticed Ellen White's pro-trinitarian "one God in three persons" statements.

Your claim to have bad news based on inference and inuendo is noted and of course I leave you to all that stuff since I actually do have the materials and the facts on this topic that you seem to be struggling with.

You have free will and can choose to ignore whatever you wish. It is fine with me. I happy to leave that to you.



Sadly you are mistaken ... again. Your own posts refute your claims because they show that the infinite God is not confined to your narrow boxes.

And we still have "the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the godhead"

We get it Bob, you want to post her later statements, and ignore her earlier ones.

The Adventist historian did not ignore the earlier ones.

=========== Statements you probably never share with those who read your posts...

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity—The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.—Manuscript 130, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.). {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God.... {Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, 10:37. (1897). {Ev 617.2}


In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}

Of course I already shared the historical document indicating these statements, and discussing them in detail. And it also noted she didn't start making them until 1843, and she gradually developed her view of the Trinity.

I also referred to the trio, the dignitaries, and the personality of the Spirit in my earlier statements.

But what you want to ignore is what even the Adventist historians can't ignore, which is her earlier statements.

=====================================

"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 -- no matter how much you may object to it in the statements of Ellen White.

Bob, those reading will know I already mentioned she made such statements. But she also made non-trinitarian statements in her early writings.

I notice you didn't discuss those, again.

You ignore such things as Christ had been "taken into" the special counsel of God. Christ's power and authority were the same as that of "God Himself, The angels have to acquaint the pre-incarnate Son of God with what is going on. Jesus has to be endowed with unlimited power, etc.

You ignore when it says the Son is the only being who can enter the counsels of God, where you are missing a being.

Bob, this is not describing the Trinity. And you can post all the later statements you want. Because you, and I , and the Adventist historians agree her later statements were more Trinitarian.

But that won't solve the problem of her earlier statements being non-Trinitarian.