Saturday and Sunday, Sacrament and Economy

[Pavel Mosko]

This thread is a restart to a previous one on the Sabbath and Law board that opened up with these words
"Christians who come from one of the ancient Churches will recognize the two sacred days of the week that have been set apart for rest and for worship, namely that of Saturday / the Jewish Sabbath and Sunday, the Lord's Day. These days have been set apart for Christians for almost two millennia and are the basis of the thing that we know of today as "the weekend".
Unlike the topic of this thread (The Law) Christians do not honor the Sabbath because of the Law but rather for Sacramental reasons that I will explain in my next post."


My intention on that thread was to do what the thread title and that previous original post was about, to give the Early Church mindset around worship. As I remarked 2 years ago on a Facebook Blog type entry (complaining about the mind sets of some Protestants who are very anti-religion,). "The entire concept of Holiness in the Bible is a sacramental one. It comes from things "set apart for God's service". Like the offerings used for sacrifice in Genesis onward, as well as the various tools, materials, furniture, clothing, etc. used in the worship of the Tabernacle and later the temple. Those things used for that, could not be used for anything other than the ministry of the tabernacle and temple." (Basically, no mundane, personal use. especially when it came to the profane, and not koshur end of things).


This kind of notion also applies to the days set apart for worship. In Judaism reverence is shown to God by showing respect to the things connected to his worship. This kind of reminds me how older people can be fussy when it come to some of their nice furniture etc. There is a case in my father's family the Mosko's that really illustrates this. The family really did not like the person my aunt Marie ultimately married and later divorced. But there was this big red flag of the person putting their feet up on the nice new coffee table. That was something they really hated and was a red flag. Being refuges from Czechoslovakia they didn't have much, but the few nice things they had they wanted to keep them nice, and they took that blatant disregard for their stuff personally. And strangely enough the foot on the furniture shibboleth was indeed correct, uncle Don was indeed a really bad guy that aunt Marie probably should have divorced 20 years earlier than she did.


But getting back to Christianity, as I have relayed to my brother Martin who use to send me emails asking about the days we worship in Christianity (It turned out he had been listening to some kind of Adventist radio broadcast out of Sacramento). I told him a number of things I suspect readers of the friend will be familiar with such as: 1) the Sabbath was not officially mandated by the Apostles in Jerusalem Church counsel of acts 15. and 2) Saint Paul also battled people in the epistles who wanted to make the practices of the Mosiac Law mandatory for believers including specific days of worship, but he pushed back against such teaching and thinking and fought it bitterly. But his doing so, however does not mean that we are not informed by such customs and sacramental sentiments because the "weekend" exists out of the Christian context that comes out of Judaism. As I told my brother, if you are Traditional Sacramental Christian, you are doubly blessed compared to the Seven Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Original Jews, because you got two days off rather than just one (The Sabbath and the Lord's Day).


And it should be noted, In Judaism in the temple rules and rubrics, you did not just throw something away when it served its purpose. If there was a way that it could still testify to something or bless somebody you to keep it or use it for that purpose. So, in this way, Christians have retained the Sabbath as a lesser holy day. That is why people historically and traditionally have it off. Because of saint Paul we are not obsessive compulsive about "keeping Sabbath". But it does serve one of its important functions of helping us rest from our work, and it also serves to help prepare us for the Lord's Day.

As I have said before, the Christian identity began to be formed by worship on Sunday. And not for any "Mark of the Beast" reasons as a certain sect falsely asserts. But so much of the growing early Church had it's identity in Christ because they were gentiles and realized they had no share in natural Israel whatsoever. Furthermore, they were successfully evangelized and taught by saint Paul on matters of the Faith and realized this was not part of the Gospel.

Besides this it should be pointed out that the above is even true for the ancient Christians who had a strong Jewish background in their national identity like the Assyrian Church of the East, Syriac Church of Antioch, Ethiopian Orthodox Church, Coptic Orthodox Church and Maronite Catholics. These groups that were largely separate from Latin and Greek Churches and believers, nevertheless felt the same way about Sunday! Their identity as believers came from Christ and not their former Jewish identity and enthusiastically embraced Sunday as the day of worshipping and proclaiming the Gospel. And it should be reinforced just how Jewish and ethnic some of these peoples were following strange Jewish folk customs and some of them like the Ethiopians and Maronite Catholics held to the early Koshur food rules too!




But anyway, Christians began to call Sunday "the Lord's Day" and see it as a day of worship for these reasons:

1) The biggest reason is this is the day our Lord rose from the dead and "trampled down Death by his own Death", as saint John Chrysostom is famously quoted.


2) The Church received the "Holy Spirit" on a Pentecost Sunday


3) This is the day saint John the Divine received his vision or visions that became the book of Revelation. (This point is highly funny and ironic if you know about the SDA lifting "The spirit of prophecy" from the vision to describe Ellen White ministry but them anathematizing Sunday worship as a Satanic).


4) We also have it mentioned in Acts 20 as well (Where Paul is preaching, and the guy falls out of a high window and dies and he raises him from the dead).


5A) More importantly than the last example is the Old Testament significance of the 8th day. A number of important rituals, offerings etc. were done on that day. In Judaism itself it was realized that the 8th day was symbolic of being a new creation, new beginnings etc. and this very much foreshadows New Testament themes of "Being Born Again", "being alive in Christ", resurrection from the dead, God restoring all things at the end of the Age, our own receiving new glorified bodies etc.

5B) Much the same thing is true for the number 50, and it's role in Pentecost and the Jubilee. The fact some festivals fall on the 8th day also is a reminder of the first day of Creation as well since things move as a cycle.




OK this is getting long. My next post will be on the importance of Sunday worship in proclaiming the Gospel to the ancient world. This was not just done in words but in deeds!

I also have other points to make on Jewish customs, institutions and practices that also have relevance for the Economy (Philosophy of ministry and the Bible) of classical Christianity on the issue of worship in general including days of the week such as Conciliarism, Binding and Loosening, tradition aka "Paradosis" and probably other stuff too.

I probably also will throw in some of my own testimony as a former Protestant who did not have much knowledge of any of this stuff in spite of attending seminary part time for a few years, as well as correspondence Bible school too, prior to my theological Journey eastward that happened in late spring of 97.


And naturally I hope the various Orthodox, Catholics, and Traditional Protestants will chime in too with their various insights, comments and questions.

 

[Soyeong]

1) the Sabbath was not officially mandated by the Apostles in Jerusalem Church counsel of acts 15.

Either Acts 15:19-21 is an exhaustive list for mature Gentile believers that limits which laws they should follow to just those four things and nothing else or it is not. The moment that you treat it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that Gentiles should obviously obey other laws like the greatest two commandments is the moment that you can no longer use it as an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow. As stated, it was not an exhaustive list for mature believers, but rather it was a list intended not to make things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues, which means that they were already obeying the command to keep the Sabbath holy.

and 2) Saint Paul also battled people in the epistles who wanted to make the practices of the Mosiac Law mandatory for believers including specific days of worship, but he pushed back against such teaching and thinking and fought it bitterly. But his doing so, however does not mean that we are not informed by such customs and sacramental sentiments because the "weekend" exists out of the Christian context that comes out of Judaism. As I told my brother, if you are Traditional Sacramental Christian, you are doubly blessed compared to the Seven Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Original Jews, because you got two days off rather than just one (The Sabbath and the Lord's Day).

Paul taught about multiple categories of law, such as in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-11, he contracted a law that our faith upholds with a law that is not of faith, in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, and while there is a law that he pushed back against, he also delighted in obeying the Law of God (Romans 7:22), so it is important to correctly identify what he was pushing back in order to avoid the mistake of interpreting him in a way that makes him our to be an enemy of God rather than a servant of God.

For example, Galatians 4:8-11 is commonly interpreted as Paul speaking against returning to keeping God's holy days, however, he addressed those verses to those who formerly did not know God, and the Law of God is His instructions for how to know Him (Exodus 33:13), so he could not have been referring to those who were formerly keeping those instructions, but rather he was referring to those who were former pagans who were returning to pagan holy days. So we should be careful not to mistake what Paul said only against the teachings of man as being against obeying the commands of God, and when we are careful to correctly identify which law he was speaking about, we will find that he did not opposed to following Christ's example of obedience to the Mosaic Law.

And it should be noted, In Judaism in the temple rules and rubrics, you did not just throw something away when it served its purpose. If there was a way that it could still testify to something or bless somebody you to keep it or use it for that purpose. So, in this way, Christians have retained the Sabbath as a lesser holy day. That is why people historically and traditionally have it off. Because of saint Paul we are not obsessive compulsive about "keeping Sabbath". But it does serve one of its important functions of helping us rest from our work, and it also serves to help prepare us for the Lord's Day.

Keeping the Sabbath holy testifies that there is a Creator who created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, who is holy, who sanctifies us, and who saves His people our of bondage, so if we believe in the truth of these things, then we should live in a way that testifies about who God is and what He has done by continuing to keep the Sabbath holy instead of a way that denies the truth of these things. The Sabbath will remain important for as long as the things that it testifies about remain true.

As I have said before, the Christian identity began to be formed by worship on Sunday. And not for any "Mark of the Beast" reasons as a certain sect falsely asserts. But so much of the growing early Church had it's identity in Christ because they were gentiles and realized they had no share in natural Israel whatsoever. Furthermore, they were successfully evangelized and taught by saint Paul on matters of the Faith and realized this was not part of the Gospel.

Besides this it should be pointed out that even the ancient Christians who had a strong Jewish background in their national identity like the Assyrian Church of the East, Syriac Church of Antioch, Ethiopian Orthodox Church, Coptic Orthodox Church and Maronite Catholics nevertheless felt the same way about Sunday! Their identity as believers came from Christ and not their former Jewish identity and enthusiastically embraced Sunday as the day of worshipping and proclaiming the Gospel. And it should be reinforced just how Jewish and ethnic some of these peoples were following strange Jewish folk customs and some of them like the Ethiopians and Maronite Catholics held to the early Koshur food rules too!

There is no such thing as a Gentile becoming a follower of the God of Israel without becoming part of Israel or while not following the instructions that the God of Israel has given for how to follow Him. Likewise, there is no such thing as being taught the Gospel apart from being taught to have faith in the promise, but rather the Gospel that was taught in advance to Abraham is intrinsically connected with faith in the promise (Galatians 3:8).

The command to keep a day holy is not the same as the command to worship God on that day. In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so there is nothing wrong with people establishing their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep he seventh day holy, but they should not hypocritically set aside God's command in order to establish their tradition.

But anyway, Christians began to call Sunday "the Lord's Day" and see it as a day of worship for these reasons:

1) The biggest reason is this is the day our Lord rose from the dead and "trampled down Death by his own Death", as saint John Chrysostom is famously quoted.


2) The Church received the "Holy Spirit" on a Pentecost Sunday


3) This is the day saint John the Divine received his vision or visions that became the book of Revelation. (This point is highly funny and ironic if you know about the SDA lifting "The spirit of prophecy" from the vision to describe Ellen White ministry but them anathematizing Sunday worship as a Satanic).


4) We also have it mentioned in Acts 20 as well (Where Paul is preaching, and the guy falls out of a high window and dies and he raises him from the dead).


5A) More importantly than the last example is the Old Testament significance of the 8th day. A number of important rituals, offerings etc. were done on that day. In Judaism itself it was realized that the 8th day was symbolic of being a new creation, new beginnings etc. and this very much foreshadows New Testament themes of "Being Born Again", "being alive in Christ", resurrection from the dead, God restoring all things at the end of the Age, our own receiving new glorified bodies etc.

5B) Much the same thing is true for the number 50, and it's role in Pentecost and the Jubilee. The fact some festivals fall on the 8th day also is a reminder of the first day of Creation as well since things move as a cycle.

1) Jesus rose from the dead on the Feast of Firstfruits as the firstfruits from the dead, so there is already a day that is rich with relevant symbolism that we can use to honor the resurrection that is in accordance with what God has commanded, so there is absolutely no need whatsoever to set aside any of God's commands in order to do that. Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness (Titus 2:14), so someone trying to honor the resurrection by disobeying God's law would be kind of like a husband trying to honor his wife by committing adultery.

2) In Leviticus 23:15-16, God instructed to seven Sabbaths from the day after the Sabbath for a total of 50 days, which means that Pentecost always falls on the 1st day of the week, so gain there is already a day with relevant symbolism that we can use to honor that giving of the Spirit that is in accordance with what God has commanded, which means that we have no need to set aside any of God's commands in order to do that.

3) "The day of the Lord" has a specific meaning on Jewish eschatology, which is what Jesus was referring to when he said "on that day" (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 24:36, Luke 10:12, Luke 17:31), so Revelation 1:10 is referring seeing a vision of that day, not to the day of the week that he happened to have his vision.

4) Jews count days from sundown to sundown, which means that a meeting on the 1st day of the week was happening Saturday night at sundown, which means that Paul spoke from sundown to midnight, not from morning to midnight, and then he left on Sunday morning to travel. Jews have a longstanding tradition of meeting at this period for Havdalah to mark the closing of the Sabbath and to welcome in the work week, so this is not speaking about making a change to worshiping on Sunday.

5) The significance that the OT places on the 8th day is in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, not in place of it.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

This thread will be following the Statement of Purpose and it will be strictly enforced!



Traditional Theology -- A forum dedicated to the respectful discussion of traditional, historic theology; liturgical practices, doctrines, dogmatics; Holy Scripture as found in the various canons of the Church; Church History; classic confessions of the faith, etc.

Definition of Traditional Christianity:

Traditional Christians hold to the traditional beliefs and customs of the early church that Jesus Christ established and believe they should be acknowledged and used in the development of the Church today. Traditional Christians believe that the Church and associated Tradition - especially from the Apostolic / early Church - guide us even today. These traditions include sources such as church councils and creeds, writings of the early Church Fathers, testimony of the Lives of the Saints, classic confessions of the faith, etc. Many traditional Christians believe that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God, commonly known as theosis or sanctification. Traditional Christians recognize a variety of sacraments and sacramental acts including, but not limited to; Baptism, Holy Communion (Eucharist), Confession and Absolution, Chrismation (confirmation) etc., and consider them to be additional means whereby God imparts His grace on those who have faith.

Example denominations include, but are not limited to, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, Anglicans, Assyrian Church of the East, etc.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Either Acts 15:19-21 is an exhaustive list for mature Gentile believers that limits which laws they should follow to just those four things and nothing else or it is not. The moment that you treat it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that Gentiles should obviously obey other laws like the greatest two commandments is the moment that you can no longer use it as an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow. As stated, it was not an exhaustive list for mature believers, but rather it was a list intended not to make things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues, which means that they were already obeying the command to keep the Sabbath holy.


Paul taught about multiple categories of law, such as in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-11, he contracted a law that our faith upholds with a law that is not of faith, in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, and while there is a law that he pushed back against, he also delighted in obeying the Law of God (Romans 7:22), so it is important to correctly identify what he was pushing back in order to avoid the mistake of interpreting him in a way that makes him our to be an enemy of God rather than a servant of God.

For example, Galatians 4:8-11 is commonly interpreted as Paul speaking against returning to keeping God's holy days, however, he addressed those verses to those who formerly did not know God, and the Law of God is His instructions for how to know Him (Exodus 33:13), so he could not have been referring to those who were formerly keeping those instructions, but rather he was referring to those who were former pagans who were returning to pagan holy days. So we should be careful not to mistake what Paul said only against the teachings of man as being against obeying the commands of God, and when we are careful to correctly identify which law he was speaking about, we will find that he did not opposed to following Christ's example of obedience to the Mosaic Law.


Keeping the Sabbath holy testifies that there is a Creator who created the world in six days and rested on the seventh, who is holy, who sanctifies us, and who saves His people our of bondage, so if we believe in the truth of these things, then we should live in a way that testifies about who God is and what He has done by continuing to keep the Sabbath holy instead of a way that denies the truth of these things. The Sabbath will remain important for as long as the things that it testifies about remain true.


There is no such thing as a Gentile becoming a follower of the God of Israel without becoming part of Israel or while not following the instructions that the God of Israel has given for how to follow Him. Likewise, there is no such thing as being taught the Gospel apart from being taught to have faith in the promise, but rather the Gospel that was taught in advance to Abraham is intrinsically connected with faith in the promise (Galatians 3:8).

The command to keep a day holy is not the same as the command to worship God on that day. In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so there is nothing wrong with people establishing their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep he seventh day holy, but they should not hypocritically set aside God's command in order to establish their tradition.


1) Jesus rose from the dead on the Feast of Firstfruits as the firstfruits from the dead, so there is already a day that is rich with relevant symbolism that we can use to honor the resurrection that is in accordance with what God has commanded, so there is absolutely no need whatsoever to set aside any of God's commands in order to do that. Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness (Titus 2:14), so someone trying to honor the resurrection by disobeying God's law would be kind of like a husband trying to honor his wife by committing adultery.

2) In Leviticus 23:15-16, God instructed to seven Sabbaths from the day after the Sabbath for a total of 50 days, which means that Pentecost always falls on the 1st day of the week, so gain there is already a day with relevant symbolism that we can use to honor that giving of the Spirit that is in accordance with what God has commanded, which means that we have no need to set aside any of God's commands in order to do that.

3) "The day of the Lord" has a specific meaning on Jewish eschatology, which is what Jesus was referring to when he said "on that day" (Matthew 7:22, Matthew 24:36, Luke 10:12, Luke 17:31), so Revelation 1:10 is referring seeing a vision of that day, not to the day of the week that he happened to have his vision.

4) Jews count days from sundown to sundown, which means that a meeting on the 1st day of the week was happening Saturday night at sundown, which means that Paul spoke from sundown to midnight, not from morning to midnight, and then he left on Sunday morning to travel. Jews have a longstanding tradition of meeting at this period for Havdalah to mark the closing of the Sabbath and to welcome in the work week, so this is not speaking about making a change to worshiping on Sunday.

5) The significance that the OT places on the 8th day is in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, not in place of it.

I respectfully disagree and will stand on the witness of the Ancient Christians who gave us the Bible, were discipled by the original apostles and were witnesses of the Gospel even under intense persecution even unto torture and death.

Jude 3
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.


1 TIMOTHY 3:15
but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.


I will also point out this thread was started because Traditional Christians were actually interested in my original OP that was on Sabbath and Law board and asked me to restart it, so please do not sidetrack it with your neo-Hebrew roots theology.

 

[Soyeong]

I respectfully disagree and will stand on the witness of the Ancient Christians who gave us the Bible, were discipled by the original apostles and were witnesses of the Gospel even under intense persecution even unto torture and death.

I said nothing against standing on the witness of the Ancient Christians who gave us the Bible, but rather I spoke in regard to how I think we should understand what they wrote. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, include repenting from not keeping the 7th day holy.

Jude 3) New King James Version​

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and again God's law is how we know what sin is, so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not honoring our parents and keeping the 7th day holy is intrinsically part of the concept obeying saved from not keeping the 7th day holy.

1 TIMOTHY 3:15
but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

God's nature is truth and God's law is His instruction for how to act in accordance with His nature, so it is also truth (Psalms 119:142) and the sum of God's word is truth (Psalms 119:160). Jesus is God's word made flesh (John 1:14), so he is the living embodiment of truth (John 14:6) insofar as he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, including keeping the 7th day holy. The household of God is the pillar and ground of the truth because it is composed of people who are also embodying the truth in accordance with following Christ example through faith.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [a]epistle.​

Traditions should be in accordance with what God has commanded and not contrary to it.

I will also point out this thread was started because Traditional Christians were actually interested in my original OP that was on Sabbath and Law and asked me to restart it, so please do not sidetrack it with your neo-Hebrew roots theology.​

I don't have Neo-Hebrew roots theology, but rather my theology is in accordance with that of the earliest Christians.

 

[prodromos]

I don't have Neo-Hebrew roots theology, but rather my theology is in accordance with that of the earliest Christians.

Spare us.
If your theology is in accordance with that of the earliest Christians then you should be able to quote support from those earliest Christians, and by that I mean the Christians who were taught by the Apostles. If you do not interpret the Scriptures as those who were taught personally by the Apostles, then your theology is not in accordance with that of the earliest Christians.

 

[Soyeong]

Spare us.
If your theology is in accordance with that of the earliest Christians then you should be able to quote support from those earliest Christians, and by that I mean the Christians who were taught by the Apostles. If you do not interpret the Scriptures as those who were taught personally by the Apostles, then your theology is not in accordance with that of the earliest Christians.

In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law, which is in accordance with believing in what Jesus gave himself to accomplish in Titus 2:14, so Jews coming to faith in Jesus were not ceasing to obey God's law. This means that there was a period of time in between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which all Christian were observant Jews, and this is the earliest form of Christianity that I seek to align my theology with. There are groups like Nazarenes who were followers of Christ who continued to follow his example of obedience to God's law, or as @Pavel Mosko noted, there were Christians who continued to keep food laws, and there is evidence in writings like Clementine Homilies that Christians continued to keep family purity laws.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

My next post will be on the importance of Sunday worship in proclaiming the Gospel to the ancient world. This was not just done in words but in deeds!

An Overview of my latest Apologetics Project

I have always been interested in Apologetics and believe myself called to it. In recent months I have gotten into defense of early Christian practice especially around Sunday, and especially around claims around Sunday and the Sabbath from groups like the Seventh Day Adventists who try to make the days of worship a wedge issue and use it to proselytize Christians.


My best Apologetics in working in this area takes inspiration from a Coptic Orthodox bishop who I believe is in Los Angeles who wrote a kind of Introduction essay on the Coptic Church called "Church of the Martyrs" that I will link to in my next post. So much of these discussions is not about things like "the facts" but how issues are framed. We see this kind of all the time in the media when it comes to broadcasters having a specific sociopolitical bias and that comes out in how report on the news to plug a certain issue, attack a certain side etc.


I will also say in this regard that I my past background in psychology has been helpful. In particular, is the issue of things like Anti-Semiticsm etc. I have a friend who is a Messianic Rabbi and would hear Anti-Semiticism as a kind of Grand Unifying Theory for the Church. Basically explaining why the ancient Church became the Christian Sacramental body and Apostolic Sees that they became rather than a giant Messianic Jewish movement similar to modern Messianics. And well my study of Adlerian Psychology and Cognitive Psychology was extremely useful for these kind of discussions. One of the things you learn from the Adlerian School of Therapy is how humans tend to interpret the past in light of the present, and if you read much of the material from such groups it seems pretty clear that they are taking the heavy antisemiticsm of times like the Holocaust and Spanish Inquisition and reading that backwards into history. e.g. making Constantine the Boogey Man to blame for why Classical Christianity turned out the way it did.

Anyway I'm going to work on an Apologetic for early Church liturgical practice of the weekend, Sunday etc. that will serve as the basis for my prep notes from video making, Blog type posts etc. But I will do the rough draft here for you in real time since you seem to be interested or at least curious.

The Basic Outline of the videos or Blog series in my head are these kinds of separate themes that I will be writing in the morning.

1) Called to be Witnesses. Inspired by "Church of the Martyrs" and my own series on Evangelism and the Gospel


2) The rule of Prayer is the rule of Faith. Inspired by EO articles on Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi and how that embodies the Jewish view of Faith coming from the Shema, the Psalms, liturgical customs of tabernacle, temple and synagogue etc. Basically, Liturgy is not just praise and worship but a statement of Faith as well.


3) How the Ancient Church functioned in terms of its Eucharist practices and Ecclesiology, Conciliarism etc. and the Jewish Old Testament basis behind such things.


4) What was actually going on in the days before Constantine with the Jews, various major Christian Churches aka Apostolic Sees, heretics, the Talmud and Bar Kokhba etc. This kind of topic is probably pretty familiar with folks on this board, but it is something I often need to cover for the benefit of my Messianic rabbi friend who really loves the Anti-Semiticism grand unifying theory, as well as for other fundamentalist folks that like to cite Alexander Hislop's, the Two Babylon's as actual Church history.


OK take care everyone!
.

 

[FenderTL5]

An Overview of my latest Apologetics Project

I have always been interested in Apologetics and believe myself called to it. In recent months I have gotten into defense of early Christian practice especially around Sunday, and especially around claims around Sunday and the Sabbath from groups like the Seventh Day Adventists who try to make the days of worship a wedge issue and use it to proselytize Christians.


My best Apologetics in working in this area takes inspiration from a Coptic Orthodox bishop who I believe is in Los Angeles who wrote a kind of Introduction essay on the Coptic Church called "Church of the Martyrs" that I will link to in my next post. So much of these discussions is not about things like "the facts" but how issues are framed. We see this kind of all the time in the media when it comes to broadcasters having a specific sociopolitical bias and that comes out in how report on the news to plug a certain issue, attack a certain side etc.


I will also say in this regard that I my past background in psychology has been helpful. In particular, is the issue of things like Anti-Semiticsm etc. I have a friend who is a Messianic Rabbi and would hear Anti-Semiticism as a kind of Grand Unifying Theory for the Church. Basically explaining why the ancient Church became the Christian Sacramental body and Apostolic Sees that they became rather than a giant Messianic Jewish movement similar to modern Messianics. And well my study of Adlerian Psychology and Cognitive Psychology was extremely useful for these kind of discussions. One of the things you learn from the Adlerian School of Therapy is how humans tend to interpret the past in light of the present, and if you read much of the material from such groups it seems pretty clear that they are taking the heavy antisemiticsm of times like the Holocaust and Spanish Inquisition and reading that backwards into history. e.g. making Constantine the Boogey Man to blame for why Classical Christianity turned out the way it did.

Anyway I'm going to work on an Apologetic for early Church liturgical practice of the weekend, Sunday etc. that will serve as the basis for my prep notes from video making, Blog type posts etc. But I will do the rough draft here for you in real time since you seem to be interested or at least curious.

The Basic Outline of the videos or Blog series in my head are these kinds of separate themes that I will be writing in the morning.

1) Called to be Witnesses. Inspired by "Church of the Martyrs" and my own series on Evangelism and the Gospel


2) The rule of Prayer is the rule of Faith. Inspired by EO articles on Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi and how that embodies the Jewish view of Faith coming from the Shema, the Psalms, liturgical customs of tabernacle, temple and synagogue etc. Basically, Liturgy is not just praise and worship but a statement of Faith as well.


3) How the Ancient Church functioned in terms of its Eucharist practices and Ecclesiology, Conciliarism etc. and the Jewish Old Testament basis behind such things.


4) What was actually going on in the days before Constantine with the Jews, various major Christian Churches aka Apostolic Sees, heretics, the Talmud and Bar Kokhba etc. This kind of topic is probably pretty familiar with folks on this board, but it is something I often need to cover for the benefit of my Messianic rabbi friend who really loves the Anti-Semiticism grand unifying theory, as well as for other fundamentalist folks that like to cite Alexander Hislop's, the Two Babylon's as actual Church history.


OK take care everyone!
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Have your read Stephen De Young's book, "The Religion of the Apostles"?


I'm looking forward to the insight you have to offer. I haven't spent a lot of energy studying ancient Church theology concerning the Sabbath. Having read the New Testament, particularly the Book of Acts and also the Didache, I never thought it too controversial.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Have your read Stephen De Young's book, "The Religion of the Apostles"?


I'm looking forward to the insight you have to offer. I haven't spent a lot of energy studying ancient Church theology concerning the Sabbath. Having read the New Testament, particularly the Book of Acts and also the Didache, I never thought it too controversial.

Yes! I bought it on Kindle maybe a month after it came out. Great Book. Got a lot from it, one of the biggest take aways was on the Trinity. The previous conventional wisdom is that Trinitarianism sort of "Evolved" from Jewish Monotheism, and even made that kind of presentation a few years ago when blogging on the Biblical origins of the Trintity. I basically called it a "Harmonization of the Bible" between the passages like the Shema that speak of God's "oneness" vs. the ones talking about "Father", Son" and Holy Spirit, or use plural word endings for nouns and verbs etc.


That book however demolished that idea and showed it's origin coming from post Reformation theology in the West as well as post Talmudic Judaism. As the author relates also from the Ancient Faith radio broadcasts on the topic, old Judaism grasped complexity of the Godhead. Now I understood that a little bit, being turned on to some of the Michael Heiser videos on Youtube talking about Second Temple Judaism and the "Two Powers in Heaven" theory of that era. But as De Young points out this is viewpoint of complexity in God was much more common or normal than what I originally thought. De Young points out to the Revisionist history that is made in the later Rabbinic Judaism, that was a kind of defense or hedge against Christian evangelism and Christian thought and this led to them embracing what he terms as "hard monotheism" that was unlike the previous Judiasm.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Our Parish is currently vacant; our vacancy Pastor has his own Parish to look after, therefore our services are now Saturday morning, and his are Sunday Morning. We are very grateful to have him as we work towards calling our next Pastor.

 

[The Liturgist]

Our Parish is currently vacant; our vacancy Pastor has his own Parish to look after, therefore our services are now Saturday morning, and his are Sunday Morning. We are very grateful to have him as we work towards calling our next Pastor.

Dang I wish I had pursued ordination in the LCMS/LCC about now… Your parish is one of the crown jewels of liturgical Christianity in North America. Whoever you call is going to be an exceedingly lucky man (I assume/hope your parish is of a mind to call a liturgically-oriented pastor).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Dang I wish I had pursued ordination in the LCMS/LCC about now… Your parish is one of the crown jewels of liturgical Christianity in North America. Whoever you call is going to be an exceedingly lucky man (I assume/hope your parish is of a mind to call a liturgically-oriented pastor).

On the list of candidates that was provided for us by our Bishop, all are good, solid men. Our problem is not the application of liturgics, but members who are more concerned about money and the retention of property than the ministry of the Church. One member a while back flatly stated that we must keep the building so our life long members can be buried from here. A Church must be much more than a mortuary temple. This is our biggest issue.

 

[The Liturgist]

On the list of candidates that was provided for us by our Bishop, all are good, solid men. Our problem is not the application of liturgics, but members who are more concerned about money and the retention of property than the ministry of the Church. One member a while back flatly stated that we must keep the building so our life long members can be buried from here. A Church must be much more than a mortuary temple. This is our biggest issue.

By the way, I didn’t realize the LCC/LCMS had bishops, owing to the congregational polity, although your mentioning of it brings back memories of LCMS parochial school where a bishop was mentioned, which I had forgotten (which is unsurprising considering that happened when I was ten years old). Could you elaborate on their function and how many there are?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

By the way, I didn’t realize the LCC/LCMS had bishops, owing to the congregational polity, although your mentioning of it brings back memories of LCMS parochial school where a bishop was mentioned, which I had forgotten (which is unsurprising considering that happened when I was ten years old). Could you elaborate on their function and how many there are?

Job description rather than official title. With the restructuring of LCC, the Circuit Councilors on a local level; the Regional Pastors on a "regional" level, and our synod President on a National level are now doing very little direct day to day administration (this is done by boards and committees; so their duties are more spiritual. Part of the restructuring was also to infer the titles of Regional Bishops and National Bishop. Many of us (including the Clergy) use these terms, albeit unofficially. In LCMS the Bishop of the English District does have that title, and does wear a Miter.

 

[The Liturgist]

Job description rather than official title. With the restructuring of LCC, the Circuit Councilors on a local level; the Regional Pastors on a "regional" level, and our synod President on a National level are now doing very little direct day to day administration (this is done by boards and committees; so their duties are more spiritual. Part of the restructuring was also to infer the titles of Regional Bishops and National Bishop. Many of us (including the Clergy) use these terms, albeit unofficially. In LCMS the Bishop of the English District does have that title, and does wear a Miter.

Very interesting. Does the English district celebrate pontifical masses, like some Lutheran churches with bishops, such as the Church of Sweden?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Very interesting. Does the English district celebrate pontifical masses, like some Lutheran churches with bishops, such as the Church of Sweden?

I am unsure; for years they were considered a more liberal faction; not so much now.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am unsure; for years they were considered a more liberal faction; not so much now.

Indeed, I had read about that.