Salvation Through Sanctification

[EmSw]

Since we were having decent discussions on this on a thread that was closed, I wanted to continue the thought on salvation through sanctification.

John Robie posted this in the other thread - "I've answered your questions. I think you are trying to filter them through your presuppositions and they aren't making sense.

And salvation isn't through sanctification. Sanctification is part of salvation, as I stated in my first post."

Even though John doesn't believe salvation is through sanctification, I will provide a passage which actually states it does.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I also provided a passage which states election is through sanctification.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

If anyone wants to continue our discussion, please feel free to do so.

 

[Steeno7]

Justification is Christ’s work for us. Sanctification is Christ’s work within us.

 

[EmSw]

Justification is Christ’s work for us. Sanctification is Christ’s work within us.

I have no doubt it is Christ working in us; however, if man doesn't do his part, he falls short of sanctification.

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

If man does not abstain from sexual immorality, he not only falls short of sanctification, he is also opposing God's will. And there are some who believe man cannot act against God's will.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I have no doubt it is Christ working in us; however, if man doesn't do his part, he falls short of sanctification.

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

If man does not abstain from sexual immorality, he not only falls short of sanctification, he is also opposing God's will. And there are some who believe man cannot act against God's will.

Sanctification, just like salvation in general is a many faceted process.

Part of that process is the Lord setting us aside by sealing us (sanctifying us) for good works which will follow. This takes place upon believing on Him as Savior. (This - as you should know by now is really basic stuff.)

Along the way in life there are changes in us as we and the Lord work out our salvation.

Salvation, in the comprehensive sense, is an ongoing process leading to final glorification. But it starts at a certain time when we are set aside (sanctified) for the good works to follow.

I can't believe you don't know these things.

Why don't you do us all a favor so we don't have to play games for page after page and finally get the thread shut down?

Just give us a big, clear example of how someones gets saved.

Let's say that Joe is not a believer. He's a sinner of course. But likely not the worst of the bunch.

He somehow becomes convinced that there is something to this "Jesus" stuff.

He comes to you to sort it all out.

Tell us how this salvation thing works. Exactly how does he get started and exactly how does he wind up in glory when he passes on?

That shouldn't be too hard for you. I manage it in the brief time I have with the Mormon boys when they show up on my doorstep.

Tell us about your religion and your hope of glory please.

Thanks.

 

[Steeno7]

I have no doubt it is Christ working in us; however, if man doesn't do his part, he falls short of sanctification.

1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

If man does not abstain from sexual immorality, he not only falls short of sanctification, he is also opposing God's will. And there are some who believe man cannot act against God's will.

Our "part" is to continue as we began with Christ, by faith.....and a man living by faith will not be led by Christ into sexual immorality.

 

[EmSw]

Our "part" is to continue as we began with Christ, by faith.....and a man living by faith will not be led by Christ into sexual immorality.

The passage says nothing about continuing by faith. It does say 'you SHOULD abstain from sexual immorality'. I know this is probably hard for some to grasp, but abstaining does depend upon each and every person.

Have you really thought about what you said about a man living by faith will not be led by Christ into sexual immorality? Sexual immorality is a very dire problem today, believers and unbelievers alike. Many men who live by faith have fallen into this trap. Many hide their desire of sexual immorality, many ignore it, and many think it is okay. It all starts in the heart. If a man ignores to cleanse his heart from this evil, it will remain.

 

[Steeno7]

The passage says nothing about continuing by faith. It does say 'you SHOULD abstain from sexual immorality'. I know this is probably hard for some to grasp, but abstaining does depend upon each and every person.

Have you really thought about what you said about a man living by faith will not be led by Christ into sexual immorality? Sexual immorality is a very dire problem today, believers and unbelievers alike. Many men who live by faith have fallen into this trap. Many hide their desire of sexual immorality, many ignore it, and many think it is okay. It all starts in the heart. If a man ignores to cleanse his heart from this evil, it will remain.

I can only conclude then that you think Christ is leading those who live by faith in Him to sin. God forbid!

 

[EmSw]

Sanctification, just like salvation in general is a many faceted process.

Part of that process is the Lord setting us aside by sealing us (sanctifying us) for good works which will follow. This takes place upon believing on Him as Savior. (This - as you should know by now is really basic stuff.)

I agree, sanctification is a process; however, the obligation and responsibility of this process lies with man. If man decides not to remove evil from his heart, the Lord will not interfere with man's will; man will continually indulge in his delight of evil. However, once man determines to follow the truth and rid his heart of evil, the Lord will not fail in to fighting evil for man.

A man can believe all he wants, but until he determines and chooses to rid evil from his heart, it will remain. This is called heeding, hearing, and obeying.

Along the way in life there are changes in us as we and the Lord work out our salvation.

Salvation, in the comprehensive sense, is an ongoing process leading to final glorification. But it starts at a certain time when we are set aside (sanctified) for the good works to follow.

Here is what Paul said in 2 Timothy 2 -

19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

Paul says for everyone who names Christ to depart from iniquity. I believe the church needs more people to heed these words.

Here is the crux of Paul's words - in a great house there are two types of vessels - those for honor and those for dishonor. Listen carefully what Paul says next. IF ANYONE CLEANSES HIMSELF, HE WILL BE A VESSEL FOR HONOR. A man who does not cleanse himself will not be a vessel for honor, pure and simple. Then Paul says if anyone cleanses himself, he will be a vessel for honor, SANCTIFIED and useful for the Master, PREPARED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK.

We should notice a couple of things here. If a man cleanses himself, he is then sanctified (pure, holy, set aside). And then he is prepared for every good work.

But it all starts with 'Let everyone who names the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY'.

I can't believe you don't know these things.

I believe what the Bible says, as I just gave.

Why don't you do us all a favor so we don't have to play games for page after page and finally get the thread shut down?

Why is it, when I give passages from the Bible, some think it is a game?

Just give us a big, clear example of how someones gets saved.

Let's say that Joe is not a believer. He's a sinner of course. But likely not the worst of the bunch.

He somehow becomes convinced that there is something to this "Jesus" stuff.

He comes to you to sort it all out.

What I said above will suffice.

Tell us how this salvation thing works. Exactly how does he get started and exactly how does he wind up in glory when he passes on?

That shouldn't be too hard for you. I manage it in the brief time I have with the Mormon boys when they show up on my doorstep.

Tell us about your religion and your hope of glory please.

Thanks.

Hear the gospel Jesus preached, heed the words of truth He gave, and obey them from the heart.
Genuinely repent of sins and turn to God. Cleanse your heart of iniquity, thus obtaining sanctification.
Do good works from a new heart appropriate to repentance. Stand fast, overcome, and persevere.

 

[EmSw]

I can only conclude then that you think Christ is leading those who live by faith in Him to sin. God forbid!

Have no fear, Jesus leads no one to sin. He is leading us to a holy and pure life, but only if that is our desire.

I wouldn't dare say Jesus leads a man to sin, nor have it fester in my mind. Man leads himself to sin; Jesus leads us out.

 

[Steeno7]

Have no fear, Jesus leads no one to sin. He is leading us to a holy and pure life, but only if that is our desire.

I wouldn't dare say Jesus leads a man to sin, nor have it fester in my mind. Man leads himself to sin; Jesus leads us out.

Then why would you say there are those who are living by faith in Christ who have fallen into that trap?

 

[EmSw]

Then why would you say there are those who are living by faith in Christ who have fallen into that trap?

Do you think every believer abstains from sexual immorality?

 

[Steeno7]

Do you think every believer abstains from sexual immorality?

I think every believer living by faith in Christ is.

 

[nobdysfool]

Do you think every believer abstains from sexual immorality?

Do you?

 

[EmSw]

Do you?

Yes, I choose to abstain. Yet, some choose to participate in sexual immorality.

 

[nobdysfool]

Seems to be a hot button with you, you keep bringing it up...

 

[EmSw]

Seems to be a hot button with you, you keep bringing it up...

Let stay on the subject please.

It was a hot button for Paul also.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Hear the gospel Jesus preached, heed the words of truth He gave, and obey them from the heart.
Genuinely repent of sins and turn to God. Cleanse your heart of iniquity, thus obtaining sanctification.
Do good works from a new heart appropriate to repentance. Stand fast, overcome, and persevere.

How successful do you have to be to "obtain sanctification"?

Is there an investigatory judgment in the end to see if you made it or what?

Is misrepresenting another Christian's beliefs on a par with participating in sexual immorality? What is the cut off exactly when a person has been saved?

Exactly when are you given to Christ by the Father? Does His promise to raise up all those given to Him by the Father become null and void if a guy looks at some inappropriate contentography?

At what point are you sealed with the Holy Spirit? Exactly when are you seated with Christ in Heaven? When do you become part of the "body of Christ?

I'm serious. I'm not just jerking you around. Lots of questions come to mind along these lines.

I'm just wondering at what point you are "saved" and "passed from death to life and will never come again into condemnation" in your system of salvation.

 

[EmSw]

How successful do you have to be to "obtain sanctification"?

I appreciate your questions Marvin. I can only give you what the Bible says.

2 Timothy 2:21
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

I guess it depends upon our desire to cleanse ourself and depart from iniquity. Once we have cleansed ourselves, then we will be a vessel for honor, we will then be sanctified, and we will then be useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

1 Thessalonians 4
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

Paul says the will of God, and our sanctification is for us to abstain from sexual immorality in these verses. Then he says, each of us should know how to possess our own vessel in sanctification and honor, and not in passion of lust. I would then say each of us should know 'how successful' we should be.

Is there an investigatory judgment in the end to see if you made it or what?

I would say a definite yes to searching our heart to see what lies within. If we do not search our heart and cast away the evil, God says he will search our heart. One may refrain from searching his heart in this life, but God will definitely search our hearts to expose the evil within.

Is misrepresenting another Christian's beliefs on a par with participating in sexual immorality? What is the cut off exactly when a person has been saved?

What would hurt you the most - to have one misrepresent your beliefs or have one commit sexual immorality with a loved one of yours?

The cut off date would have to be death. We have our life on this earth to examine ourselves, to ask the Lord concerning any evil within, and seeking His guidance and help to remove any evil within. After death, this is not possible.

Exactly when are you given to Christ by the Father? Does His promise to raise up all those given to Him by the Father become null and void if a guy looks at some inappropriate contentography?

I will have to quote Jesus here. In Matthew 11:28, Jesus said, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." A person is given to Christ when he comes to Him.

Again, I will have give you Paul's words concerning inappropriate contentography (sexual immorality). He said each of us SHOULD know how to possess our own vessel in sanctification. If this is what a person has learned from the Bible, I would say it's okay. However, we are told the opposite, that is, to abstain from sexual immorality. I wonder, why would a person want to test the Lord and look at inappropriate contentography. A person who continually looks at inappropriate contentography is taking delight in the evil in his heart, while shaking his fist at God and defying His word.

However, the Lord is merciful. We can't wear out His patience with us.

At what point are you sealed with the Holy Spirit? Exactly when are you seated with Christ in Heaven? When do you become part of the "body of Christ?

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

This comes after hearing the word of truth and believed it. However, does a person believe really believe His word if he continually commits sin against God and the Spirit? If the word of truth says to abstain from sexual immorality, when is it a person believes this? Would you say a person believes this if he continues in sexual immorality?

We have read this in 2 Timothy 2:19 -
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

If you were to visit heaven now, would you see people sitting next to Christ enjoying inappropriate contentography? Would you see them lusting after each other? Would you hear them expelling foul and grotesque sexual language?

I'm serious. I'm not just jerking you around. Lots of questions come to mind along these lines.

I believe you are serious Marvin. And I am certainly serious myself.

I'm just wondering at what point you are "saved" and "passed from death to life and will never come again into condemnation" in your system of salvation.

Jesus said this in John 5:24 -
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

One must hear His word and believe in Him Who sent Jesus. Believing is not just assent, but actually acting upon His word and living it daily.

We also have this in 1 John 3:14 -
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I appreciate your questions Marvin. I can only give you what the Bible says.

2 Timothy 2:21
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

I guess it depends upon our desire to cleanse ourself and depart from iniquity. Once we have cleansed ourselves, then we will be a vessel for honor, we will then be sanctified, and we will then be useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

1 Thessalonians 4
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

Paul says the will of God, and our sanctification is for us to abstain from sexual immorality in these verses. Then he says, each of us should know how to possess our own vessel in sanctification and honor, and not in passion of lust. I would then say each of us should know 'how successful' we should be.



I would say a definite yes to searching our heart to see what lies within. If we do not search our heart and cast away the evil, God says he will search our heart. One may refrain from searching his heart in this life, but God will definitely search our hearts to expose the evil within.



What would hurt you the most - to have one misrepresent your beliefs or have one commit sexual immorality with a loved one of yours?

The cut off date would have to be death. We have our life on this earth to examine ourselves, to ask the Lord concerning any evil within, and seeking His guidance and help to remove any evil within. After death, this is not possible.



I will have to quote Jesus here. In Matthew 11:28, Jesus said, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." A person is given to Christ when he comes to Him.

Again, I will have give you Paul's words concerning inappropriate contentography (sexual immorality). He said each of us SHOULD know how to possess our own vessel in sanctification. If this is what a person has learned from the Bible, I would say it's okay. However, we are told the opposite, that is, to abstain from sexual immorality. I wonder, why would a person want to test the Lord and look at inappropriate contentography. A person who continually looks at inappropriate contentography is taking delight in the evil in his heart, while shaking his fist at God and defying His word.

However, the Lord is merciful. We can't wear out His patience with us.



Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

This comes after hearing the word of truth and believed it. However, does a person believe really believe His word if he continually commits sin against God and the Spirit? If the word of truth says to abstain from sexual immorality, when is it a person believes this? Would you say a person believes this if he continues in sexual immorality?

We have read this in 2 Timothy 2:19 -
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

If you were to visit heaven now, would you see people sitting next to Christ enjoying inappropriate contentography? Would you see them lusting after each other? Would you hear them expelling foul and grotesque sexual language?




I believe you are serious Marvin. And I am certainly serious myself.



Jesus said this in John 5:24 -
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

One must hear His word and believe in Him Who sent Jesus. Believing is not just assent, but actually acting upon His word and living it daily.

We also have this in 1 John 3:14 -
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

I'm sure most here would applaud your zeal for living the holy life. I include myself in that group.

All of us want to live a holy life - sanctified to the Lord.

Just because one's theology is different from yours doesn't equate to us wanting to live in sin or seeing sin differently than you.

Again - I appreciate your zeal. But I must say again, as I have said many times before, that I believe you have put the cart before the horse in so far as the "mechanics" of salvation go.

There is a fine line between just desiring to be all you can be in the Lord in so far as holiness goes - and preaching a gospel of works salvation.

It is my opinion that your view crosses over that line to where it really becomes another gospel from what the Bible teaches.

I truly hope that I am wrong. I've always hoped that the salvation "net" is large enough and pliable enough to bring in many of those who I see as a little shaky in doctrine. That would include the Pope and that would include those Mormon boys who occasionally stop by.

I honestly see the way to Heaven as a little narrower than I would like though.

By that I don't mean some narrow path paved with works. I mean a very narrow path paved only with a complete trust in the sufficiency of Christ's accomplishments to guard us against the day of judgment - regardless of our ability to tow a certain line in life.

I hope to see you on the other side of this life.

 

[John Robie]

Since we were having decent discussions on this on a thread that was closed, I wanted to continue the thought on salvation through sanctification.

John Robie posted this in the other thread - "I've answered your questions. I think you are trying to filter them through your presuppositions and they aren't making sense.

And salvation isn't through sanctification. Sanctification is part of salvation, as I stated in my first post."

Even though John doesn't believe salvation is through sanctification, I will provide a passage which actually states it does.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I also provided a passage which states election is through sanctification.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

If anyone wants to continue our discussion, please feel free to do so.

I'm not sure why you selectively quoted me, and not in whole. Isn't that a bit disingenuous?