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Before going further on the issue, I do hope it is understood in advance that I do not come into the Prebysterian or Calvinistic world unfamilar. I went to a Reformed Christian High School growing up and have many friends/family from that background I am good friends with - more shared elsewhere in places such as here /here/here (specifically on how my Jewish side caused me to not have real problems with the imagery in Orthodoxy when seeing scripture) and Orthodoxy and Calvinism in Dialogue - if anyone wishes to keep up with where I am coming from and why I turned to the Eastern side of things. My journey into Orthodoxy has been a long one but one I did so after much study and consideration - and yet with that in mind it is not as if the people in the Reformed world I grew up with I no longer appreciate. Many PRESBYTERIANS I am still very glad for - such as Kenneth E. Bailey (due to his Middle Eastern perspective) and others.
That said...
Came across a presentation by one of my favorite theologians who I read on growing up, known as Sam Storms - as Sam served as interim pastor of Dallas Independent Presbyterian Church (1974-1977). Recently, he had an excellent presentation on the issue of Futurism vs. Ammenlenialism and I really enjoyed the way that he broke things down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W75bzrvJtLs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SpOBSkIjHQ
Does anyone here agree with the eschatology that Storms presents in his teaching? I thought it was a very wonderful way of placing things when it comes to seeing how the End Times was meant to be seen as - in light of the fact that so many seem to have a very dismal view of the End Times that does not seem to give much hope as it concerns the working of Christ in the world.
I ask because in the world we live in I've grown up seeing proponents of a fearful and hyper vigilant eschatology that appears to be toxic to the gospel itself. ...and yet, to be fair, what's interesting is that there are even proponents of how horrific things will be in the end that have noted how amazing they will be as well. ...and they have often said that the Church needs to do a better job of showing the ways that we're to be representing for Christ in his REDEEMPTION of the world which we play a part in.
For reference and more on what I am speaking on, one can go see the author in A Pattern For Nations | K V Ministries and Apostolic Eschatology | K V Ministries. Although I don't agree with all things from the aformentioned author (or the camp he hails from within the Third Wave/Neo-Charismatic world - with others speaking on it thankfully as seen in Kris Vallotton on Becoming an Incarnation through Holy Communion | CrossWise ), some of what he noted were things I grew up with and I was blessed hearing his presentations on the matter when it came to multiple scriptures that people leave out in regards to the many beautiful things happening for believers in the End Times....especially when seeing Isaiah in his prophecies on how the nations would respond before the Messiah arrived. And as noted elsewhere, I have often find myself seeing merit in views such as Apostolic Premillennialism”..different from other forms of pre-millennialism (and based more so on the Christ Victor view) by it being more optimistic with the end times — more focused on the Apostolic character of the church that is supposed to be coming. ...and on the same token, the Christus Victor view is separate from that/sufficient by itself and what I think should take prominence since it made a world of difference when it came to knowing how they interacted with the world...knowing the enemy was defeated and thus we have a job to do.
The book by N.T Wright called Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church is truly one of the best reads on the issue that I've come across. Still trying to work my way through it - and in it, Wright challenges the notion of “going to heaven when you die” and spending an eternity in some bodiless future. For if this was the case, Wright says, “then what’s the fuss about putting things right in the present world?” - and yet if you know that Christ will return to conquer the world one day, you should be energized to make a difference in THIS world today....
For some quotes from the work:
Sam Storms seems to be one of the more calm and sensible voices present when it comes to the discussion of eschatology - AND he does a good job harmonizing in many respects what the Orthodox Church has said at points. As said elsewhere:
That said...
Came across a presentation by one of my favorite theologians who I read on growing up, known as Sam Storms - as Sam served as interim pastor of Dallas Independent Presbyterian Church (1974-1977). Recently, he had an excellent presentation on the issue of Futurism vs. Ammenlenialism and I really enjoyed the way that he broke things down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W75bzrvJtLs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SpOBSkIjHQ
Does anyone here agree with the eschatology that Storms presents in his teaching? I thought it was a very wonderful way of placing things when it comes to seeing how the End Times was meant to be seen as - in light of the fact that so many seem to have a very dismal view of the End Times that does not seem to give much hope as it concerns the working of Christ in the world.
I ask because in the world we live in I've grown up seeing proponents of a fearful and hyper vigilant eschatology that appears to be toxic to the gospel itself. ...and yet, to be fair, what's interesting is that there are even proponents of how horrific things will be in the end that have noted how amazing they will be as well. ...and they have often said that the Church needs to do a better job of showing the ways that we're to be representing for Christ in his REDEEMPTION of the world which we play a part in.
For reference and more on what I am speaking on, one can go see the author in A Pattern For Nations | K V Ministries and Apostolic Eschatology | K V Ministries. Although I don't agree with all things from the aformentioned author (or the camp he hails from within the Third Wave/Neo-Charismatic world - with others speaking on it thankfully as seen in Kris Vallotton on Becoming an Incarnation through Holy Communion | CrossWise ), some of what he noted were things I grew up with and I was blessed hearing his presentations on the matter when it came to multiple scriptures that people leave out in regards to the many beautiful things happening for believers in the End Times....especially when seeing Isaiah in his prophecies on how the nations would respond before the Messiah arrived. And as noted elsewhere, I have often find myself seeing merit in views such as Apostolic Premillennialism”..different from other forms of pre-millennialism (and based more so on the Christ Victor view) by it being more optimistic with the end times — more focused on the Apostolic character of the church that is supposed to be coming. ...and on the same token, the Christus Victor view is separate from that/sufficient by itself and what I think should take prominence since it made a world of difference when it came to knowing how they interacted with the world...knowing the enemy was defeated and thus we have a job to do.
The book by N.T Wright called Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church is truly one of the best reads on the issue that I've come across. Still trying to work my way through it - and in it, Wright challenges the notion of “going to heaven when you die” and spending an eternity in some bodiless future. For if this was the case, Wright says, “then what’s the fuss about putting things right in the present world?” - and yet if you know that Christ will return to conquer the world one day, you should be energized to make a difference in THIS world today....
For some quotes from the work:
“Jesus's resurrection is the beginning of God's new project not to snatch people away from earth to heaven but to colonize earth with the life of heaven. That, after all, is what the Lord's Prayer is about.”
“Note, though, something else of great significance about the whole Christian theology of resurrection, ascension, second coming, and hope. This theology was born out of confrontation with the political authorities, out of the conviction that Jesus was already the true Lord of the world who would one day be manifested as such.
“Note, though, something else of great significance about the whole Christian theology of resurrection, ascension, second coming, and hope. This theology was born out of confrontation with the political authorities, out of the conviction that Jesus was already the true Lord of the world who would one day be manifested as such.
Sam Storms seems to be one of the more calm and sensible voices present when it comes to the discussion of eschatology - AND he does a good job harmonizing in many respects what the Orthodox Church has said at points. As said elsewhere:
Gxg (G²);65187865 said:Eschatology makes a world of difference, IMHO, when it comes to the issue of how one understands the Church Militant and struggle with Christ. For there are many schools of thought that see parallel dynamics when it comes to the Church Triumphant being HERE and still YET to come when it comes to the future intersecting with the past.....what has already occurred from God's perspective playing out in our time frame.
And for others, it's really not a matter of Christ lied since there were always various ways in which Christ was interpreted when it came to the way the Church Militant would be present. Many tend to have a view of Church Militant from a Futurist perspective - that all things must end at some point for the Church before Christ comes back - while others have a Partial Preterist perspective, that many things have already occurred and were not a clear-cut matter of "All saints disappear from the Earth - then Christ comes back." Some of this was discussed more in-depth elsewhere in #49
T.L. Frazier (an Orthodox Christian) made a solid case on the issue for not having a futurist perspective fully in one of the books he made - it's not partial-preterism per se so much as it's Amillennialism, which tends to carry partial-preterist tones in my opinion. It was a very compelling read, to be sure. It covers a broader spectrum of eschatological belief.... AND critiques (more accurately points out the lunacy of) some of the futurist nonsense that's been peddled the past half century, such as Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and the Left Behind series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins and then the second half of the book discusses the historic Christian views in contrast to the futurist views. For more, one can investigate the following:
From where I've come from, it used to be a matter of believing the Church HAD to be on the Earth in order for God to reach the World - and then, once it left (per the End Times mindset I had), then the world would crumble. But in studying more on the issue and seeing partial preterism, I've come to understand how much it was never limited to that view alone when it comes to the Church Militant - and how much we end up making literal stances from things that were never clear cut from Jesus. A Church Militant not being present doesn't mean the Visible Church was prevailed over anymore than a Church hidden by God from persecution/having to remain underground and thus unknown to many above ground has been prevailed over because others may not know about it - in both the case of a Church hidden from others to preserve it and a Church wiped out but still present in Christ, the Lord is triumphant....and God's timing is everything.
Gxg (G²);65326172 said:Fr. Thomas Hopko, a long time minister in the Orthodox Church, once presented what I think is probably on of the best message on fulfilled eschatology (similar to partial preterism...) and the Kingdom/Gospel narrative I have ever heard....in line with the "heaven now" view present throughout Orthodox theology.
Technically, his views were a fusion of both partial prêterism and idealism - as Partial Preterism has been present throughout Eastern Orthodox theology since the early church and dealing with the importance of the destruction of the Jewish temple, the meaning of the "end of the age" and why Christians should be troubled by efforts to rebuild a temple in Jerusalem or what the End Times may look like shouldn't be something believers need to be afraid of tackling - it's not stopping anyone from ultimately seeing that the Kingdom of God is triumphant TODAY.
....There have been Ice Ages, times where the Sun couldn't get through to many parts of the Earth (Volcanos/ash clouds making a difference at times) and other ecological disasters - and simply because those may be things we're not experiencing today doesn't mean it's automatically a matter of it not being able to occur again or happen on a wide scale/become something others should not have prepared for. Witnessing a time where things were drastically bad on the Earth didn't stop one from appreciating solid weather (just as meteorologists and scientists noting how the climate can alter don't automatically ignore the climate present or man being able to adapt) - and likewise, IMHO, it is the case that understanding/considering the idea of the Church not being present physically on the Earth isn't automatically a matter of the Kingdom of God not prevailing - seasons can change very quickly, but God's Kingdom never ends. Christ in His Church will ALWAYS be Triumphant - how that plays out on the Earth below (Church Militant) is not a matter anyone can know fully (and that includes the issue of what happens on the world we live in).
What is known is that Christ ultimately WINS in the end
Gxg (G²);65461756 said:Was very thankful for what was noted here, as seen in the following:
To understand eschatology we must begin not with the ‘last things’, but with the past. If eschatology is ultimately the coming of the Kingdom of God, then we must begin with the gospels, in which Christ proclaims that the Kingdom has arrived. This is illustrated in the miracles and exorcisms which Christ wrought. The kingdom of death and sickness was overthrown. And yet, Christ also speaks of a kingdom to come. He speaks also of His second coming and the last judgement. Herein lies the paradox of the Church in its eschatological dimension: the Kingdom of God has already arrived, and still it is yet to come. This is the basis of our understanding of the Church, of the Kingdom of God, of heaven and hell.
The Church is, in the words of Fr George Florovsky, “the image of eternity in time”. Thus it lives both in this age and in the age to come. The “eschatological” dimension of the Church begins with Christ’s Resurrection. This was the beginning of the end. The early Christians spoke of their living in “the last days”, not because they simply got it wrong, but because they understood that the age to come had already broken through in this present age because Christ had already raised human nature into the heights of heaven by His Resurrection and Ascension, and promised to return in glory.
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