satan / devil / etc

[stranger]

bump !!!!!!!

 

[visionary]

How is the Judaic understanding about what happens to HaSatan when his job of being an adversary/accuser is over?

 

[philemon]

i have read some threads on various forums about the topic of satan / devil / lucifer, which have me puzzled as to who or what he / it is.

please can people give me some answers as to origins and function.

many thanks

Steve

I believe the most revealing expose of Satan is found in the Book of Job. He appears to be a very real entity, not just some idea, and you will find direct dialogues between him and God in that book. It illuminates exactly what kind of character Satan is and why he is considered the Accuser. It reveals and illustrates his nature of evil in that book.

 

[philemon]

If one reads the Zohar, one finds that demons are far from being angelic beings under the control of G-d.

Fremen

This is interesting, can you expand further on this please?

 

[TheRabbi]

Yeah, I'd like to hear this one myself.

 

[stranger]

I believe the most revealing expose of Satan is found in the Book of Job. He appears to be a very real entity, not just some idea, and you will find direct dialogues between him and God in that book. It illuminates exactly what kind of character Satan is and why he is considered the Accuser. It reveals and illustrates his nature of evil in that book.

As I pointed out above , it is remarkable that Satan is the prodigal son of God [created as 'Lucufer' , angel of 'light-giving'] and appears when God summons the sons of God , on two occasions mantioned in Job

men do not then realise how important Satan is , that he is the left hand [sinister!] covering cherub at the evry throne of God until cats into the earth as a man to suffer death [as did the right-hand , but uincreated, covering cherub, as Jesus the Mesisah, the Christ]

Thus Satan appears as the antichrist, the very image of a saviour to most men , but in place of the real Christ and established by religion of sinners .... the seal of god being ceasing of iniquity :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Thus we already have religions of a billion and more sinners who name the name of Christ bit have not departed iniquity which shows how close we are to the antichrist's brief rule of all the earth [Rev 13:3-7]

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The world of course believes that it worships God in christianity, but His seal is not upon sinners as the saint says... does one then believe sinners or the saint ?

Fortuanately the scripture is extensive and backs up the saint throughout , else no-oe would believe the saint despite vain vagye commitments in religion to 'belief ofg the scripture'... clearly the scripture says otherwise than does mainline christianity about sinners and about Satan ...

And the ame Lucifer is not in vain either because God sees light even in the darkness of evil :-

Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

What does this signify? ... simpoly that the failure of satan to find another way of life other than love is JUST AS IMPORTANT as the proof by Jesus that the way of love WORKS... the two together show that love is the ONLY way , neither alone is complete glory for God... thus Satan's role is just as important to God's glory as Jesus' role, neither completes the glory of God alone ... light out of darknes, God USES evil for good in the end, because evil shows that God was right by its failure to work...

Now men are not yet convoinced that evil does not work, they even allow it in their religion ... but God is clear about this, men are wrong, Jesus has said that he will take no sinners with him at his return, that he never knew sinners despite the claim of religion that sinners can know Jesus...

thua again, who is right, Jesus or the sinners who run religion in his place ? :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

​

 

[philemon]

Jesus has said that he will take no sinners with him at his return, that he never knew sinners despite the claim of religion that sinners can know Jesus...

He doesn't say that at all. The ones He's speaking to on His left-hand side appear to be hypocrites.

But Jesus DIED for sinners. Repentant sinners can and DO know Jesus.

To suggest that Jesus doesn't forgive and save sinners is not the Gospel. We are implored to repent of our sins and receive His forgiveness and Salvation. That message is for and to "sinners."

The Pharisees that Jesus rebuked didn't believe that they were sinners, and that's why the prostitutes, tax collectors, and the like were entering the Kingdom ahead of them.

 

[philemon]

And the ame Lucifer is not in vain either because God sees light even in the darkness of evil

I don't know why you keep referring to Lucifer.

We're talking about Satan, who happens to be God's adversary, not His light-bearer.

The ONLY Light of God is Jesus Christ.

 

[philemon]

And the ame Lucifer is not in vain either because God sees light even in the darkness of evil

There is no light in evil.

Isaiah 5:20 - Woe to those who call evil good and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness --

 

[stranger]

He doesn't say that at all. The ones He's speaking to on His left-hand side appear to be hypocrites.

But Jesus DIED for sinners. Repentant sinners can and DO know Jesus.

To suggest that Jesus doesn't forgive and save sinners is not the Gospel. We are implored to repent of our sins and receive His forgiveness and Salvation. That message is for and to "sinners."

The Pharisees that Jesus rebuked didn't believe that they were sinners, and that's why the prostitutes, tax collectors, and the like were entering the Kingdom ahead of them.

The scripture says that you are mistaken, and my guess is that ironically you are listenming to sinners instead of taking this scripture seriously :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. ....

note Rev 7:3-4... those FEW who find the narrow strait way in this life are sealed in ceasing sin ... the many saved afterward -Rev 7:9-10- are saved by WORKS , not by grace :-

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Again the saints are saints duruing life, they cease to sin and perfect their love in trial, jst as Jesus was tried and passed the trial, this is baptism of fire , the perfection of love, the cessation of sin in a sinner ...

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

One does not continue to sin if one is truly repentent of all sin, but sinners do continue to sin.... Jesus is not the lord of sinners because they do not obey his cammandment to love, but continue to braek it in sinning

 

[stranger]

There is no light in evil.

Isaiah 5:20 - Woe to those who call evil good and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness --

The scripoture does not call evil good, nor good evil, and I have not either... you are talking irrelevances that have no connection to what has been pointed out in scripture :-

Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

God does not say that evil is good or that good is evil but that the darkness shines as the day, provides light ... the light fromm the day, from jesus , is that LOVE works, ceasing to sin WORKS and is the foundation of God :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The complement to this is that the darkness hows by its FAILURE that they is no OTHER way than love ... thus the light comes from the darkness too, eveil shows that there is no other way than ceasing to sin, by the failure of evil in the end...

 

[philemon]

The scripture says that you are mistaken, and my guess is that ironically you are listenming to sinners instead of taking this scripture seriously :-

note Rev 7:3-4... those FEW who find the narrow strait way in this life are sealed in ceasing sin ... the many saved afterward -Rev 7:9-10- are saved by WORKS , not by grace :-

Again the saints are saints duruing life, they cease to sin and perfect their love in trial, jst as Jesus was tried and passed the trial, this is baptism of fire , the perfection of love, the cessation of sin in a sinner ...



One does not continue to sin if one is truly repentent of all sin, but sinners do continue to sin.... Jesus is not the lord of sinners because they do not obey his cammandment to love, but continue to braek it in sinning

I didn't even suggest that a saint is supposed to continue in sin. I just disagreed with you about "sinners" not being able to come to know the Lord, because Jesus died for sinners, so that sinners could be forgiven. That's why the prostitutes, tax collectors and the like were entering the Kingdom ahead of the Pharisees, because they were repenting, not thinking they were without sin like the Pharisees did.

It is the Holy Spirit who works in sanctification.

 

[philemon]

The scripoture does not call evil good, nor good evil, and I have not either... you are talking irrelevances that have no connection to what has been pointed out in scripture :-

Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

God does not say that evil is good or that good is evil but that the darkness shines as the day, provides light ... the light fromm the day, from jesus , is that LOVE works, ceasing to sin WORKS and is the foundation of God :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The complement to this is that the darkness hows by its FAILURE that they is no OTHER way than love ... thus the light comes from the darkness too, eveil shows that there is no other way than ceasing to sin, by the failure of evil in the end...

You said that God sees light even in the darkness of evil. But the scriptures don't suggest that.

And I disagree with you about the nature of evil, it is the light of Jesus Christ which shines against the darkness, not light coming from the darkness because the darkness is under judgement.

John 3:19-21

"And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Jesus IS the Light.

John 8:12

"Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

 

[stranger]

I don't know why you keep referring to Lucifer.

We're talking about Satan, who happens to be God's adversary, not His light-bearer.

The ONLY Light of God is Jesus Christ.

Does this sound like Jesus Christ :-

• Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Exek 286 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Again does Jesus stand at the left hand of God as covering cherub , or is this talking about that cherub on the left-hand who looks like the Christ and appears like the christ, but is in fact the 'antichristos' , in place of Chrsit, who misleads the whole world through religion :-

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Again, does Satan appear to men as an angel of light with seeminglly righteous ministers in a chuch which says it is holy and of God :-

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Simply look at the division of religion and see if it even could be the one truth of God... if not of God then of Satan, that is ALL divided religion, there is but one truth of God... can divided religion satnd by the power of Satan's propaganda, ... it cannot, but that is the fate of religion that billions believe, over a billion of those call themselves christians biut are not united in one belief but divided right down to individual level, thus led by Satan in sin, not by the spirit of truth in one truh of God and the seal of God, departing from all sin :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Satan is here then, in the very heart of christianity already, deceiving men into not following the scripture but following the words of sinners appointed as priests by other sinners.... all God's prtiests are saints sealed into not sinning and all His congregation are these saints, there are no sinners in teh congregation of God... so who runs the congregations of sinners led by sinners but Satan himself as their lord? .. Divided religion is the sign one cannot ignore, but even when religion unites in one belief in the antichrist, it will still be of Satan... and one's only defence against being deluded is the scripture unless one is one of the very few who find the strait narrow way of sainthood in thise earth, sealed by God not to sin any more....

 

[stranger]

You said that God sees light even in the darkness of evil. But the scriptures don't suggest that.

No I didn't, try reading it again, the light that comes from darkness is the defeat of darkness, but darkness cannot be defeated unless it fiirst exists [and men suffer because it exists]

And I disagree with you about the nature of evil, it is the light of Jesus Christ which shines against the darkness, not light coming from the darkness because the darkness is under judgement.

Jesus indeed shines in his own right by showing that perfect love is the way to God ... darkness shines in its failure to attrct any men in the end, thus showing that no OTHER way than love works.... only both together impart the fuill glory of God , not only that love works, but that evil fails to find any alternative way than love... evil thus only imparts the light of truth by its demise ... it is not the light even though satan tries and succeeds to lead almost all men his way of sin {Rev 13:3-7] ... the true light fronm darkness is only when evil fails completely and Satan is left alone reflecting that he never was a god

Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Ezekiel 32:10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall.

John 3:19-21 "And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Jesus IS the Light.

John 8:12

"Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

I am not in the least contesting that Jesus is the light, only pointing out that the defeat of Satan is just as much light as the redemption of all creation through perfect love which Jesus represents... thus there is light from the darkness too, as the scripture states, and that light is alike to the light from jesus because both together prove the glorry of god which is the whole of light ... Jesus proves that love works, but does not proove that no other way might work... Satan's failure , despite beng created perfect, to find any other way than perfect love , shows that there is no other way... thus both are necessary to the proof that Gd is right to all creation... both are light, but one is from the failure of darkness, one from continual light

Psalms 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

That is not saying that light is the same as dark, they are opposite, only that God derives light from both, so they are alike in doing that for God, Sata is the left-hand covering cherub at the throne of power then, Jesus at the righthand ... between the two is the shole power of the truth of God that perfect love is not just a way to god, but the ONLY way... Satan is the one who through darkness failing proves love to be the ONLY way... Jesus only shows that perfect love works, not that it is the only way...

 

[stranger]

I didn't even suggest that a saint is supposed to continue in sin. I just disagreed with you about "sinners" not being able to come to know the Lord, because Jesus died for sinners, so that sinners could be forgiven. That's why the prostitutes, tax collectors and the like were entering the Kingdom ahead of the Pharisees, because they were repenting, not thinking they were without sin like the Pharisees did.

It is the Holy Spirit who works in sanctification.

Jesus died to save sinners, but he died to save them by their becoming saints , ceasing to sin :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

To do that God takes but a few from this world, few find the narrow strait way :-

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The MANY go through destruction in death by the broad way to sainthood , but they are saved afterward , not at Jesus' return , as Jesus details :-

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Thus the 144,000 are indeed the few and are taken first simply because God requires His perfect royal priesthood at the beginning of the kingdom come on the earth :-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

But it is NOT this earth, as Jesus has said :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

Thus we know the many of all nations, the gentile siners and the sinners of Israel , are saved afterward in the righteous new earth, after the second resurrection [of the unjsut, of sinners] and before or at judgment day, the many dwelling as saints in perfect love in the new earth after the second resurrection, and ruled by Jesus as king over all the king-priests of Israel whom God chose from the beginning to show He could choose from the beginning :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Men then are mostly not saved in this earth, but only a few for now ... religion has it wrong and scripture shows that , men live as saints in the new earth after the second resurrevction and so are forgiven through works , only the few need to be saved by grace :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Again this is why the new covenant of grace is only with the two didbvided kingdoms of the nation of Israel, named in it as the only onees receiving its grace [Heb 8:8-12] ... as it says, only those whose fathers broke the old covenant are now accepted as the people of God ... worth reading what God says about grace then, cos' most men are saved by works after death, not at Jesus' return, and the scripture says so, but religious tradition disagrees... one has to decide then whether to believe on god or on sinners in religion... not a hard choice, but one almost all men get wrong in this world....

 

[Untamed Fire]

If one reads the Zohar, one finds that demons are far from being angelic beings under the control of G-d.

Fremen

Are you talking about the qlippoth (sp?) or something else? (sorry if this is a dumb question... )

 

[Untamed Fire]

As I pointed out above , it is remarkable that Satan is the prodigal son of God [created as 'Lucufer' , angel of 'light-giving'] and appears when God summons the sons of God , on two occasions mantioned in Job

men do not then realise how important Satan is , that he is the left hand [sinister!] covering cherub at the evry throne of God until cats into the earth as a man to suffer death [as did the right-hand , but uincreated, covering cherub, as Jesus the Mesisah, the Christ]

Thus Satan appears as the antichrist, the very image of a saviour to most men , but in place of the real Christ and established by religion of sinners .... the seal of god being ceasing of iniquity :-
Thus we already have religions of a billion and more sinners who name the name of Christ bit have not departed iniquity which shows how close we are to the antichrist's brief rule of all the earth [Rev 13:3-7]

The world of course believes that it worships God in christianity, but His seal is not upon sinners as the saint says... does one then believe sinners or the saint ?

Fortuanately the scripture is extensive and backs up the saint throughout , else no-oe would believe the saint despite vain vagye commitments in religion to 'belief ofg the scripture'... clearly the scripture says otherwise than does mainline christianity about sinners and about Satan ...

And the ame Lucifer is not in vain either because God sees light even in the darkness of evil :-
What does this signify? ... simpoly that the failure of satan to find another way of life other than love is JUST AS IMPORTANT as the proof by Jesus that the way of love WORKS... the two together show that love is the ONLY way , neither alone is complete glory for God... thus Satan's role is just as important to God's glory as Jesus' role, neither completes the glory of God alone ... light out of darknes, God USES evil for good in the end, because evil shows that God was right by its failure to work...

Now men are not yet convoinced that evil does not work, they even allow it in their religion ... but God is clear about this, men are wrong, Jesus has said that he will take no sinners with him at his return, that he never knew sinners despite the claim of religion that sinners can know Jesus...

thua again, who is right, Jesus or the sinners who run religion in his place ? :-

​

this is excellent. thank you for this very DEEP post. real MEAT.

 

[stranger]

I didn't even suggest that a saint is supposed to continue in sin. I just disagreed with you about "sinners" not being able to come to know the Lord, because Jesus died for sinners, so that sinners could be forgiven. That's why the prostitutes, tax collectors and the like were entering the Kingdom ahead of the Pharisees, because they were repenting, not thinking they were without sin like the Pharisees did.

It is the Holy Spirit who works in sanctification.

Exactly, sinners become saints by sanctification by the holy spirit ... but God only takes 144,000 saints at Jesus return because He needs only that number as kings under Jesus in the kingdom... and they minister as perfect priests too... but the many they minister to can only be the many of this earth who remain sinners to death in this earth, who were not sealed to beome saints in this earth, who did not depart from iniquity before death :- 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Thus the few only find the narrow strait way now, as the scripture says, but the many are saved too, just afterward, even though they go by the broad way through destruction in death, God still resurrectes all from hell, and has promised to baptise all men with His spirit [Joel 2:28] to know all truth[John 16:13] Thus we know from the fact that most men dies sinners without knowing all truth that the many Jesus says are saved are saved after the second resurrection [Rev 7:9-10] So mainline religion has it wrong , and Jesus has it right, the many are not saved now , the few are saved now [because God only needs a few to be kings, not everyone can be king!] ... the many are saved by being righetoius as saints in the new earth then, as Peter reveals :- 2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[visionary]

Covering arch-angels like Michael and Gabriel are the ones who are one each side of the throne. Lucifer lost his spot as a covering angel when he lead the rebellion in heaven.

Satan has never gotten to sit on the throne, something he craves. Even his subjects will have to give up the thrones that they have sat on all through history.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Eze 26:16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.

Da 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

The Thrones are where Yeshua, the Son and God, the Father sit, front and center.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

There will be other thrones set up later.

Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

which has always been the promise ...

Ps 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.