scriptures ignored by Trinitarians.

[2ducklow]

To add further to BlackSabb's insightful post is this verse in 1Tim. 2:5,6. Translations vary but the gist should be the same. Jesus offered a corresponding sacrifice, his life for what Adam lost so that we can all get our lives back in harmony with God. He acts as a Mediator between us and God. If Jesus is God then the writer of this verse would of known that and would of structured the verse accordingly. Further it calls into question other things that happened in Jesus life especially the temptations. How could Satan tempt God exactly? Later Jesus dying as he was could not be God because God is immortal, and immortals don't die unless you except Greek folk stories then you accept the only Greek god to die was Pan the god of music. Which was the loophole used by the early Church to somehow get around the headache they had as to how their immortal god Jesus could actually die, and then be resurrected by himself or another part of himself. The Bible refuses to support this idea yet if it were true the Bible writers especially in the NT would of made it crystal clear rather than the arguments which have rumbled on for around a couple of thousand years up to now.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Any trinitarians wanna take a shot at explaining 1 tim 2.5-6? Now's your chance.

 

[Warrior Poet]

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Any trinitarians wanna take a shot at explaining 1 tim 2.5-6? Now's your chance.

Of the many translation on this quote the author writes "the man Christ Jesus" as if Christ Jesus ( minus "the man") is something else entirely.

Like Galations 1:12. Whats your take on that?

Warrior Poet

 

[hybrid]

what's more so fitting and elegant a doctrine that the mediator between god and man is essentially both!!!!

 

[k2svpete]

Of the many translation on this quote the author writes "the man Christ Jesus" as if Christ Jesus ( minus "the man") is something else entirely.

Oh rubbish. It is an emphasis. Given that Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind now, it means that he is still a man. Not God.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Oh rubbish. It is an emphasis. Given that Jesus is the mediator between God and mankind now, it means that he is still a man. Not God.

Then who/what/where is "the Christ", mentioned throughout the Bible, before Jesus was born?

Warrior Poet

 

[2ducklow]

Of the many translation on this quote the author writes "the man Christ Jesus" as if Christ Jesus ( minus "the man") is something else entirely.

YOu very cleverly avoided explaining how Jesus can be god now since the bible calls him a man after his death. saying Jesus is god makes 2 gods out of this scripture. for it means that there is one god between god and man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

so if Jesus is god then the verse means

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, one god also between God and men, himself man, Christ god,


Is the mediator between god and man a man or is he god? which is it? and what kind of god is Jesus? YHWH? the omnipresent spirit? or is he a human god with human powers? saying Jesus is god means nothing, you have to say what kind of god he is. Say Jesus is the omnipresnt spirit who is YHWH.
that would make 1 tim 2.5 say this
\
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one YHWH, one YHWH also between YHWH and men, himself man, Christ YHWH,

Saying JEsus is YHWH makes 1 tim 2.5 extremly goofy.

If the god that Jesus supposedly is isn't YHWH which god is he?

Like Galations 1:12. Whats your take on that?

Warrior Poet

(Rotherham) Galatians 1:12 For neither, from man, did I accept it, nor was taught [it],--but through a revealing of Jesus Christ.

God revealed Jesus christ to Paul.

(Rotherham) Romans 16:25 Now, unto him who hath power to establish you, according to my glad-message--even the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of a sacred secret, in age-past times kept silent,

(Rotherham) Romans 16:26 But now made manifest, and through means of prophetic scriptures, according to the command of the age-abiding God, for obedience of faith unto all the nations made known,

THe revealing of Jesus christ to Paul came from god through the scriptures as it does to all of us. this sacred secret of Jesus christ was kept secret in age-past times because if the devil had known that christ would be in all of us he never would have crucified the Lord of glory.

[SIZE=+0](Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak, God's, wisdom, in a sacred secret, that hidden [wisdom], which God marked out beforehand, before the ages, for our glory,-- [/SIZE]

(Rotherham) 1 Corinthians 2:8 Which, none of the rulers of this age had come to know, for, had they known, not, in that case, the Lord of the glory, would they have crucified!

 

[k2svpete]

Then who/what/where is "the Christ", mentioned throughout the Bible, before Jesus was born?

Warrior Poet

You are familiar with prophecy, yes?

Remember also that God is referred to as the messiah in the OT, the redeemer.

When Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and made God's ambassador, he also took on some of the roles through his fulfillment of scripture.

 

[Catherineanne]

John 20:31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

OK, I see it, and I am not ignoring it. Our Lord is indeed the Christ, the Son of God. What is your point?

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Ditto. Seen, noted and accepted. The Lord prays that those whom the Father has given to him may be one, as he and the Father are one. Good, excellent.

And your point is?

Seldom do trinitarians deal with the fact that Jesus and the father are one the same way we the church are one, because it destroys their belief that "I and my father are one" means Jesus and the father are god.

Except now we are not in Scripture, but interpretation. Disagreeing with the one is not the same as disagreeing with the other. For one thing, the Scripture does not say 'church' but 'they' and 'those whom you have given me'. You have interpeted that to mean church.

Meanwhile, in spite of your fears, my faith is untouched, in spite of reading verses that no Trinitarian has read before. Funny that.

anyboy else got some scriptures they feel trinitarians will not deal with? please add them. .

What is this, open season?

 

[Catherineanne]

Jesus didn't exist till he was born.

Jesus did not exist on earth as a human being until he was born, because humans are constrained in time, and exist in time. But he most certainly existed in eternity from the Beginning, as the Word of God.

God is not contained within time. He is eternal, and as such has no before or after. He is the Eternal.

You can't have an eternal God, bits of which were always there, but an additional bit got added on when Christ was born. That makes no sense.

 

[Catherineanne]

Jesus is the last adam, the only begotten (literally) son of God, He is man indwelt by God, not both man and god. He is the new creation, the last adam, the glorified son of man, the head of the body of Christ, who sits at the right hand of god, and whose father is the one and only true god, god the father (john 17.3, 1 cor, 8.6.)

So, you present interpretation, and then tack on a couple of verse references, in the hope that they will bear witness to what you say?

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life; that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (Spoken by the Lord, quoted by John.)

I Cor 8:6
Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (Written by Paul.)

So, let us see how much of your interpretation is found in those verses:

Jesus is the last adam, the only begotten (literally) son of God, He is man indwelt by God, not both man and god. He is the new creation, the last adam, the glorified son of man, the head of the body of Christ, who sits at the right hand of god, and whose father is the one and only true god, god the father.

None of it. It is all opinion, and none of it Scripture; well, not these Scriptures, anyway, and they are the ones you chose.

Would you believe it?

 

[Catherineanne]

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Any trinitarians wanna take a shot at explaining 1 tim 2.5-6? Now's your chance.

What is it that makes you think that the Bible is intended to be hacked to bits, and its verses used in a shooting gallery?

What makes you think that one verse can prove or disprove another? Or that the verses you choose need to be explained, or else? What point would God have in making a Bible which is, in effect, a game of poker?

 

[2ducklow]

dWhat is it that makes you think that the Bible is intended to be hacked to bits, and its verses used in a shooting gallery?

What makes you think that one verse can prove or disprove another? Or that the verses you choose need to be explained, or else? What point would God have in making a Bible which is, in effect, a game of poker?

Is this your interrpretation of 1 tim. 2.5-6?

 

[2ducklow]

Originally Posted by 2ducklow

John 20:31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
​

OK, I see it, and I am not ignoring it. Our Lord is indeed the Christ, the Son of God. What is your point?

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
​

Ditto. Seen, noted and accepted. The Lord prays that those whom the Father has given to him may be one, as he and the Father are one. Good, excellent.

And your point is?

Seldom do trinitarians deal with the fact that Jesus and the father are one the same way we the church are one, because it destroys their belief that "I and my father are one" means Jesus and the father are god.
​

Except now we are not in Scripture, but interpretation. Disagreeing with the one is not the same as disagreeing with the other. For one thing, the Scripture does not say 'church' but 'they' and 'those whom you have given me'. You have interpeted that to mean church.

Meanwhile, in spite of your fears, my faith is untouched, in spite of reading verses that no Trinitarian has read before. Funny that.

anyboy else got some scriptures they feel trinitarians will not deal with? please add them. .
​

What is this, open season?

kinda reminds me of the great marianas turkey shoot in the pacific in ww2.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...arianas+turkey+shoot&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


John 20:31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.


therefore john 1 and john 20.28 were written to show that Jesus is the christ and the son of god, not to show that Jesus is god.

these verses show, according to John/god's own words, that Jesus is the christ the son of god.

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not. There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light. There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

 

[2ducklow]

Originally Posted by 2ducklow

Jesus is the last adam, the only begotten (literally) son of God, He is man indwelt by God, not both man and god. He is the new creation, the last adam, the glorified son of man, the head of the body of Christ, who sits at the right hand of god, and whose father is the one and only true god, god the father (john 17.3, 1 cor, 8.6.)
​

So, you present interpretation, and then tack on a couple of verse references, in the hope that they will bear witness to what you say?

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life; that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (Spoken by the Lord, quoted by John.)

I Cor 8:6
Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (Written by Paul.)

So, let us see how much of your interpretation is found in those verses:

Jesus is the last adam, the only begotten (literally) son of God, He is man indwelt by God, not both man and god. He is the new creation, the last adam, the glorified son of man, the head of the body of Christ, who sits at the right hand of god, and whose father is the one and only true god, god the father.

None of it. It is all opinion, and none of it Scripture; well, not these Scriptures, anyway, and they are the ones you chose.

Would you believe it?

Jesus is the head of the body of christ =

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Jesus is the last adam =

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Jesus is the glorified son of man =

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

Jesus sits at the right hand of god =

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Jesus is the beginning of the new creation of god

Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Jesus is the only begotten son of god =

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[2ducklow]

denuked

 

[MattLangley]

Yeah, no it's not obvious. The trinity affirms Jesus as the Son of God, so that verse has no bearing on the doctrine of the trinity.

True, though just because a doctrine affirms a contradiction doesn't make it any less of a doctrine. If Jesus is described as the "Son of God" how can he then be God. In all of our known reality for defining that linkage there is no situation in which that is not a contradiction, hence it cannot confirm something it could never mean.

 

[Catherineanne]

Is this your interrpretation of 1 tim. 2.5-6?

Who says it must be interpreted? Why not let the words speak for themselves.

 

[Catherineanne]

therefore john 1 and john 20.28 were written to show that Jesus is the christ and the son of god, not to show that Jesus is god.

these verses show, according to John/god's own words, that Jesus is the christ the son of god.

To a Christian, 'Son of God' and 'God' are synonymous, and both are used of Christ. Therefore to use one to disprove the other does not work.

It is like using verses saying 'Christ Jesus' to disprove those saying 'Jesus Christ'. They are different ways of denoting the same person.

I really would not waste my time, therefore, if I were you.

 

[2ducklow]

Who says it must be interpreted? Why not let the words speak for themselves.

2
1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;



there is one mediator between god and man, the MAN CHRIST JESUS.


does man and god mean the same thing to christians just as son of god and god mean the same thing, that is according to you?

 

[2ducklow]

To a Christian, 'Son of God' and 'God' are synonymous, and both are used of Christ. Therefore to use one to disprove the other does not work.

It is like using verses saying 'Christ Jesus' to disprove those saying 'Jesus Christ'. They are different ways of denoting the same person.

I really would not waste my time, therefore, if I were you.

so is son of Mary synonymous with Mary?