Satan Is Not The Devil

[Vanguard PCD]

I used to think that Satan was the Devil, because that is what I was taught, without ever actually studying the Bible to find out why, and whether or not it is true. I no longer believe that. Here's why...

Satan, in the OT, is nothing more than an angel of God. His name is not actually a name, but a title in Hebrew: Ha-SaTan. It means "the accuser, or the adversary." His job, his duty, is to find sinners, accuse them before God, and then God passes judgment. He follows God's orders, nothing more.

Satan is powerless to act without God's permission. Satan does not have godlike powers unto himself, otherwise there would be more than one god. No where in the OT is Satan accused of or implied to be a fallen angel, the devil, evil or anything else that Christianity has painted him to be. Judaism would agree with this statement, especially since the OT is their Bible, their history, their genealogy, and the basis of their laws.

Don't even try and say that Isaiah 14:12 points to the NT fall of Satan that is described. Isaiah 14:12 is talking about a Babylonian king (Nebuchadnezzar II) and if you read the entire chapter, you'll see that. Nor is Lucifer the name for Satan, because of this same chapter/verse if taken in context. Learn to read the Bible in context.

The NT writers seem to have this gnostic dualism approach. There's good, so there MUST be evil! They made Satan public enemy #1, and gave people an excuse for why bad things happen. Bah!

We have too much mythology surrounding Satan thanks to Dante's Inferno, Paradise Lost, numerous books, movies, bad teachings, and of course the KJV errors in translation/interpretation. People can't seem to separate fact from fiction.

1. God is the only god. He is all powerful. The angels serve Him.
2. Satan is subject to God's will and authority. If Satan were free to act on his own, and has godlike powers, this contradicts #1.

 

[Ariel Gavriel]

Tell me...If Satan is not the devil, [as you have pointed out] then who is?

 

[strangertoo]

Jesus differs in opinion on this one :-

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

BUT the OT, specifically Ezekiel 28, shows that the serpent in Eden [the third heaven, paradise of God] is the ]left-hand] covering cherub at the throne of God , yet is cast out into the earth manifesting as a man, much as Logos standing at the right hand of God as the second of the two covering cherubs manifested as Jesus ...

but Jesus died voluntarily to show saints not to be afraid of death and bring them the holy spirit of God in spirit baptism to know all Truth from God, but Satan dies involutarily for the sin of blasphemy [2Thess 2:4 ,Ezekiel 28:9] as God's way of proving that Satan is no god despite ruling this world [Rev 13:3-4] with lies [as we see in politics and mass religion of sinners today , already]

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Edited reply...

1. He is a being [angel] created by God.
2. His name in English is taken from the Hebrew Ha-SaTan, and it is actually a title: The Accuser.
3. His job is to tempt and accuse those who commit sin, and present them before God for judgment. For a court room analogy, Satan is the district attorney and God is the judge.

Additional info...

4. Apocryphal books have his name rendered as Sataniel, Satariel and Satan'el. These names are in line with other known angels such as Michael, Raphael and Gabriel.
5. In the NT he was doing his job when he tempted Jesus, to see if Jesus would fall/fail. He then would have "brought Jesus up on charges" before God.
6. The Book of Revelation is prophetic. They are visions that John had during his exile on Patmos. The question is, was John sane at the time? They seem like the ramblings of a mad man. Just saying...

 

[watchman333]

Semantics. What's in a name? What should be troubling you is the nature of his game!

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Tell me...If Satan is not the devil, [as you have pointed out] then who is?

Who is the devil...good question. Let's explore this for a minute.

Are you aware that Revelation 20:2 has different interpretations of the Greek?

KJV: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

NASB: And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

NIV: He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

YLT: and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,

The differences are small, BUT, pay attention to the YLT translation. No mention of Satan by name. The YLT is a literal translation of both the Hebrew and Greek. It aims to capture the idioms of those languages. NUMEROUS Bible colleges and pastors alike, use the YLT for in-depth study.

Ha-SaTan does mean accuser or adversary in Hebrew. But...keep in mind that anyone can be a "ha-satan," or the accuser or the adversary." It would be like us saying someone is the teacher, the mayor, the CEO, the fireman, the soldier, etc. It is only a non-personal title. Linguistics 101.

So, how did the other translations arrive at Satan instead of Adversary, like the YLT did. Traditional interpretation. Orthodox Christianity HAS to have Satan as the fallen angel and devil, otherwise it has to admit to centuries of misinformation, bad interpretation, and embarrassing revisions to translations. That's not going to happen.

The translators took the Greek word satanas (adversary), which is similar to the Hebrew ha-satan (adversary or accuser), capitalized it in English (courtesy of the 1611 KJV) and presto, Satan. God's angel as the accuser, and the adversary found in Revelation are two different beings. The term "satan" is erroneously applied to both.

To get back to answering your question...

Who is the devil? There are different theories on this.

Some believe that the devil is metaphorical for evil and sin. Humans are inherently evil, and it is far easier to live in sin and not care, than it is to walk the straight and narrow path. Think of the devil as if saying "the nature of evil is upon you." Ex. "He is possessed by the devil" is the same as saying "he is possessed by evil."

Others believe the devil is an unnamed figure, just like the beast and the false prophet.

Judaism will tell you that there is no such thing as the devil, and it is definitely not supported in the OT.

Christianity is not about figuring out who the devil is. Our religion is about the belief in God, His son Jesus, our salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus, and following the commandments. No where in the Bible does it say that if you don't think Satan is the devil, you won't find salvation.

 

[Ariel Gavriel]

Christianity is not about figuring out who the devil is. Our religion is about the belief in God, His son Jesus, our salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus, and following the commandments. No where in the Bible does it say that if you don't think Satan is the devil, you won't find salvation.

That is true...but you cannot make a statement like "Satan is not the devil" and then point out that our religion is about God and that knowing these things does not mean that we cannot be saved.
It is you who has pointed this out.

The Book of Revelation is prophetic. They are visions that John had during his exile on Patmos. The question is, was John sane at the time? They seem like the ramblings of a mad man. Just saying...

If he were insane at the time then the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are thrown, the book of life and the new Jerusalem do not exist...it's all just a fabrication. If you think that it is a fabrication then Christ died for nothing? I feel though, that you are only saying this so that it fits into your interpretation...it would have been more believable if you had not of dismissed John as an important witness for the coming events just because something is hidden in a prophetical message, it does not mean that it has to be dismissed. Definitely food for thought though!

 

[seeking Christ]

What should be troubling you is the nature of his game!

He's been around for a long long time ...

 

[timewerx]

You are correct that "satan" is just a title, even Jesus called Peter "satan!" when Peter tried to oppose Jesus from doing God's Will.

1. God is the only god. He is all powerful. The angels serve Him.
2. Satan is subject to God's will and authority. If Satan were free to act on his own, and has godlike powers, this contradicts #1.

You are partly wrong in #2. Through God's authority, He has given Satan certain freedoms in exercising control/influence over the whole world (anti-christian teachings are a global phenomenon today, proliferated by the mass media through entertainment) and also exercise supernatural powers which can include miraculous healing, resurrection of the dead, and casting out of demons.

That is how false religions can also perform miraculous healing, even casting out demons, etc to deceive. They are not much apart from witchcraft in that they are summoning both the same evil spirit(s). Only difference is the "summoning rituals"

I'm not saying all miracles are from evil sources, some indeed come from the Holy One. But God allows these things to test man. We should be paying attention to the Word, not on supernatural phenomena. We should test everything by the Truth, not to accept wholeheartedly anyone who can perform miracles but maybe teaching lies. Even performers of miracles can be evildoers (Matthew 7:22-23)

 

[strangertoo]

Edited reply...

1. He is a being [angel] created by God.

Exekiel 28 shows this is true, but also shows that like Logos , the other covering cherub at the throne of God, Satan manifests as a man claiming to be God [see also 2Thess 2:4] ... many angels manifest as men :-

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Satan though is trapped here as he sins on earth as none can translate to spirit who sin still [even in their heart desire to sin]... thus he takes over the world in his attempt to prove he is God ,but God has him killed by strangers for his blasphemy , his rule lasts only three and a half years... the most stated time period in scripture because if one watches one will have warning of Jesus' return at the end of Satan's rule by death

Ezekiel 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

2. His name in English is taken from the Hebrew Ha-SaTan, and it is actually a title: The Accuser.

ha-Satan is the title of the angel tasked with being the adversary, accuser, tempter of mankind , created perfect [Ezek 28] his beauty and power caused vanity of sin against man and God as with most men if allowed fake power over other fellow mankind ... it is no different the 'Jesus' meaning 'saviour' although that is equally a very poor transliteration indeed and thus isn't his name either ... it's the sort of nonsense that abounds in man-made religion, and is largely Satan's doing , as scripture relates , but few care about the Truth [Matt 7:13-14]

3. His job is to tempt and accuse those who commit sin, and present them before God for judgment. For a court room analogy, Satan is the district attorney and God is the judge.

Satan is on trial himself at Jesus' return and judgement day and fails to have stopped sinning at either, so his 'wages' of sin are death, two deaths to free him from sin [Romans 6:7] and as Jesus says, he is saved by the baptism of fire in the lake of fire , the very last man to be translated from the new earth...

4. Apocryphal books have his name rendered as Sataniel, Satariel and Satan'el. These names are in line with other known angels such as Michael, Raphael and Gabriel.

'angels' is just anm unecessary transliteration of 'angelos' which menas just 'messenger' ... Jesus too is a messenger from God , originally Logos, the right-hand covering cherub at the throne of God ... all cherubim hold the face of a man at one time or another :-

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man ...

God's messengers appear as men , but so long as they don't sin they can translate back to the spirit ... any man can be translated who is free of sin , just as Jesus after his resurrection never died again...

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

the way to 'please God' is to keep His command to Love, 'sin' is simply any breaking of God's Law of Love...

5. In the NT he was doing his job when he tempted Jesus, to see if Jesus would fall/fail. He then would have "brought Jesus up on charges" before God.

yes, but instead he commits blasphemy on earth -2Thess 2:4 and is killed righteously for it [as he is under Jewish law as a Jew]

6. The Book of Revelation is prophetic. They are visions that John had during his exile on Patmos. The question is, was John sane at the time? They seem like the ramblings of a mad man. Just saying...

again you are mistaken, the visions are those of Jesus Christ, not John's ... why don't you check before writing falsehoods -Revelation of Jesus the Christ chapter 1 verse 1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

this then is the word of God seen by Jesus and merely sent to John by a messenger...

it is foolish indeed to call God a madman just because you cannot be bothered to stop sinning and receive the Truth yourself which confirms this [as does much of the rest of scripture , OT and NT alike] ... now it is very deliberately not for those who are not prepared to do any work at understanding what is said, but even without spirit baptism one can sort out all it says from the rest of scripture, but it takes a very different attitude than calling God names just because of your own limited understanding...

as Jesus says, THIS particular adversary [satan] is THE final antichrist , THE satan who claims to be God and rules the world of men, uniting religion in worship of him as God and Christ -Rev 13:3-4, 2thess 2:4, Ezek 28- for which crime the punishment for a Jew is death ... Jesws would never accept this man as their Messiah were he not a Jew of the tribe of Judah as Jesus is ...

 

[fearfulseeker]

Does it really matter who he is, so much as what he does?

 

[stone]

I used to think that Satan was the Devil, because that is what I was taught, without ever actually studying the Bible to find out why, and whether or not it is true. I no longer believe that. Here's why...

Satan, in the OT, is nothing more than an angel of God. His name is not actually a name, but a title in Hebrew: Ha-SaTan. It means "the accuser, or the adversary." His job, his duty, is to find sinners, accuse them before God, and then God passes judgment. He follows God's orders, nothing more.

Satan is powerless to act without God's permission. Satan does not have godlike powers unto himself, otherwise there would be more than one god. No where in the OT is Satan accused of or implied to be a fallen angel, the devil, evil or anything else that Christianity has painted him to be. Judaism would agree with this statement, especially since the OT is their Bible, their history, their genealogy, and the basis of their laws.

Don't even try and say that Isaiah 14:12 points to the NT fall of Satan that is described. Isaiah 14:12 is talking about a Babylonian king (Nebuchadnezzar II) and if you read the entire chapter, you'll see that. Nor is Lucifer the name for Satan, because of this same chapter/verse if taken in context. Learn to read the Bible in context.

The NT writers seem to have this gnostic dualism approach. There's good, so there MUST be evil! They made Satan public enemy #1, and gave people an excuse for why bad things happen. Bah!

We have too much mythology surrounding Satan thanks to Dante's Inferno, Paradise Lost, numerous books, movies, bad teachings, and of course the KJV errors in translation/interpretation. People can't seem to separate fact from fiction.

1. God is the only god. He is all powerful. The angels serve Him.
2. Satan is subject to God's will and authority. If Satan were free to act on his own, and has godlike powers, this contradicts #1.

They are the same.... hideous, vile, stench of a creature.

 

[strangertoo]

They are the same.... hideous, vile, stench of a creature.

rather ,God says Satan is beautiful ... and appears to man as an angel of light surrounded by men putting on a world-convincing act of being holy ... one does not become the Antichrist by being vile...

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
...
Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[strangertoo]

Does it really matter who he is, so much as what he does?

who he is , THE adversary, and final antichrist , tempter of all men, even Christ, IS what he does...

but if one does not realise his beauty, that as the other covering cherub at the throne of God he appears to men to be God and willbe worshipped as God-with-us, Emanuael, worldwide -Rev 13:3-4- then one will end up worshipping him as Christ returned with billions of others adn will not be saved at Jesus' return...

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Some believe that the devil is metaphorical for evil and sin. Humans are inherently evil, and it is far easier to live in sin and not care, than it is to walk the straight and narrow path. Think of the devil as if saying "the nature of evil is upon you." Ex. "He is possessed by the devil" is the same as saying "he is possessed by evil."

I've come to beleive this to be true.

Does it really matter who he is, so much as what he does?

If the above is true, I think it is important to understand the truth. Because I tend to believe that the strength of truth in the Bible is in its allegorical more than its literal meaning, I'm also coming to the conclusion that mystery Babylon--especially in comparing the way she is represented from the OT prophets to those in Revelation--is a description of the human heart. It seems most folks can't admit this about themselves, which--if true--makes the refusal to admit definitely important on a spiritual level.

 

[Zadok7000]

Jesus differs in opinion on this one :-

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

End of thread. It's an absurd premise actually.

 

[strangertoo]

"Some believe that the devil is metaphorical for evil and sin. Humans are inherently evil, and it is far easier to live in sin and not care, than it is to walk the straight and narrow path. Think of the devil as if saying "the nature of evil is upon you." Ex. "He is possessed by the devil" is the same as saying "he is possessed by evil."

I've come to beleive this to be true.

as Jesus states , the devil really manifests as the man who finally ruiles all mankind, persuading all the world to worship him as God -Rev 13:3-4 ... thus making up beliefs for oneself is not very helpful when discussing this biblical character , one must read the whole scripture to understand God's whole use of Satan the man , in particular Ezekiel 28, 2Thess 2, Matthew 24, Rev 13,... else one will just follow the herd to one's destruction with him -Matt 7:13

Jesus and the saints have PROVED that man isn't inherently evil by being Loving to all , ceasing and avoiding all sin in their lives so as to be acceptable to God because they do not ABUSE folks with sin of any kind... this is ALL God requires before teaching all Truth and it is only required because otherwise facing God would be certain death [as indeed evidenced in scripture ... but indeed the shame to oneself of spirit baptism is hard enough after ceasing all sin one ACXKNOWLEDGES because teh FIRST Truth God gives is the Truth about oneself, ALL one's sins... so one can repent fully and become Loving, not an abuser of fellow man any more ...

Does it really matter who he is, so much as what he does?
​

If the above is true, I think it is important to understand the truth. Because I tend to believe that the strength of truth in the Bible is in its allegorical more than its literal meaning,

As scholars have long pointed out there are MANY levels of meaning in scripture , way beyond the sophistication of even Shakespeare ...as one studies it with God to understand what questions to ask God then the deeper Truths become apparent , what it is really about, the depth is more than a man could plumet in a lifetime without help from God ...the easy way is simply to stop sinning as God and Jesus command... far from being impossible , this is the ONLY way God and Jesus say one can know them and the Truth about life... it is rather absurd to suggest God is disingenuous to command that men stp sinning and Love one another in order to know teh Truth and Love one another instead of living like beasts , inhuman beasts of sin against themselves and God and Jesus ...

I'm also coming to the conclusion that mystery Babylon--especially in comparing the way she is represented from the OT prophets to those in Revelation--is a description of the human heart.

Jesus tells us who is mystery Babylon , it is Jerusalem , representing the Jewish hierarchy [Jesus has no hierarchy in his saints and leads them as equals , as their servant in all things] ... Jesus is well aware that Satan will manifest as a Jew in order to be accepted as the Jewish Messiah, but is in fact the final antichrist before destruction of this earth and heavens in the wrath of God against ALL still sinners -Matt 7:13- destruction is the only way to the kingdm come for ALL sinners, frees them from sin so God can at last baptise all flesh as promised -Joel 2:28 , all being freed from hell [Rev 20:13] to be judged by works in the Loving kingdm come of Jesus Christ in the new earth... so again it is more sense to read about scriptural things than make up your own stories...

It seems most folks can't admit this about themselves, which--if true--makes the refusal to admit definitely important on a spiritual level.

denial is the cause of sin , but you too deny taht you can Love and not abuse others with sin... God never gives up persuading you to try Love instead , and as Jesus says: everyone will accept him as king in the end, even Satan at the last is translated to spirit having fully renounced all sin and turned to Love after everyone deserts him in the final baptism of fire in the lake of fire...

 

[timewerx]

Does it really matter who he is, so much as what he does?

Yes because his followers look very much like him! You meet his followers everyday on the streets. So it's important to know who he really is...

...And he is the "man of this world"

 

[he-man]

End of thread. It's an absurd premise actually.

People who quote this must be unaware of what future tense means.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

So it is also just as absurb to quote Isiah 14:12 and Ezekial 28 which is directed to the King of Babylon and the King of Tyrus. Babylon [from Assyrian "gate of the gods"].

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
Devil in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ashdowne, ‘‘AN INQUIRY INTO THE Scripture Meaning of the Word SATAN, AND ITS SYNONIMOUS TERMS, The DEVIL, or the ADVERSARY, and the WICKED-ONE’, page 40, 1794

In 1737 Sykes published ‘An enquiry into the meaning of demoniacks in the New Testament’ going further than Joseph Mede’s exposition of the ‘Doctrine of Demons’ by rejecting any belief in the existence of demons and regarding those possessed as simply suffering from mental illness, as the later work of Dr. Richard Mead. He also rejected the devil as a supernatural evil being, taking the allegory argument of John Epps.

The most infamous of Epps' unorthodox views regards the devil (1842), though he was one of a long line of Dissenters to take this view stretching back through Simpson (1804), Lardner (1742), Sykes (1737), going back to the Dutch Anabaptist David Joris (1540).[2] According to Epps, references in the Bible to the devil and Satan are, in the main, to be understood as personifications of the lustful principle in man .

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23

It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil

 

[strangertoo]

End of thread. It's an absurd premise actually.

yes, but it has raised many other problems men have by not rading the scripture about Satan for themselves, trusting to the words of sinners who work for Satan as if they could be trusted not to lie ...

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

many do not realise that the ONLY thing that prevents God teaching them all Truth is their sin , but Satan has craeted what will be a world religion of sinners with aim of all the world worshipping him as the Chrsist, as God incarnate -Rev 13:3-4 ... Jesus says it will happen, the whole world united worshipping a fake god whom God will have killed after three and a half years of his tyrannical rule over all mankind [NWO? , 'Gnostics' believe Satan is a god as much as God is] ...Jesus' kingdom he says is NOT here but in the new earth after destruction of thsi earth and heavens and ALL still sinners by time of Jesus' return... few find the way of Love[Matt 7:13-14] , almost all die to free them of sin [Rom 6:7] BECAUSE they will not stop themselves following the evil ways of lying of this world's politics and religions...

Proof if required , just look at DIVISION of religion, how can that be ONE Truth of God ... but uniting religion in worship of Satan [rev 13:3-4] in the name of world peace and unity leads only to totalitarian tyranny ... men do not put up with Satan as king of the world for more than three and a half years before conspiring to slay him... but then Jesus returns to take the few who truly Love all, the saints who stopped sinning , and that leaves mankind in the worst time ever [Matt 24] because they are still not raedy to stop sinning and Love one another ... wars, starvation,pestilence and finally vulcanism [blotting out the sun] finish off all sinner mankind ... God begins in teh new earth with the few saints and Jesus building the perfect kingdom of Love for a thousand years before the billions of this earth are resurrected freed of sin by death [Rom 6:7] to try again to Love [on pain of a second death for sin] ... all are baptsed of the spirit now they are freed of sin by death -Joel 2:28 and all are freed of hell, even Satan[rev 20:13] toward salvation of billions by WORKS of Love in the Loving life of the new earth kingdom come -Rev 7:9-10... and they clearly were all destroyed in this earth -Matt 7:13 ... the spirit of a man though is of God , not subject to destruction :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.