Science (observations in nature) - supports creation not evolution. So does the Bible

BobRyan

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We can agree science does not have a theistic goal
when it comes to things where they are not just guessing that has to be true. For example a chemical reaction where NaCl is a precipitant. Both Christians and atheists do that same experiment and it comes out with the same "observation in nature" as to what happens.

Sadly - not all of so-called "science" is like that.
In this culture the OP questions evolution based on a scientific model essentially saying why don't we still see it happen?
Nothing in science says that gravity won't have any affect in nature - if you are wanting to observe its effects in a real science experiment.
That answer can be satisfied very easily through a theistic model and biblical one that shows us God ceased creating.
God has no interest in supernaturally trying to make a anti-creation model work no matter how many miracles it takes to get it to work -- just so the Bible can be wrong (like belief in evolutionism's doctrine on origins contradicts the text of scripture). That is not logical
Regardless how you accept evolution using a theistic model of evolution adds a controlling force and fixes your problem with evolution.
I agree that all the anti-Bible proposals can be "fixed by God" to work no matter how irrational a Stork is as a the mechanism for delivering babies etc. He is powerful enough to make illogical stories appear true or even work out as per the story just so the Bible can be wrong... But He is not in that business. It is not logical.
 
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BobRyan

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Even to this day, the word "all" can be used very loosely. Marine animals such as blue whales would be able to survive, and they wouldn't be able to be put in the ark
21 So all creatures that moved on the earth perished: birds, livestock, animals, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

I guess if we hold the Bible at a sufficient distance and ignore enough of the details we can get some use out of that whale idea.
 
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Cis.jd

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21 So all creatures that moved on the earth perished: birds, livestock, animals, and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; 22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

I guess if we hold the Bible at a sufficient distance and ignore enough of the details we can get some use out of that whale idea.

There are animals in land that where discovered in the 20th century. By our current knowledge, there are over 4-100 million different species, and that is just an estimate with out counting animals that went extinct. How is that all going to fit especially when there are Rhinos, Elephants and all their breeds, hippos, anacondas, crocodiles, and other beasts that weigh over the hundreds?


The book of genesis is written under the narration of moses, and from what we know about the world and the species in it, we can conclude that "all" was a misnomer of Moses or just based on what he knew about the world during that time. God didn't go to man to make scientists, but to write and reveal him to the world. Scientific accuracy was unimportant.

The biggest error a christian does is look to the Bible as a scientific source. It's not.
 
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BobRyan

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There are animals in land that where discovered in the 20th century. By our current knowledge, there are over 4-100 million different species, and that is just an estimate with out counting animals that went extinct.
ok speciation due to simple combination and mutation --- is a real observable element in nature. But baceria don't become amoeba , lizards don't become birds, elephants don't become whales... you know -- the usual. Observable mutation yields lateral movement not vertical movement up the tree of taxonomy.
The book of genesis is written under the narration of moses
It is written by Moses who was writing under divine inspiration.

2 Pet 1:21 "holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from God" so then as a Christian how much do you think God does not know?
 
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BobRyan

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The biggest error a christian does is look to the Bible as a scientific source. It's not.
false. As we learned in the case of Noah - the biggest error humans made was disbelieving that God meant what He said. lesson learned.

Dismissing the virgin birth and bodily resurrection of Christ "Because the Bible is not a scientific source" never worked , it is an idea that never got off the ground for most Christians when they look at those direct acts of God.

And that point continues to be true in every book of the Bible.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.
 
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BobRyan

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YHWH not being in the Gen 1 account indicates it is of a different source
No it does not. There are a great many OT books where both YHWH is not always used for God but rather Adonai , El Shaddai, Elohim --- jumping into the text and declaring that no Author is allowed to use two different names to reference God in the same book -- is not logical.

In the NT - even Jesus credits Moses as the Author and no one else as the Author.
 
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BobRyan

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It's not the literal that is important and that's the part you seem unable to accept. it is an orthodox account which then ordains the value of the 7th day. Creation is a prehistory event so there are no eye witnesses and no way to verify the literal so why would the literal matter? The litteral in this case contributes nothing special to the account.

The details are important not because they are literal but because that is what God has revealed to us. ..

The 7th day is still valuable because God tells us it's valuable but it shows us the account itself is not superficial literal details
That is not logical and even you admit it when one substitutes the historic fact of God's 7 day creation week as the subject - with the virgin birth and bodily resurrection.

IF we downsize/discount/demean the literal nature of the the virgin birth and bodily resurrection, "the literal view contributes nothing to these statements", "details not really important other than God said them", "details still valuable because even though they are not true - God says they are valuable so we ignore our idea of being superficially literal with the details".

It is pretty obvious that sort of thing is utter nonsense and even you would reject it.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing
 
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Cis.jd

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false. As we learned in the case of Noah - the biggest error humans made was disbelieving that God meant what He said. lesson learned.

Dismissing the virgin birth and bodily resurrection of Christ "Because the Bible is not a scientific source" never worked , it is an idea that never got off the ground for most Christians when they look at those direct acts of God.

And that point continues to be true in every book of the Bible.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.
It can't be false because if you claim what I said is false then you run into a very big problem. How do you fit that over 4-100 million in an ark, not to mention the animals that weren't even discovered yet? This is not disbelieving what he said it is just accepting the facts and reality about misnomer terms such as "all". We have to read the bible and not make any uneducated misrepresentations under the false belief of "we are believing what he said". The Bible is written by men who were inspired yet they also based their narration on what they understood.

Romans 3:23 says "for ALL have sinned". Yet we know Jesus never sinned, nor new born babies regardless. If by your reasoning that we must take all to mean 100% then now you must think Jesus sinned because it says "all" right.

Bible isn't a scientific source, making it such does nothing but dishonors God and makes him look fictitious.
 
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BobRyan

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Cis.jd said:

The biggest error a christian does is look to the Bible as a scientific source. It's not.
false. As we learned in the case of Noah - the biggest error humans made was disbelieving that God meant what He said. lesson learned.

Dismissing the virgin birth and bodily resurrection of Christ "Because the Bible is not a scientific source" never worked , it is an idea that never got off the ground for most Christians when they look at those direct acts of God.

And that point continues to be true in every book of the Bible.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.
It can't be false because if you claim what I said is false then you run into a very big problem. How do you fit that over 4-100 million in an ark
The 100 million is your speculation. How is that a problem for humans such that it is better to reject the Bible as literally true than to reject your own speculation on simple observable speciation not possible via normal mutation and recombination. IT does not make sense.
, not to mention the animals that weren't even discovered yet? This is not disbelieving what he said it is just accepting the facts
The "Facts are" that there is no such thing as an animal "God has not discovered yet" at any point in time in all of history. That is not logical.
The facts are that you don't need all species if you are willing to allow speciation to take place after the flood.

In the end you have no Bible argument here - you just have your proof-by-puzzle story games like the one about whales not being on the ark as if that is some sort of problem for God's account of the flood event in Gen 7.

The Bible is written by men who were inspired
Making God the source - and making the result "The Word of God" as Christ said in Mark 7:6-13 where He equates "Moses said" with "Word of God" and where Peter explains how that is the case in 2 Peter 1:21.

Stories about speciation taking place being a problem for God's Word don't work at all. We observe even today via the normal mutation and combination process along with environmental epigenome facts that activate or supress certain already-existing genes the morphologicval changes that result in speciation.
yet they also based their narration on what they understood.
Wrong - they based it on what God showed them and told them.

There are no elephants turning into whales in their accounts - because that was not something that actually happened in nature - so nothing to show.
Romans 3:23 says "for ALL have sinned". Yet we know Jesus never sinned, nor new born babies regardless.
True - but that is not an open door to toss out the Bible.
Bible isn't a scientific source, making it such does nothing but dishonors God and makes him look fictitious.
When people make such wild claims to reject the virgin birth, resurrection of Christ, miracles in the Bible - I dismiss it as not being logical for the same reason I see a certain paucity in your logica above.
 
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Cis.jd

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The 100 million is your speculation. How is that a problem for humans such that it is better to reject the Bible as literally true than to reject your own speculation on simple observable speciation not possible via normal mutation and recombination. IT does not make sense.

The "Facts are" that there is no such thing as an animal "God has not discovered yet" at any point in time in all of history. That is not logical.
The facts are that you don't need all species if you are willing to allow speciation to take place after the flood.

In the end you have no Bible argument here - you just have your proof-by-puzzle story games like the one about whales not being on the ark as if that is some sort of problem for God's account of the flood event in Gen 7.


Making God the source - and making the result "The Word of God" as Christ said in Mark 7:6-13 where He equates "Moses said" with "Word of God" and where Peter explains how that is the case in 2 Peter 1:21.

Stories about speciation taking place being a problem for God's Word don't work at all. We observe even today via the normal mutation and combination process along with environmental epigenome facts that activate or supress certain already-existing genes the morphologicval changes that result in speciation.

Wrong - they based it on what God showed them and told them.

There are no elephants turning into whales in their accounts - because that was not something that actually happened in nature - so nothing to show.

True - but that is not an open door to toss out the Bible.

When people make such wild claims to reject the virgin birth, resurrection of Christ, miracles in the Bible - I dismiss it as not being logical for the same reason I see a certain paucity in your logica above.
It isn't a speculation. You can search it yourself. You thinking it's lesser than 40-100m is what the assertion is. Just look at snakes and how many there are, the types of deer, bears, the types of cats, all of it. Even if you can't believe a certain number there is no doubt there is too many.

Your "there is no species God hasn't discovered yet" makes no sense, because if he did put those undiscovered animals all the way back then, then they wouldn't be "undiscovered" because we already knew about them.

The bible is not a source of the natural world. Christians who use this and have no care about knowledge of anything else is doing a diservice to God because you are viewing the bible like a fan of a celebrity rather than a theologist looking for truth. If you read another religious book that told you the moon is a star, you know that isn't true therefore you can confirm that religion is false with out being bias towards your own. This is the same error christians make with the bible, making all these fallacious claims about scientific facts that any person would know isn't true, hence having the impression that the bible is false.
 
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BobRyan

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It isn't a speculation. You can search it yourself. You thinking it's lesser than 40-100m is what the assertion is. Just look at snakes and how many there are, the types of deer, bears, the types of cats,
Given the genetic ability to have mutations result in speciation as well as recombination creating such a result - why do you claim that as any sort of barrier at all. A few snakes vs many snakes is all lateral. Evolutionism teaching a doctrine where mutation is vertical not merely lateral.
 
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DamianWarS

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God has no interest in supernaturally trying to make a anti-creation model work no matter how many miracles it takes to get it to work -- just so the Bible can be wrong (like belief in evolutionism's doctrine on origins contradicts the text of scripture). That is not logical

a modern western view will view truth by way of facts as the pinnacle value of society. Young Washington tells his Father the famous line "I cannot tell a lie I cut the tree down" and then he is praised for telling the truth rather than reprimanded for cutting down a tree. The irony of this account is that it is made up and didn't actually happen, but it is a modal of high we value facts as the truth even if it hurts someone.

an ancient eastern view, such as the ancient Hebrews, views honor as the highest value and that honor may establish truth even though it may not be fact. A more modern example of this is at the first council of Nicea (where the Nicene creed was made) the official count of bishops present was 318. 318 is an important number but it can be viewed as a number of Christ as well as it is the same number of people Abraham rounded up to rescue lot. 318 then functions to ordain the council as of God but in fact the number was probably under 300 and as low as 250. but those numbers don't ordain the council the way 318 does, so in this context 318 is the better number and because it is the better number it becomes the truth. Not because it is fact, but because it is the best way to honor the council.

you are applying modern western thinking over an ancient easter account without considering how the ancient mind would process these things and to what greater goals the accounts may have. the accounts are not "wrong" they are truth, and they are truth because it is a creation account tailored for the Hebrews that also foreshadow Christ and a salvation metaphor. It is a higher truth than the literal can achieve.

I agree that all the anti-Bible proposals can be "fixed by God" to work no matter how irrational a Stork is as a the mechanism for delivering babies etc. He is powerful enough to make illogical stories appear true or even work out as per the story just so the Bible can be wrong... But He is not in that business. It is not logical.

you speak of illogical resolves, I speak of logical ones. in theistic evolution God is in control and he wills what and when something changes and he may cease that process. These are logical solutions to the OP rather than mocking the OP with illogical resolves as you're seem to be concluding.

No it does not. There are a great many OT books where both YHWH is not always used for God but rather Adonai , El Shaddai, Elohim --- jumping into the text and declaring that no Author is allowed to use two different names to reference God in the same book -- is not logical.

In the NT - even Jesus credits Moses as the Author and no one else as the Author.

it indicates that it is of a different source than Gen 2 as it also indicates it is a different source than other accounts in the bible that use YHWH. This is not from my opinion or what I merely "think" it is widely held among scholars

That is not logical and even you admit it when one substitutes the historic fact of God's 7 day creation week as the subject - with the virgin birth and bodily resurrection.

IF we downsize/discount/demean the literal nature of the the virgin birth and bodily resurrection, "the literal view contributes nothing to these statements", "details not really important other than God said them", "details still valuable because even though they are not true - God says they are valuable so we ignore our idea of being superficially literal with the details".

It is pretty obvious that sort of thing is utter nonsense and even you would reject it.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing

creation is an unwitnessed event. in fact, the entire Genesis is pre-history for the Hebrews so as per the Hebrews there are no living witnesses of these events. Genesis is a narrative but of not first-hand experiences so what is it a narrative of? do they need to be facts to establish higher truth? You seem to think this compromises the accounts, where I see it as elevating them to establish higher goals and higher truth. Not one single word needs to be reconciled or information filled in because as it stands it reveals exactly what it needs to which is God's gospel message, that is really the only noble goal of the account where all other goals are inferior.

What is more important is the deeper meanings of the account and what they point to rather than being fixated on the literal surface details. View the literal however you wish, but place that view at the bottom of the pile because it is the most unimportant part of the account. Study the deeper meanings because those meanings will establish what truth it is speaking of.

this is different from the birth of Christ as that is not a pre-history event, nor is it an unwitnessed event, and there were living first+hand witnesses. Christ's birth is the literal fusing with the spiritual it is all fact, it all has a spiritual impact. Everything before Christ points to Christ and the further back you get the details can be fluid, but they are not fact-driven, they are goal driven. And it is truth because the goal is truth so everything that builds that goal is truth by way of inheritance.
 
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Lost Witness

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The bible is not a source of the natural world. Christians who use this and have no care about knowledge of anything else is doing a diservice to God because you are viewing the bible like a fan of a celebrity rather than a theologist looking for truth.
How is acknowledging how GOD has created everything a disservice to GOD when it Brings him Glory in Doing so?
310780211_182966154267112_5429571890484194083_n.jpg

not to mention the Bible was written By Individuals who were/are being led by the LORDS Holy Spirit,
Which is the Spirit of Both POWER and "TRUTH"
 
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Cis.jd

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How is acknowledging how GOD has created everything a disservice to GOD when it Brings him Glory in Doing so?
View attachment 326034
not to mention the Bible was written By Individuals who were/are being led by the LORDS Holy Spirit,
Which is the Spirit of Both POWER and "TRUTH"


We acknowledge the main point: he created everything, but we do not take the details literally or should we think specific details about our natural world is from God. The individuals were led by God for the purpose of revealing him to man, they where not chosen to explain his design because of that we must take in consideration that they did narrate things based on what people understood during their time. We can not throw away facts just because it doesn't match your fundamental interpretation of scripture otherwise we end up making the Bible look like a work of fiction and that is a disservice.

Here is an example: Do you believe the moon is an actual star?
 
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DamianWarS

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We can not throw away facts just because it doesn't match your fundamental interpretation of scripture otherwise we end up making the Bible look like a work of fiction and that is a disservice.
This is exactly right. When we ignore science and call creation literal we in effect are estranging it from the masses because it will only be viewed as myth so we are keeping the gospel from people because they cannot accept a literal view. However when we can accept a scientific view while at the same time unpack greater spiritual benifit out of accounts like creation we elevate scripture and invite a greater audience to participate in its truth.

What does the literal accomplish in this case? It actually takes away from the account. Ancients accepted it matter of factly so the details help reveal the truth. Modern views see it as myth and when told must accept it as literal will reject it blinding them to the truth. What's the truth? The creation account is a salvation metaphor (see 2 Cor 4:6 or 2 Cor 5:17) so it is more important that we use the account to reveal Christ than it is to demand the literal. The former gives life, the latter is self imploding.
 
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BeyondET

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Science confirms that there is not one observation of dust,rocks,gas,sun-light producing a horse, or rabbit, or amoeba, or bacteria over time.

Science confirms that observations of over 80,000 generations of bacteria in the "long running evolution experiment" results in "more bacteria" - i.e. more prokaryotes - and not a single eukaryote. That's more generations of direct observation than supposedly it took for humans to evolve in the first place.

Science confirms that when something vastly complex in terms of machinery with encoding, decoding , manufacture, error-correction is detected it is a sign of intelligent design and manufacture and not merely a function of what we expect from dust,gas,rocks and sunlight "in sufficient quantities given enough time and chance".

The Bible says that it is infinite capability, infinite wisdom and power that is the "cause" the origin of that vastly complex machinery with encoding, decoding , manufacture, error-correction mechanism fully functional and autonomous.

To many rational minds this idea of the creator having more capability and intelligence than the thing created - makes sense and fits what we observe in real life.

By contrast -- the problem for evolution's doctrine on origins is so big that we could even see a world class atheist scientist - a true believer in Evolution's doctrine on origins - lamenting the problem that they are stuck with.
======================
Colin Patterson (Senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum and author of the Museum’s general text on evolution)

April 10, 1979 Letter from Colin Patterson
to Sunderland


“ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.

"You suggest that an artist should be used to visualize such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?

"I wrote the text of my book four years ago. If I were to write it now, I think the book would be rather different. Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it.

"Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. As a palaeontologist myself, I am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying ancestral forms in the fossil record.

"You say that I should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test. So, much as I should like to oblige you by jumping to the defence of gradualism, and fleshing out the transitions between the major types of animals and plants, I find myself a bit short of the intellectual justification necessary for the job “

[Ref: Patterson, personal communication. Documented in Darwin’s Enigma, Luther Sunderland, Master Books, El Cajon, CA, 1988, pp. 88-90.]
Dirt comes from animals plants rocks etc.

There is around 10,000 living in and on the human bidy.
 
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BeyondET

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We acknowledge the main point: he created everything, but we do not take the details literally or should we think specific details about our natural world is from God. The individuals were led by God for the purpose of revealing him to man, they where not chosen to explain his design because of that we must take in consideration that they did narrate things based on what people understood during their time. We can not throw away facts just because it doesn't match your fundamental interpretation of scripture otherwise we end up making the Bible look like a work of fiction and that is a disservice.

Here is an example: Do you believe the moon is an actual star?
At the time of writing Genesis, planets was considered wondering stars they had no knowledge of other planets. Thus He created the stars also. Moon isn't a star that's well known.
 
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BobRyan

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Dirt comes from animals plants rocks etc.
No doubt the downward decay pattern is always available from a higher state of organization.

entropy in information and organization can always be had.
 
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BobRyan

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We acknowledge the main point: he created everything, but we do not take the details literally
Legal code takes it litertally in Ex 20:11, the NT takes it literally and exegesis requires it for Gen 1-2.


We can not throw away facts just because it doesn't match your fundamental interpretation
That is wishful thinking. The text is in fact speaking in literal terms as its summary in the legal code of Ex 20:11 points out.

In fact the leading scholars of Hebrew and OT studies in all world-class universities also agree with this according to one of their own - James Barr. So there is no way to "blame it all on Bible believers"

Even the literal detail of "man created first and then woman" is affirmed in the NT - it is "the details" that are affirmed in Ex 20:11 and by Paul and by Christ . In other words the very thing you claim is most untrue about the account in Gen 1-2 is what they affirm.


BTW - the Gen 1 account does not call the moon a star

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

What it says is that the two brightest lights in the sky were created on day 4 -- so then nothing brighter than the sun and moon in terms of luminosity reaching the earth. This is a detail, a science fact. And the number of them is 2 ... a detail... a science fact. The very things you claim are most untrue about the text.
 
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Methodist
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Married
The Bible of course points to a 7 day creation week in Gen 2:1-3
And confirms the literal day timeline for that week in Ex 20:11 legal code. (Details given here #51)
The Bible is always literal first and symbolic second. One does not cancel out the other.
 
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