Salvation for Jews in the Holocaust?

[Maria Billingsley]

You do realise that Paul was writing these two verses to the saints in Rome, not unbelievers.
The salvation here is not about heaven when you're dead, but deliverance from "philistine, famine and plague", just like in the OT.

For some reason, theologians falsely gave the word "salvation" a whole new meaning when it went from OT to NT.

Yes, I am responding to a Muslim and he deserves an answer.

 

[Francis Drake]

Yes, I am responding to a Muslim and he deserves an answer.

Did I miss something here?
Is the truth of salvation different for some people?
As I said, Paul was not addressing unbelievers when he wrote Rom10v9-10.

 

[Sketcher]

But they didn't accept Jesus as the son of God, so on one hand, would they not be saved?

Some Jews during the Holocaust did. That wasn't enough to keep the Nazis from doing to them what they did to other Jews. Therefore, there were most certainly suffering Jews in the Holocaust who did go to Heaven.

 

[Sketcher]

Strangely added long after this was written…

Deuteronomy 4:2 (NIV)

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

So were Isaiah and the other books of the prophets.

 

[Sketcher]

A) God gives people what they deserve when they die
-OR-
B) some people will be tormented forever.

There is simply no way both can be true. Not a chance.

Who decides what people deserve?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Did I miss something here?
Is the truth of salvation different for some people?
As I said, Paul was not addressing unbelievers when he wrote Rom10v9-10.

But yet the message can be given to anyone without prejudice.

 

[charsan]

Do you think Anne Frank and the Jews persecuted in the Holocaust went to heaven? Did God pity them? Did any of them come to Christ during that time?

If I may I think it will be something like CS Lewis writes in the last Battle:

“Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, though knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.”

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi good question and in a sense you have hit upon the key faith. For sure some were saved in the holocaust as the story of Corrie Ten boom shows many were saved. As for others who did not clearly accept Jesus we can look to Abraham who believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Jesus noted two men in the temple one beating his chest and confessing he was not worthy of Gods mercy and the other saying he was glad he was not like the other man a sinner. Jesus noted one was justified. In Isaiah the LORD notes that he will look upon those with a broken and pentitant heart. So in Rev 5 we see everyone who is in heaven singing a song of praise to Jesus saying you are worthy to take the scrolls and open the seals for you have redeemed us by your blood out of every tribe kindred and nation and we will reign with you upon the earth. Now everyone there was redeemed by the blood of the lamb for sure. But how and when the blood was accounted is up to the LORD not everyone up there more than likely raised their hand and recited a sinners prayer but for sure at some level they called upon the LORD for mercy and acknowledged their sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do you think Anne Frank and the Jews persecuted in the Holocaust went to heaven? Did God pity them? Did any of them come to Christ during that time?

What about the Russians who died in the Russian revolution? What about anyone who was persecuted? Suffering at the hands of man is not a reason to get into Heaven. (I read that around more than 50 million civilians died in WWII. The Jews were only a small number.)

 

[PaulCyp1]

God judges every individual with love and understanding. It is highly unlikely that He would send to Hell people who lived their entire lives worshipping Him, simply because they never had the opportunity to recognize Jesus as His Son.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God judges every individual with love and understanding. It is highly unlikely that He would send to Hell people who lived their entire lives worshipping Him, simply because they never had the opportunity to recognize Jesus as His Son.

I agree He will judge them fairly. I doubt many of them never had the opportunity to recognize Jesus as the Messiah though. Since this is pretty universal in the world, it would be difficult for any Jew to say he never heard the truth, but maybe there are some. In this day and age with information so easily available, the decision not to believe is not usual one of ignorance.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Deleting as the post it is answering is gone too. A satisfying end to a small misunderstanding.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We were talking exclusively of the Jews. We were not talking about everyone in the world. Maybe that was not clear.

I deleted that post.

 

[Dave L]

Do you think Anne Frank and the Jews persecuted in the Holocaust went to heaven? Did God pity them? Did any of them come to Christ during that time?

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:23 (KJV 1900)

 

[solid_core]

The cognitive dissonance here, of course, is that they're trying to hold two completely and fundamentally contradictory statements as true at the same time. It's not about intricate biblical exegesis or fancy theological arguments or anything of the sort. It's simple:

A) God gives people what they deserve when they die
-OR-
B) some people will be tormented forever.

-OR-
C) Denying the eternal Son of God and saying that He was a liar is enough for people to justly deserve the eternal death. (Punishment hypothesis)

-OR-

D) Because the Son of God is the source of life for all people, saying "no" to Him is saying "no" to eternal life. (Willful exclusion from life hypothesis)

"I am... the life"
J 11:25

"I am the bread of life"
J 6:35

"I am the bread of life"
J 6:48

"I am ...the life"
J 14:6

Its logically consistent to accept that when you reject the Lord Jesus Christ you will not have life.

 

[Francis Drake]

It is the blood of Jesus that saves and delivers men from wrath.
From the Garden of Eden onwards, Jesus's blood was and is and always will be the price of man's redemption. This is true for anyone who turned to the Lord, whether or not he understood the message of the cross.

Abraham believed God, and that was sufficient for him to be accounted for righteousness. But take note, righteousness was put to Abraham's account, because it was taken from the value of Jesus's blood.

Anyone who turns to God like Abraham did, gets his account made righteous just like Abraham's was. All at the expense of Jesus's blood, whatever their theology.

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
If men suppress the truth of God, then it must have first been revealed to them.

19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Exactly, God has made himself known to every man by the Holy Spirit.

20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
Despite being invisible, God is clearly seen by every man, again, a work of His Spirit on man's human spirit.

being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
As it says here, "being understood".
All men understand perfectly well in their own hearts that God is our creator, but their rebellion and pride casts that understanding aside.
In the final judgement, nobody will dare to say they didn't understand, or that their church, mosque, temple, shrine, didn't give proper teaching.

This has nothing to do with teaching, it is to do with your willingness to open your heart to the Spirit of God as he convicts you.

 

[d taylor]

Do you think Anne Frank and the Jews persecuted in the Holocaust went to heaven? Did God pity them? Did any of them come to Christ during that time?

Salvation as you say, is and has been the same from the time of Adam to 2020 and beyond.

The better way to say this, is as the Gospel of John states, that what a unbeliever is looking for is Eternal Life. That is what Jesus offers and that offer is found only in The promised Messiah. When an unbeliever (Jew or gentile) , believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of the Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for His free gift of His Eternal Life. They have received Eternal Life never to lose it.

That is all that can be said and no one can be judged, especially in the past as to who has and who has not, trusted in The promised Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[Francis Drake]

Salvation as you say, is and has been the same from the time of Adam to 2020 and beyond.

I agree, but then you go and contradict it below.

The better way to say this, is as the Gospel of John states, that what a unbeliever is looking for is Eternal Life. That is what Jesus offers and that offer is found only in The promised Messiah. When an unbeliever (Jew or gentile) , believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of the Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for His free gift of His Eternal Life. They have received Eternal Life never to lose it.

This is typical Christianese imagination of OT believers.
Tell me anywhere in the OT that expresses concern about eternal life, as opposed to God in present day life?

To OT believers, they saw salvation not as "heaven when you're dead", but as God protecting and delivering them in the here and now from "Philistine, famine and plague" .
They were not placing their faith in a coming Messiah, they were placing their faith in the ever present God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

That is all that can be said and no one can be judged, especially in the past as to who has and who has not, trusted in The promised Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life.

Although there is no proof either way, my bet is that virtually no one put their trust in a distant future messiah.
Most saw the Messiah as a warrior king would drive the Romans out in battle. They did not see him as God, and they didn't see him dying for them.

 

[Rawtheran]

Do you think Anne Frank and the Jews persecuted in the Holocaust went to heaven? Did God pity them? Did any of them come to Christ during that time?

While this may seem like a very difficult question to answer theologically I do not think it is an impossible one to answer and I do think that God can provide the answers we are looking for throughout scripture. First and foremost we must remember that it is only through Jesus Christ that someone can be washed of their sins and be granted access to Heaven. Notice the key words are "through Jesus. So I guess what really begs the question is can someone who is sincerely worshipping God but is ignorant about Jesus go to Heaven? I personally believe that yes they can especially Jews. A key thing to remember is that Jews still believe in God, worship God, and want to have a relationship with him but they are ignorant on how to do this. The reason for this is because the religious elite during Jesus's day knew he was from God but decided to repress his teachings out of jealousy and therefore the truth of the Gospel was not passed down throughout Judaism and eventually the church separated itself from Judaism all together because the successors of the Apostles such as Clement and Polycarp and other Bishops came from Gentile nations and so the baton was passed so to speak which Paul also talked about in Romans. Now does this mean that God has abandoned the Jews? No, of course not. This is even stated by Paul in Romans 11:1 where he states "For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.b2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." God also promised to never forsake or leave the Jewish people and that he would establish an everlasting covenant with them which is seen in Genesis 17:7 where God explicitly says “I will confirm my covenant with you and your descendants after you, from generation to generation. This is the everlasting covenant. So here we can see that God has not and never will abandon the Jews even when they are unaware of the totality of spiritual truth about him. With this established I'd like to move onto my next point and I'll start by asking a question, Does not knowing the whole truth about God and Jesus bring about condemnation? The answer to this is no. The true definition of an unbeliever is someone who fully understands that they are a sinner, understands who Jesus is but decides to reject him. Jews during the Holocaust and today who don't know about Jesus are not under the sin of unbelief because from their perspective they truly are worshipping God the best that they know how to and they are trying to seek a personal relationship with God. The majority of Jews also believe that God will bring a messiah who will save the world even though this has already happened. So really when it comes down to it when we ask the final question about the Jews we ask how then can they be saved? I think that this can be answered by the verse that comes from 1 Samuel 16:7 where God states to the Prophet Samuel: "But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” So really when it comes down to it God is looking at the heart of the individual Jewish person and is discerning whether or not they sincerely want to know God and to love him even if they don't know how. Is the blood of Jesus sufficient for people such as Anne Frank, the Jews in the Holocaust, and the Jews today who don't know God but sincerely want to? I would say yes it is. Everyone whether they admit it or not has some sense of who the creator is and the greatest news of all is that our God is so loving, kind, and patient. He is capable of doing things that we humans could never even think of as possible. While yes there will be people who reject him, God has made a way for all people to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven through his son Jesus. How one enters through Christ is not always something that can be fully understood but we know that we serve a great God who makes that way regardless.