Satan Is Not The Devil

[daq]

Is there any where else in the bible that shows the out come of our hope for those who believe at the end of all life? If you dismiss John then you have to dismiss the other prophetic books that relate to it ie: Daniel and Ezekiel. If he were mentally unstable would the Counsel who chose which books were to be included in the bible, keep his? It is written at the end of Revelation that no-one is to add or take away the words of this book least they come under a curse. Is it not God himself that has chosen what is to be revealed in these times and what is not? Why is his mental state in question just because you do not understand this revelation?

Shalom-Peace Ariel! Good to see you here!

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To the topic: Where is it written in the law that he says "Ye are gods"?

John 10:34-35 KJV
34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [theos]
35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Most already know of Psalm 82 yet Yeshua says "written in your nomos-law" ~

Psalms 82:1-8 KJV
1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6. I have said, Ye are gods; ['elohiym] and all of you are children of the most High.
7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes [sariym].
8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Is the King James mistaken in Exodus 22:28? There are plenty of mistakes in all of the English translations but perhaps it may only be understoood by the supporting context and at least, (in this case) it seems the KJV is correct:

Exodus 22:22-28 KJV
22. Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23. If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
24. And My wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.
25. If thou lend money to any of My people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
26. If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down:
27. For that is his covering only, it is his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep? and it shall come to pass, when he crieth unto me, that I will hear; for I am gracious.
28. Thou shalt not revile the gods, ['elohiym] nor curse the ruler [nasiy'] of thy people.

Who then are these "gods" if not the fierce-`Az countenances men?
Beware of the "leaven" of that Herod anthropon man-faced countenance:

Matthew 10:17-18 KJV
17. But beware of the anthropon-man-faced: for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrin-councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18. And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the heathen.

The first commandment clearly states not to put ourselves before the Most High:

Exodus 20:1-3 KJV
1. And God spake all these words, saying,
2. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3. Thou shalt have no other gods ['elohiym] before me.

 

[strangertoo]

Shalom-Peace Ariel! Good to see you here!

------------------------------

To the topic: Where is it written in the law that he says "Ye are gods"?

John 10:34-35 KJV
34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [theos]
35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Most already know of Psalm 82 yet Yeshua says "written in your nomos-law" ~

Psalms 82:1-8 KJV
1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6. I have said, Ye are gods; ['elohiym] and all of you are children of the most High.
7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes [sariym].
8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Is the King James mistaken in Exodus 22:28? There are plenty of mistakes in all of the English translations but perhaps it may only be understoood by the supporting context and at least, (in this case) it seems the KJV is correct:

Exodus 22:22-28 KJV
22. Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23. If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
24. And My wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.
25. If thou lend money to any of My people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
26. If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down:
27. For that is his covering only, it is his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep? and it shall come to pass, when he crieth unto me, that I will hear; for I am gracious.
28. Thou shalt not revile the gods, ['elohiym] nor curse the ruler [nasiy'] of thy people.

Who then are these "gods" if not the fierce-`Az countenances men?
Beware of the "leaven" of that Herod anthropon man-faced countenance:

Matthew 10:17-18 KJV
17. But beware of the anthropon-man-faced: for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrin-councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18. And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the heathen.

The first commandment clearly states not to put ourselves before the Most High:

Exodus 20:1-3 KJV
1. And God spake all these words, saying,
2. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3. Thou shalt have no other gods ['elohiym] before me.

This seems to be a sound argument against the 'Gnostic' stance that Satan is as much a god as 'the Father' of Christ, Satan, man... which is easily a more important point than the topic since there cannot be resolution of abusive mankind of sin unless God is ONE, God is Love... Satan clearly becomes a man [Ezek 28, 2Thess 2] but in fact that is not the topic here unless one is claiming 'devils' cannot manifest as men ?

 

[daq]

This seems to be a sound argument against the 'Gnostic' stance that Satan is as much a god as 'the Father' of Christ, Satan, man... which is easily a more important point than the topic since there cannot be resolution of abusive mankind of sin unless God is ONE, God is Love... Satan clearly becomes a man [Ezek 28, 2Thess 2] but in fact that is not the topic here unless one is claiming 'devils' cannot manifest as men ?

Every man has his "twin witness" and this is your accuser before the Most High because he knows every little thing that you do. When the conscience is void of offense then your accuser will no more appear with you to bear witness against you when you come before the Most High upon your knees, in your private chamber when you chamber in chamber, with your windows opened toward Jerusalem of above. And when your accuser no longer has access to the throne room by the highways of a defiled conscience then the devil and his angels will have been cast out of your heavens: Woe, woe, woe to your earth and to the permanently housed dwellers therein! The time thereafter will be short!

 

[stone]

rather ,God says Satan is beautiful ... and appears to man as an angel of light surrounded by men putting on a world-convincing act of being holy ... one does not become the Antichrist by being vile...

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
...
Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

That was a long time ago. We are now at war with Satan.

 

[strangertoo]

That was a long time ago. We are now at war with Satan.

not much of a war, mankind worships Satan in politics and religion, in institutions worldwide ... as Jesus says Rev 13:3-4 , ALL the world will worship Satan as God as the Gnostics in power already point out , it is de facto complete submission to evil that will destroy us ... except a couple of thousand saints still alive and tens of thousands that died throughout history at the hands of evil of politics and religion under Satan's hand ... Jude 1:14...
the division Jesus speaks of is the separation of saints from ALL who still are sinners at his return and Jesus says how few he will take ...

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[he-man]

1. God is the only god. He is all powerful. The angels serve Him.
2. Satan is subject to God's will and authority. If Satan were free to act on his own, and has godlike powers, this contradicts #1.

Who then is this angel you are speaking of and where did he come from, who is also termed the destroyer whom was present and was instrumental in killing all the firstborn males in Egypt and passed over the ones who had smeared blood on the doors.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite.

Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest He that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Exo 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the spirit.

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.

2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

Keep in mind the purpose of God who made all things:

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[strangertoo]

Originally Posted by Ariel Gavriel View Post
If he were insane at the time then the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are thrown, the book of life and the new Jerusalem do not exist...it's all just a fabrication.

Do you know the mental state of John while he was in exile on Patmos? Do you know whether or not he suffered from malnutrition, sleep deprivation, disease, or torture? No, you do not because we don't have that information. Furthermore, was it John the Apostle or another John? There are mixed opinions even within the top levels of Christian scholars.

Which begs the question, since Revelation is prophetic (John is interpreting dreams/visions of the future) do we take it literally, metaphorically, allegorically or as an etiology? Again, mixed opinions.

this is NOT the point, the Revelation is of Jesus Christ given by God , NOT of John... Rev 1:1 - read it !

 

[strangertoo]

Originally Posted by Primi Agminis

1. God is the only god. He is all powerful. The angels serve Him.
2. Satan is subject to God's will and authority. If Satan were free to act on his own, and has godlike powers, this contradicts #1.
​

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

I see no contradiction, what is it that you are talking about ?

God creates good and evil , takes responsibility for both, eliminates evil in the end through Jesus Christ whom ALL accept as king according to Jesus :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Satan too is created [Ezek 28] so will accept Jesus as king and Love everyone in the end ... and obviously there can be no other end for the God of Love, none can be excluded from being happy when all obey Jesus and God :-

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

so why would one have a problem with God creating evil for the trial of Love of men , to use it for good because men's Love NEEDS honing ...

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jeremiah 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

 

[he-man]

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

That is why he said God touched him through the angel/destroyer. "...and I have created the destroyer to destroy. Isa 54:16

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Satan too is created [Ezek 28]

That is the Prince of Tyrus not a devil but certainly an adversary.
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Who then is this angel you are speaking of and where did he come from, who is also termed the destroyer whom was present and was instrumental in killing all the firstborn males in Egypt and passed over the ones who had smeared blood on the doors.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite.

Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest He that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Exo 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the spirit.

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

16 And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.

2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

The scriptures are here to teach us, not for you to find fault with.

Then learn them correctly and within context.

I am consecrated in His ways, not by some college professor at a cemetery.

JLB

While cemeteries can be interesting with their ornate tombs and such, I don't attend class there, nor do my professors reside there. Interesting thought though!

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Who then is this angel you are speaking of and where did he come from, who is also termed the destroyer... (condensed)

In the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, there are only 4 angels that are named: Michael, Gabriel, Abaddon and Satan (i.e. Satariel, Sataniel or Satan'el).

If you include the Apocrypha and look at the Book of Enoch, others are named to include Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Saraqael, and Remiel.

Out of all of those, there is but one who's name means "destroyer or destruction," and it's not Satan. That would be Abaddon.

Could it be that Christian writers of long ago, mistakenly used Satan (the accuser/adversary) in place of Abaddon (the destroyer)?

Aside from that, the Bible does not tell us which angel(s) performed those tasks you highlighted.

Something to think about.

 

[he-man]

In the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, there are only 4 angels that are named: Michael, Gabriel, Abaddon and Satan (i.e. Satariel, Sataniel or Satan'el). Out of all of those, there is but one who's name means "destroyer or destruction," and it's not Satan. That would be Abaddon. Could it be that Christian writers of long ago, mistakenly used Satan (the accuser/adversary) in place of Abaddon (the destroyer)? Aside from that, the Bible does not tell us which angel(s) performed those tasks you highlighted. Something to think about.

Abaddon is always used as destruction in the Ot.
[אבדּון ] The Hebrew term Abaddon (, ), is an intensive form of the word "destruction,"

There is no ambiguous mention of a satan having the keys to the grave or to destruction. It is always the angel of the Lord who is the Destroyer.

Pro 15:11 The grave and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Job_26:6 destruction H11
Job_28:22 Destruction H11
Job_31:12 destruction H11
Psa_88:11 destruction H11

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

11 And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Yahweh shall judge the ends of the earth; and shall give the mighty corner to his king, and exalt the horn of the Messiah. 1Sa 2:10


Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of the grave and of death.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Imagican]

Semantics. What's in a name? What should be troubling you is the nature of his game!

Exactly.

Having lived for 52 years and spending the first 30 of it following Satan, I find it amazing that there are those that indicate they accept the concept of The Holy Spirit but are unable to recognize the 'spirit of this world'.

There was a 'time' when I most certainly followed 'The Father of LIES'. I recognize Satan in MANY of his guises and can't help but wonder how ANYONE 'born of the Holy Spirit' could be UNABLE to recognize that Satan IS a 'fallen angel'. While he is plenty capable of duping the masses that have no means to defend themselves, those that KNOW Christ are given, not only instruction, but the TOOLS necessary to overcome 'the Devil', Satan, Lucifer, that 'Serpent of old', the Father of Lies, the Adversary, or whatever NAME one chooses to use in describing that which is the OPPOSITE of 'good'. Opposed to God and His children and ESPECIALLY opposed to Christ, the Son of God.

And for those that refuse to acknowledge the existence of Satan and his demons, that leaves them open and vulnerable to his wiles. For HOW does one defend themselves or protect themselves against an enemy that they refuse to recognize? An enemy that is unrecognized can very well be thought of as: A FRIEND.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

And for those that refuse to acknowledge the existence of Satan and his demons, that leaves them open and vulnerable to his wiles. For HOW does one defend themselves or protect themselves against an enemy that they refuse to recognize?

If by 'Satan and his demons' you mean powers external to human consciousness, I don't acknowledge their existence and don't feel open to "their" wiles because I recognize what appears to be too hard for most Christians to face: you, I and every other human who walks the face of this earth are the satan and his demons. We are each of us the metaphoric Babylon decreed by the OT prophets and by John in Revelation to be destined for destruction.

But this is a good thing. That the false (which creates our wickedness and sin) within each of us is destroyed is salvation. Those portions of each of us will be cast into the LOF and destroyed, and in the death Christ's atonement takes over and accomplishes our rebirth. All the literal understanding of the Bible does is lead folks to endlessly argue about semantics, historical cultural nuances, etc. though nothing in Christian doctrine has changed worth mentioning since the Calvinist/Arminian split over 400 years ago. The literal has taken us all the further it can, and its ability to uncover truth (evidenced by resolving doctrinal tensions) ceased long ago.

Only by opening the door to let the allegorical--which Jesus taught almost exclusively, though no one listened then or now--finish the job will these tensions ever be resolved. This God will allow apparently in His own good time, just as He revealed the purpose of the Messiah despite ancient Judaism's inability to understand His significance in their own literal-based religion.

 

[he-man]

An enemy that is unrecognized can very well be thought of as: A FRIEND.Blessings,MEC

I do not need those who are friends of the world to give me those kinds of blessings, thank you.

Mat 13:28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather them up? [YLT]

Jas 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! have ye not known that friendship of the world is enmity with God? whoever, then, may counsel to be a friend of the world, an enemy of God he is set.

Luk 19:27 but those my enemies, who did not wish me to reign over them, bring hither and slay before me.'