Say Hello to an EX-YEC!!

[Vance]

MySavior:

Been away on a short cruise and came back to this good news! Congratulations!

I think the best news is that your discovery that YEC'ism was so full of falsehoods didn't shake your faith. This is the real danger of YEC'ism. For every one like you that retains their faith on discovering the truth, I shudder to think how many abandon Christianity altogether. I like to think it is through groups like this that preach the unending mantra that evolution is not atheism, and that Christian beliefs and evolution and an old earth are not incompatible help in keep Christians "in the fold".

Again, I am praying for you and I wish you all the best in discussing the matter with your family. My advice is to not let yourself get into deep debates at this point, but just let them know that it does not effect your Christian beliefs or even your belief that that Bible is the true Word of God (even if not always to be read literally). Maybe when they see your Christianity is actually strengthened and deepened, despite your "heresy", it will soften their hearts on these issues.

 

[seebs]

The problem is that vB doesn't have sarcasm tags.

 

[troodon]

Do you remember the thread describing a conversion moment in a university library? A creationist had decided to go back and check the original published source cited in a creationist publication and was struck by how different the real research literature is from how it's portrayed in the creationist books and websites, and not only that, but how much there was of it.

http://www.christianforums.com/t43330

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Hovind shows the flood in his theory.

Let me just say HAHAHAHA your a "Theistic Evolutionist"

Eat those lIes like it's TURKEY!

Admit it - you're an atheist troll, aren't you?

Genuine YECs sometimes get this low, but not often.

 

[ikester7579]

He found the truth, when will you?

Do you think everyone should think like you do? I have made my choice like I said, can you accept that? Or will you turn into a troll and follow me everywhere?

 

[Jet Black]

Do you think everyone should think like you do? I have made my choice like I said, can you accept that?

we can acccept it, it is no skin off my nose. however we will continue to think you are wrong and demonstrate that to be the case.

 

[Talcos Stormweaver]

Do you think everyone should think like you do? I have made my choice like I said, can you accept that? Or will you turn into a troll and follow me everywhere?

The problem lies in the fact that you are acting like we are preaching a religious belief inasmuch as we would want to force it on you. However, this is a scientific system (or belief, I can not find a better word, ).

For example, lets us say there is a rock on the table (yes, there is a table, just imagine it nearby your computer. Yes, its a school desk, traditional glossy wood-like paint coating.). The religious question would be who created the rock and why. The scientific question would be how the rock got to be where it is since it was first made.

It would be impossible to force your religious belief on the other person that the rock was made directly by God (because they as well might have evidence, even being false). However, we are debating this on a level which would be how the rock (or can I just speak in terms of evolution) got there, which we have verifiable evidence for. Not being a religious belief, it is possible to counter you with logical reasoning based on evidence which has yet to be accurately falsified. Your denial of this evidence and our constant badgering is justifiable, because we possess evidence which does not apply to the realm of the supernatural. This evidence is measureable, recordable, and has yet to be falsified.

My point is is that you are taking this in like it is a religious belief, and that we are forcing our 'religious' beliefs onto you. However, we are showing evidence which is acceptable by scientific standard, and you blindly refuse it in the name of religion, for which this topic has little relation to (unless you take a literal interpretation towards it).

You make your choice not based on any form of scientific backing, but instead choose that religion is right and science is wrong in this instance (once again, literal interpretation). It is like saying that God created the rock as it is, despite the fact that there is not only a trail of other rocks leading up to the desk, but there is also a paper on the types of rocks of the area which has been torn slightly due to the weight of the rocks that were so quickly dropped onto the ground.

 

[lucaspa]

--What could you possibly read in one day that could result in such a dramatic transition? Let alone a year?

Cheers,
-Chris Grose

Origin of the Species. Strahler's Earth Science. Genesis and Geology by Gillespie. Futuyma's Evolutionary Biology. Miller's Finding Darwin's God.

It doesn't take much reading to falsify creationism. Easily done within 6 months.

 

[lucaspa]

The scientific question would be how the rock got to be where it is since it was first made.

It would be impossible to force your religious belief on the other person that the rock was made directly by God (because they as well might have evidence, even being false). However, we are debating this on a level which would be how the rock (or can I just speak in terms of evolution) got there, which we have verifiable evidence for. Not being a religious belief, it is possible to counter you with logical reasoning based on evidence which has yet to be accurately falsified. Your denial of this evidence and our constant badgering is justifiable, because we possess evidence which does not apply to the realm of the supernatural. This evidence is measureable, recordable, and has yet to be falsified.

My point is is that you are taking this in like it is a religious belief, and that we are forcing our 'religious' beliefs onto you. However, we are showing evidence which is acceptable by scientific standard, and you blindly refuse it in the name of religion, for which this topic has little relation to (unless you take a literal interpretation towards it).

You make your choice not based on any form of scientific backing, but instead choose that religion is right and science is wrong in this instance (once again, literal interpretation).

What Ikester is doing is
1. Thinking that evolution = atheism. So, since atheism is a belief, then evolution is also a belief.
2. Tying the particular how the rock got here to his belief that God exists. So, when we say the rock did not get there the way he thinks, then God doesn't exist. That is his basis for the appeal to tolerance.

My response to that is that:
1. God really created.
2. The physical universe science studies is God's Creation.
3. Therefore, science is reading God's second book.
4. YECs ignore God (by ignoring the second book) and instead look only at their interpretation of Genesis 1-8.
5. YEC has therefore constructed a false idol god of their literal interpretation of the Bible and worship it instead of listening to God.
6. YEC is thus wrong both from the standpoint of science and theology.

 

[Jet Black]

lucaspa:I hear that Futuyama's book is quite technical. how would you say it compares to some of your posts, in terms of detail and complexity... I am considering buying it, but I don't want anything that will go too far over my head, but I do want stretching.

 

[lucaspa]

lucaspa:I hear that Futuyama's book is quite technical. how would you say it compares to some of your posts, in terms of detail and complexity... I am considering buying it, but I don't want anything that will go too far over my head, but I do want stretching.

I've taken my posts on population genetics from Futuyma. The definition of evolution I post is right out of Futuyma. Does that help?

 

[Jet Black]

I've taken my posts on population genetics from Futuyma. The definition of evolution I post is right out of Futuyma. Does that help?

it gives me a good idea I reckon I can handle it

 

[LorentzHA]

I have delved deeply into various geophysical topics quite rigorously and dragged on in my attempts to understand them for months, and in some cases, nearly a year. And yet, I am an infant and I believe it is clear that if I am going to make an unbiased decision as to such ultimates such as the age of the earth (with all its implications) it will require far more time than that time in which I have already labored. That is merely my personal conviction, but I see it as the most rational and credulousless direction I can go.

--If MySavoir is really as interested in scientific inquiry, learning, and research, I suggest he take a similar route.

You mean take a year to study evolution while he still cling to a belief of a 6,000 year old Earth and CreationISM? Have you ever considered that people absorb and understand information at different rates?

That is great for you, education is imortant! However, more importantly I think he realized that his faith was not locked to the age of the Earth nor evolution. His studies showed him that is was science, science that has libraires FULL of informtation and research backing it vs. Faith a false faith, that it doesn't.

IOW-He gave up tying his belief in God to bad science. He kept his God and gained knowledge.

As far as what 10,000 years will hold? I suspect only more Data to add to the heaps already present. In 10,000 years are you implying they will discover something that will tell then all of the visible evidence is false and that the Earth is only 16,000 years old? I will be long gone, but I hope there are still not people that narrow and blind around then.

 

[Mike Flynn]

But to say my choice lies and your's is truth then your trying to push what you choose on me.

Pot, meet Kettle.

No where in God's word does it even mention evolving. And that's what I choose to believe. I will pray for you that you find truth. For it is all that I can do.
God bless you in your quest for truth, ikester.

All kidding aside...this was a refreshing post ikester.

 

[alehm]

Yes, theistic evolution indeed GLORIFIES God more than the apathetic god of YEC.

So you believe cancer and diseases will be in heaven too? Since before man's fall into sin it existed for millions of years and God said it was very good. It would seem dumb God would get rid of such a good thing in the afterlife. I really hope we will continue to get maimed and seriously hurt in heaven as it really brings me closer to God and glorifies Him.

 

[LorentzHA]

So you believe cancer and diseases will be in heaven too? Since before man's fall into sin it existed for millions of years and God said it was very good. It would seem dumb God would get rid of such a good thing in the afterlife. I really hope we will continue to get maimed and seriously hurt in heaven as it really brings me closer to God and glorifies Him.

God said what was very good, cancer? Sorry, but this does not make sense? Reread your post.

 

[Raterus]

Genesis 1:21
So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 2:21-22
So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

And that describes evolution how? Other beliefs aside, they can easily say they don't believe in the bible and get by the Bible's account of creation. But how can you call yourself a Christian and still believe in evolution? Are you picking and choosing what out of the Bible to believe?

 

[pureone]

And that describes evolution how? Other beliefs aside, they can easily say they don't believe in the bible and get by the Bible's account of creation. But how can you call yourself a Christian and still believe in evolution? Are you picking and choosing what out of the Bible to believe?

If you beleive in the literal reading of the Bible and that you don't pick and choose what you beleive, the go over to
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1315571#post1315571
And answer the flood questions I have there. I am using a direct literal reading of the text.

 

[alehm]

God said what was very good, cancer? Sorry, but this does not make sense? Reread your post.

http://www.nature.com/nsu/031020/031020-2.html

Cancer and other diseases are evident in the fossil record. This has nothing to do with the fall of man or mans sin, these diseases were around for millions of years before man came on the seen. When Gods creation was just as He wanted it.


The fossil record > If you think Cancer is good or not.

Hopefully, in heaven we will get to continue to experience these sorts of things for eternity.

 

[Citizen of Earth]

Hearty congratulations, MySavior, on your newfound appreciation for knowledge and progressive attitude.

You are one deconversion away, but every journey begins with the smallest step.